Ultimate Martial Arts

[Spearhead]

From what I've learned and experienced, there is nothing quite as effective for self defense as learning a kickboxing style coupled with an effective grappling technique. I'm looking to start training in both although at the moment I only box.

[Sully]

I would look into mixed martial arts Tyler. There are two known MMA/UFC fighters in the UK. Dan Hardy and Michael Bisbing. But anyway, look into many arts and only use what you see affective in a actual fight.
I would recommend reading into Bruce Lee's philosophy too. Here are some good martial artists too look into.
MMA FIGHTER
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MMA FIGHTER
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ACTION STAR DONNIE YEN
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[SkinnyDevil]

From what I've learned and experienced, there is nothing quite as effective for self defense as learning a kickboxing style coupled with an effective grappling technique.

You mean actual self-defense or you mean for in the ring sport fighting? Combat sports are WAY cool, bu they are not self-defense. They can often be used for self-defense, but their viability in "all settings" depends on how you personally define "all settings", which is dictated by the circles in which you walk.

A 9mm Beretta is a pretty reliable self-defense aid, and superior in most cases to expandable batons, black-jacks, pepper spray, arm-bars, or a good left hook. They have the distinct dis-advantage of being primarily lethal, but then you did say self-defense.

[cherimoya_kid]

You mean actual self-defense or you mean for in the ring sport fighting? Combat sports are WAY cool, bu they are not self-defense. They can often be used for self-defense, but their viability in "all settings" depends on how you personally define "all settings", which is dictated by the circles in which you walk.

A 9mm Beretta is a pretty reliable self-defense aid, and superior in most cases to expandable batons, black-jacks, pepper spray, arm-bars, or a good left hook. They have the distinct dis-advantage of being primarily lethal, but then you did say self-defense.

I think I'd rather have the arm-bar or the left hook in close fighting, than the gun.  I believe I've actually seen studies that said that, at close range, the unarmed fighter is actually more likely to win than the one armed with the gun. I believe the distance was 17 feet.  Inside that range, the gun is no longer effective, because of the difficulty of aiming and shooting at an opponent who is running and dodging at you.  An adult running at full speed can cover 17 feet very, very quickly.

[Nation]

fyi, Andrei Arlovski, a top 10 HW and former UFC champ eats a cooked paleo diet. He didn't use that term to describe his diet but he says he only eats meat, veggies and fruit. For breakfast, he eats a sirloin steak with 8 egg whites and 2 yolks, he specifically asks for no butter.

For reference, see: UFC All Access Andrei Arlovski

[SkinnyDevil]

I think I'd rather have the arm-bar or the left hook in close fighting, than the gun.  I believe I've actually seen studies that said that, at close range, the unarmed fighter is actually more likely to win than the one armed with the gun. I believe the distance was 17 feet.  Inside that range, the gun is no longer effective, because of the difficulty of aiming and shooting at an opponent who is running and dodging at you.  An adult running at full speed can cover 17 feet very, very quickly.

The study(s) you are quoting said nothing of unarmed. They were talking abut a gun vs a knife (with the gun in the cops holster). Never take an arm-bar to a gun-fight...but a knife is actually a good idea.

Basic stats (they vary slightly from year to year because they up-date based on annual reports to police/hospitals) show several things (I'll find the most recent ASAP):

1) 95% of all gun-play happens within 6-9 feet.

2) Of the remaining 5%, 90% takes place within 12 feet.

3) You have roughly a 50% chance of survival if you are shot.

4) You have roughly a 30% chance of survival is you are stabbed/cut with a knife.

If you want self-defense, better get some gun & knife training to supplement your hand-to-hand. Further, that hand-to-hand better be aware of everything from eye jabs to biting to your opponents friends jumping when you're trying to apply that from behind triangle choke or pretty judo arm-bar.

Even Rickson Gracie learned that (again) when he did that now infamous clinic in Texas when they guy from Bussey's camp bit his ear and wouldn't let go while keeping his thumb pressed next to Rickson's eye (the "polite" eye gouge).

[Sully]

Were talking about hand to hand combat not guns. You can carry a gun with you, but many public places and people won't feel comfortable with that.

[SkinnyDevil]

Were talking about hand to hand combat not guns. You can carry a gun with you, but many public places and people won't feel comfortable with that.

Actually, the title of the thread is "Ultimate Martial Arts" and in response to Spearhead's statement, "From what I've learned and experienced, there is nothing quite as effective for self defense as learning a kickboxing style coupled with an effective grappling technique", I asked:

You mean actual self-defense or you mean for in the ring sport fighting?

The conversation has flowed between various sub-topics, but with regard to the title of the thread and the use of the term "self-defense", weapons and multi-attackers and imperfect environments are a reality, whether anyone in certain places feels comfortable with that or not. MOST situations in which you may need to employ any self-defense knowledge/skill won't include a ring, a ref, a list of rules, and 2 opponents squaring off.

That said, I don't mean to imply that guns are the end of the topic. But lack of guns does not mean you're back to hand-to-hand. "Found" weapons (chair, belt, pen, butter knife, rock, tire iron, broken bottle...from lethal to non-lethal options) give you an edge over the unarmed man trying to take your wallet, mug a stranger, rape your girlfriend, or even the asshole at the bar or party who has had too much to drink and is giving you shit about eating raw meat.

Hand to hand is great for the ring, but if you want something that works outside of the ring, you'll want to adjust your thinking beyond kick-boxing and arm-bars.

Also of note: Many traditional "Martial Arts" encompass more than fighting, and may also include positive uses for what seem to be merely fighting techniques.

[cherimoya_kid]

The study(s) you are quoting said nothing of unarmed. They were talking abut a gun vs a knife (with the gun in the cops holster). Never take an arm-bar to a gun-fight...but a knife is actually a good idea.

Basic stats (they vary slightly from year to year because they up-date based on annual reports to police/hospitals) show several things (I'll find the most recent ASAP):

1) 95% of all gun-play happens within 6-9 feet.

2) Of the remaining 5%, 90% takes place within 12 feet.

3) You have roughly a 50% chance of survival if you are shot.

4) You have roughly a 30% chance of survival is you are stabbed/cut with a knife.

If you want self-defense, better get some gun & knife training to supplement your hand-to-hand. Further, that hand-to-hand better be aware of everything from eye jabs to biting to your opponents friends jumping when you're trying to apply that from behind triangle choke or pretty judo arm-bar.

Even Rickson Gracie learned that (again) when he did that now infamous clinic in Texas when they guy from Bussey's camp bit his ear and wouldn't let go while keeping his thumb pressed next to Rickson's eye (the "polite" eye gouge).

My martial arts system approves of and teaches biting.  It's an integral part of any well-rounded self-defense system, in my opinion.  I guarantee my system has about 10x the cheap low-down-dirty tactics of any other, bar none.  He who cheats first and hardest, wins. It's a fight.  It's not a tea party, unless it's a really rough tea party. LOL

Of course, the highest skill is to never to have to actually physically harm someone.  However, it's nice to know some of this stuff, just in case.

As far as weapons training, yes, I have plenty of knife training. Not much gun, but my response to a gun would probably be to hide behind something or run away.  If I can't do either of those, my opponent is probably pretty physically close to me, and subject to bites/kicks/knees/elbows/eye gouges/pressure point attacks, all simultaneously. 

[SkinnyDevil]

My martial arts system approves of and teaches biting.  It's an integral part of any well-rounded self-defense system, in my opinion.  I guarantee my system has about 10x the cheap low-down-dirty tactics of any other, bar none.  He who cheats first and hardest, wins. It's a fight.  It's not a tea party, unless it's a really rough tea party. LOL

What system do you study?

[cherimoya_kid]

What system do you study?

W e i  J i a  T z u  J a n   M e n.  I space it out like that because I don't want certain people googling the name and finding me posting about it here, never mind who. It's a Chinese/Tibetan system with a lot of Hindu, Mongolian, and Indonesian (Silat) influences and forms.   Very old, the system is about 1000 years old, and many of the forms within it are many times older.

[SkinnyDevil]

I tried to google it but couldn't find anything. Is it spelled correctly? Is there a web-site for info?

Silat is some bad-ass shit. I met a guy from Indonesia a coupla years ago who has been in the US for a few years. Supposed to be some major silat guru (according to his pals, he never said a word about it - we just played Indonesian folk songs on guitar for a couple of hours at a party in the Indo-community around here). Trying to hunt him down for some lessons.

I like some of the kali stuff (when they aren't pillow fighting). Ever seen the Dog Brothers? Now THAT is some serious sparring.

[cherimoya_kid]

I tried to google it but couldn't find anything. Is it spelled correctly? Is there a web-site for info?

Silat is some bad-ass shit. I met a guy from Indonesia a coupla years ago who has been in the US for a few years. Supposed to be some major silat guru (according to his pals, he never said a word about it - we just played Indonesian folk songs on guitar for a couple of hours at a party in the Indo-community around here). Trying to hunt him down for some lessons.

You could also spell it Tzu instead of Tsu, Chan instead of Jan.  No, there's no website.  It's a family/monk system, quite secretive.  There are people who teach an open-door version of it, but that's heavily watered-down.  The last inheritor of the system just died about 2 months ago.  Quite a bit of knowledge was lost with him. I stopped studying in 2003, but I had meant to start again this year, but then he died. Oh well.

Silat is the business.  It's one of the most brutal arts in existence.  I suspect that it  started with some moves used to fight tigers in the jungle, based on some of the moves. I could be wrong.

[Sitting Coyote]

Regarding "Ninjutsu", I've been involved in the Bujinkan for about 13 years and I will second SkinnyDevil's motion that it's tough to find a good teacher these days.  What Hatsumi teaches now (and what 99% of all Bujinkan-affiliated teachers teach) is highly stylized and at best marginally applicable to real world self defense.  I believe it was Nagato sensei or Noguchi sensei who made short work of the BJJ guy years ago, but the average non-Japanese 10th dan+ would get mauled by even an amateur MMA fighter today.  Few teachers even venture into the survival arts and stealth stuff anymore. 

If you want a good ninjutsu teacher, you almost have to find someone who started 20+ years ago and who's dropped out of the Bujinkan.  I'm lucky in that I've found just such a person.  We train 2 or 3 times a week, indoors and out, and we train hard.  We do a mix of stand-up fighting, ground fighting, unarmed vs. unarmed, armed vs. unarmed, and armed vs. armed.  About half of our training time is sparring, of one sort or another.  And we practice with a variety of weapons, though focusing on those we might encounter in modern life.

But anyway, I wish you the best of luck finding something that strikes your fancy.     

[miles]

Go back to Judo!

[miles]

Two people I know who went near-Paleo after I gave them some information reported that they have developed a sixth sense for detecting people without seeing them.

Interesting.... That was said of me.. that you couldn't look at me without me knowing and looking back, even from behind. This was after I was eating 'paleo'(cooked meat though). I hadn't related it to anything until now.

[wodgina]

Interesting.... That was said of me.. that you couldn't look at me without me knowing and looking back, even from behind. This was after I was eating 'paleo'(cooked meat though). I hadn't related it to anything until now.

When 100% RPD something does happen, add some crap food and I lose it. I think it's a smell thing. Pheromones or something.

Also it seems RPDer's are more likely to be MMA than new agers.

[miles]

By 'new agers' you mean: Boxers, Judo Players, Greco-Roman and Freestyle Wrestlers?

[TylerDurden]

Go back to Judo!

I love Judo, but, to be honest, it's nothing more than amateur wrestling as it was always meant to be solely a sporty version of Ju-Jitsu. Compared to serious sports, such as Norse Wrestling or Savate , it's purely amateurish.

[Christopher]

Anybody here been able to train brazilian jiu jitsu and Muay Thai at an efficient manner by just eating animals?

[miles]

I'll probably be able to tell you fairly soon. I don't train Muay Thai, but I do Judo daily and that includes one 105min BJJ sparring session(white-belt rules) per week.

[PaleoPhil]

I'm not a martial artist, but I like Bruce Lee's Taoist-oriented open-minded tinkering philosophy that he called Jeet Kune Do , which mirrored Paul K. Feyerabend's philosophy and has since been popularized and further expounded on by Nassim Taleb.

"To Lee, an endless process of trial and error was therefore preferable to establishing [one day's] intuition as an immutable law." (Bruce Lee's Taoist life lessons, http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2009/07/bruce-lees-taoist-life-lessons.html)

Interestingly, some claim that Taoism had many libertarian-type elements. Not being an expert on Taoism myself, I'll refrain from making the claim, but it is interesting that Dr. Taleb seems to have libertarian leanings. There seem to be many interesting connections between Paleo diet/lifestyle, Jeet Kune Do, Taoism, libertarianism, tinkering, and epistemocratic philosophy. There's even a blog that discusses many of these connected phenomena: "Healthcare Epistemocrat: interdisciplinary inquiries into the human condition via essays (+ ancestral fitness n=1 self-experimentation)," http://epistemocrat.blogspot.com/2009/08/ancestral-fitness-choice-architecture.html.

The tinkering philosophy of Jeet Kune Do also seems to be present, albeit in a more brutal form, in Mixed Martial Arts, and apparently with some positive results. I think I read somewhere in this forum that in the ten years or so of MMA tinkering, there has been greater advancement in martial arts knowledge than in the centuries of cerebral debates between various strict schools of martial arts that came before it.

[cherimoya_kid]

I think I read somewhere in this forum that in the ten years or so of MMA tinkering, there has been greater advancement in martial arts knowledge than in the centuries of cerebral debates between various strict schools of martial arts that came before it.

Open-door schools, sure.  However, a fighter well-trained in a closed-door system would destroy every MMA fighter out there. MMA has weight classes.  It's a sport.  You want real fights?  Let people strike the throat and eyes, bite, stomp the throat, etc. THAT'S fighting.  Sport is sport.  I'm not saying you can't use sport to train, but a real fight has more to do with training and presence of mind than speed or strength.

[Dwight]

I take Muay Thai and raw meat helps. In the past I could only go for an hour of Muay Thai but now I can go up to two before I have to rest.
The science of the eight limbs just got a lot better.

Do take note I've not been on this diet for long.

[SkinnyDevil]

The tinkering philosophy of Jeet Kune Do also seems to be present, albeit in a more brutal form, in Mixed Martial Arts, and apparently with some positive results.

You want brutal tinkering, go visit the Dog Brothers.

http://www.dogbrothers.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Zuj5jdY-k