Ultimate Martial Arts

[PaleoPhil]

Open-door schools, sure.  However, a fighter well-trained in a closed-door system would destroy every MMA fighter out there. MMA has weight classes.  It's a sport.  You want real fights?  Let people strike the throat and eyes, bite, stomp the throat, etc. THAT'S fighting.  Sport is sport.  I'm not saying you can't use sport to train, but a real fight has more to do with training and presence of mind than speed or strength.

Right, but I was talking about advances in knowledge and I wasn't comparing MMA to street fighting, I was comparing it to restricted training and competition within various schools of martial arts/sports. They seem to be learning more by very open fighting between martial artists from a variety of schools, using whatever techniques they wish, than they did by restricting themselves to fighting only within a single school or two and not allowing. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm no expert, but this seems to be apparent even to an uneducated person like myself. There were assumptions made about which schools of martial arts would fare best in MMA and the actual results were apparently surprising to many.

[cherimoya_kid]

Right, but I was talking about advances in knowledge and I wasn't comparing MMA to street fighting, I was comparing it to restricted training and competition within various schools of martial arts/sports. They seem to be learning more by very open fighting between martial artists from a variety of schools, using whatever techniques they wish, than they did by restricting themselves to fighting only within a single school or two and not allowing. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm no expert, but this seems to be apparent even to an uneducated person like myself. There were assumptions made about which schools of martial arts would fare best in MMA and the actual results were apparently surprising to many.

Apples and oranges.  I'm talking about legitimate fighting systems whose practitioners can easily beat the best streetfighters.  You are talking about schools whose teachers were never taught more than the oversimplified basic moves, without much integration into real self-defense scenarios, and who cannot fight for squat.  Basically, any school/system that would noticeably improve by learning something useful from current trends in MMA isn't worth much to begin with.

[PaleoPhil]

You want brutal tinkering, go visit the Dog Brothers.

http://www.dogbrothers.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Zuj5jdY-k

Thanks, man. I wasn't actually looking for that stuff at the time, but that's pretty interesting. I'm partial to the Maori style (Mau rakau) because it's visually interesting, and to Maori culture in general. I'm not claiming it's the best or anything--I'll let the martial artists debate that amongst themselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLvwvqcUF70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofybOAqLWZM

The Maori seem to be the only indigenous people who have managed to get back on top, or at least about equal with the modern folk. Maybe because of their fierceness. The Lakota held out for a long while, but were eventually subdued (though they claim they were never defeated, which is cool--love their spirit too and mean no disrespect).

Apples and oranges.  I'm talking about legitimate fighting systems whose practitioners can easily beat the best streetfighters.  You are talking about schools whose teachers were never taught more than the oversimplified basic moves, without much integration into real self-defense scenarios, and who cannot fight for squat.  Basically, any school/system that would noticeably improve by learning something useful from current trends in MMA isn't worth much to begin with.

Yeah, man, I think we're talking about two different things, like you said.

Like the Lakota people, I'm less impressed by talk and more by action. If a martial arts system is good, let's see it win in fair competition in the MMA system or whatever system people choose. If they don't want to try it and actually compete, then I lose interest. When people make claims, I have no way of knowing if they're true or not until I see it with my own eyes.

[Sitting Coyote]

Being able to hold its own in MMA makes a martial art interesting, but I don't think I'd use that as a single criterion to judge a system's worthiness.  The weakness of MMA is its rules and the surroundings in which it is generally done.  One person fights one other person in an open area clear of debris, with rules set up to protect both fighters against groin shots, shots to the back of the head, throat shots, eye gouging, fish hooking, and probably various other things.  Also, both combatants can fight knowing that neither is carrying a concealed weapon and may, at any moment, use it, and both can fight knowing that they aren't going to suddenly be attacked by three more people.

I think the idea of MMA is useful, though.  Any good combative system teaches bodily alignment, striking, grappling, using space and surrounding obstacles, weapons of various types, aerobic and anaerobic fitness, and bodily conditioning.  Until perhaps 1980 or 1985, ninjutsu, now represented by the Bujinkan organization, did all of these, although not anymore.  Some martial arts schools excel in some of these areas, for instance judo and kyudo are wonderful teachers of alignment, and judo and BJJ good styles to train in for anaerobic fitness. 

I think it's worthwhile to try out a lot of systems.  Any one system has lots of holes, and as you try out others you can fill them, one at a time.

[PaleoPhil]

Being able to hold its own in MMA makes a martial art interesting, but I don't think I'd use that as a single criterion to judge a system's worthiness.

Nor would I. Like I said, if someone has a different way of testing things that they think would be better, then by all means demonstrate it. I'm just not impressed by all-talk.

[Sitting Coyote]

...if someone has a different way of testing things that they think would be better, then by all means demonstrate it.

Best way I've found is sparring.  My training partner/teacher and I spar almost every training session, and we often treat sparring as a way to experiment with different things.  We've sparred in his home dojo, in fields with tall grass, in forests, on narrow bridges over streams, in crowded alleys with garbage all over, etc.  Sparring is a very effective way to weed out bad combative techniques, you just need to be willing to sweat, bleed and nurture a few bruises.

[PaleoPhil]

If sparring is superior to MMA, then someone should create a sparring competition to prove it and invite all comers. Otherwise, it's still just talk, sorry.

[Sitting Coyote]

If they cared enough to prove it, they might.  But if they didn't feel like they had something to prove, or their priorities regarding family, work, etc. were such that being recognized as the world's greatest martial artist was low on the list, they probably wouldn't bother.

[SkinnyDevil]

If sparring is superior to MMA, then someone should create a sparring competition to prove it and invite all comers. Otherwise, it's still just talk, sorry.

I should point out here that the video I provided of the Dog Brothers is one such competition. It is also worth noting that they attempted to find audience with the UFC, who told them they were too extreme (the back-story & letter is available on their web-site). It's also worth noting that there are numerous competitions across the globe that don't have the press & coverage that UFC gets, but are just as valid.

I don't think anyone is saying sparring is "superior to" MMA events. But the point is valid that MMA events (from pancration to UFC, not to mention all the other combat sports available) are designed for a specific focus. Participation in UFC alone, for example, hardly proves who is the best fighter or whose system is superior. It only proves who is best when fighting under VERY specific conditions on THAT particular day.

But don't be fooled for a moment that just because a guy is good in a boxing ring, on a wrestling mat, or in a MMA cage, that he is necessarily prepared to deal with multi-attacker situations, or personal protection situations (guarding others), or a bad guy wielding a gun or knife, or even a one-on-one situation on a debris littered parking lot in the semi-dark of an urban night.

There will never be a single event best suited to test one's mettle. That's the beauty of diversity.

[PaleoPhil]

...There will never be a single event best suited to test one's mettle. That's the beauty of diversity.

Here, here. The more, the merrier. That fits the philosophy of trial and error beautifully.

I wasn't advocating for MMA as a "perfect" medium for testing martial arts, that would contradict my point, which was that trial and error and actual doing produces more convincing results and more learning than just sitting around theorizing and talking or competing only against those who share a similar style/philosophy/art/etc. If there's a superior medium to MMA, then by all means promote it. If the UFC won't allow in the Dog Brothers, then perhaps the Dog Brothers could some day create their own competition and invite all comers, including people from the UFC. They would have to abide by the laws of whatever country they held the competition in, but if they felt that their current country is too restrictive they could always hold it in another country. There's often some nation somewhere willing to allow just about anything.

As for people not wanting to prove anything, that's fine too. I was only talking about advancing learning through trial and error, with more doing and less talking. This is what would interest me as an outsider. If someone's not interested in doing that, there's no law that says they have to.

As a side issue, one of the most difficult problems in martial arts competitions in which money is involved is cheating/fixing/corruption. I don't know how one could avoid that. It seems to be a catch-22, when money is involved there tends to be cheating, but without money the poorer potential competitors can't afford to participate.

[SkinnyDevil]

Well said.

[Raw Kyle]

I spar in mma training. I'm not sure you guys are using all these words properly.

When it comes to "street fighting" or whatever you want to call it, that stuff is so random you can't really train much for it. Many a fight scene in movies is ended by one character happening to land near a blunt object, or get to the gun.

I would put all of my money on a top mma fighter against a street fighter though, because the top mma fighters are very gifted athletes and train for hours every day. That much training makes you so much quicker that even if the street fighter was going to try and use a tactic illegal in mma rules, like groin shots or biting, the mma fighter would have destroyed them with punches or kicks or grappling by then. Sometimes it's better to become good at a couple of things then allow everything. Muscle memory is one of the most important parts of any sport, and also fighting. The speed at which a top mma fighter would knock out a normal street fighter who exposes their chin for one second the wrong way, or would choke someone out on the ground who put themselves in the wrong position, would render illegal tactics useless.

In essence, the danger of illegal tactics locks in some of their poor usability. You can't "train" to kick someone in the groin, gouge their eyes, etc because your training partners would quickly either die, become unable to continue helping you train or decide you're not a very good friend. Just like with mma sparring, I can't through a full force punch or kick at someone's head very often, which is why punching bags and pads and mitts were developed.

In that perspective I think grappling is superior because you can actually perform the best grappling tactics in training, like chokes and joint locks. Thus you can perfect those techniques on a live opponent more then someone could perfect an eye gouge or bite.

My whole thesis here is that a perfected move is most times better then the freedom to do any move but not having perfected any of them. That's why I believe most top mma fighters would beat street fighters even in a strange location with things lying around to use.

[PaleoPhil]

...You can't "train" to kick someone in the groin, gouge their eyes, etc because your training partners would quickly either die, become unable to continue helping you train or decide you're not a very good friend. ...

Spetsnaz troops were trained in such streetfighter techniques during the Soviet era (and I would think likely still are), and some of them did die during training, according to the retired Spetsnaz men in this program: http://www.spike.com/full-episode/green-beret-vs/32039

[cherimoya_kid]

I spar in mma training. I'm not sure you guys are using all these words properly.

When it comes to "street fighting" or whatever you want to call it, that stuff is so random you can't really train much for it. Many a fight scene in movies is ended by one character happening to land near a blunt object, or get to the gun.

I would put all of my money on a top mma fighter against a street fighter though, because the top mma fighters are very gifted athletes and train for hours every day. That much training makes you so much quicker that even if the street fighter was going to try and use a tactic illegal in mma rules, like groin shots or biting, the mma fighter would have destroyed them with punches or kicks or grappling by then. Sometimes it's better to become good at a couple of things then allow everything. Muscle memory is one of the most important parts of any sport, and also fighting. The speed at which a top mma fighter would knock out a normal street fighter who exposes their chin for one second the wrong way, or would choke someone out on the ground who put themselves in the wrong position, would render illegal tactics useless.

In essence, the danger of illegal tactics locks in some of their poor usability. You can't "train" to kick someone in the groin, gouge their eyes, etc because your training partners would quickly either die, become unable to continue helping you train or decide you're not a very good friend. Just like with mma sparring, I can't through a full force punch or kick at someone's head very often, which is why punching bags and pads and mitts were developed.

In that perspective I think grappling is superior because you can actually perform the best grappling tactics in training, like chokes and joint locks. Thus you can perfect those techniques on a live opponent more then someone could perfect an eye gouge or bite.

My whole thesis here is that a perfected move is most times better then the freedom to do any move but not having perfected any of them. That's why I believe most top mma fighters would beat street fighters even in a strange location with things lying around to use.

YOu are quite the comedian.

Yes, you can very much train the illegal and deadly techniques. 

As to who would win, MMA or streetfighter, I agree that the MMA fighters would have a slight disadvantage. 

As to who would win, MMA or real-deal Asian martial arts...please.  It's not close. It's just laughable.

That's not to say that there's not a smooth gradient between them all.  You can find people with a decent amount of experience in 2 or all 3. The best Asian martial artists dominate them all, though, if we're comparing the best in each area. If you don't know it, you haven't studied, and I will laugh at you.  ROFL

[miles]

If someone is good at kicking*, it wouldn't be too hard to modify that to kicking someone in the balls. If someone's good at getting rear naked strangle*, well apart from being able to strangle them out anyway it wouldn't be too hard to modify it to a neck-breaking crank.
If someone's good at take-downs/throws* it wouldn't be too hard to throw someone on to their head, over a drop, into a wall or something. If someone's good at punching* it wouldn't be too hard to modify that to punching someone's nose in or whatever...

*In real-time combat-situations, e.g. MMA.

[PaleoPhil]

If someone is good at kicking*, it wouldn't be too hard to modify that to kicking someone in the balls. ...

Hey, thanks for the idea!   

[nicolegreen]

I'd like to restart martial arts after a very long time away from Judo(I was a green belt). I like Judo for the hefty exercixse involved(it's like wrestling), but I'd also like something more combat-based, these days.

I've heard lots of good things about Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, but have also heard of how Ninjutsu-practitioners(led by Hatsumi) beat them hollow in Japan in those trial-fights that the BJJ guys like to setup to "prove" the superiority of their art. I'm certainly not in favour of any too specialist martial arts like taekwondo(too focused on the legs) or self-defence(like aikido). I want to kick someone's butt!

I've also heard of Krav Magna but it sounds too Israeli-specialised or whatever.

Anyway, any recommendations/suggestions?

If your looking for something combat based I would highly reccomend Krav Maga. BJJ is fun to learn and spar but you state here that you want to kick someones butt (haha) then Krav would be your place to start. A lot of BJJ, cannot be applied to real life situations and personaly as someone who has taken classes in multible MMA styles, and as a female that walks the streets to one of the most dangerous cities in the United States, would never recomend them as self defence. Spetsnaz is ok as someone previously stated, but learning to throw an knife while back flipping out of a jeep is never going to be used by myself. Its combat training using weapons and taken to a level that most civilians will never go, where Krav Maga is based on disarming, neutralizing a threat, and avoiding injury mainly without weapon use or using nearby objects. Its hard to find a good Krav Maga instructor or school just due to the violence of technique but I promise you it is the most extreme work out I have ever had. If your going to learn something combat based this will teach you everything that you need to know. MMA isn't real combat applicable, ask anyone in the armed forces in the middle east whats taught and they will tell you Krav over any other. But don't get me wrong, Krav is not MMA, its not to be taken lightly or played with. This fighting style is extremely dangerous and I wouldn't recommend anyone that wants to learn for cage fighting/MMA due to accidental death. Learning this is the best thing that I've done for myself besides changing my diet!

[PaleoPhil]

I think some day I may try learning martial arts. I would prefer a defensive style over a lethal style like Spetsnaz training, because I'd be looking to learn more about increasing confidence, discipline, survival skills, physical health and enjoyment than killing ability. I'm very impressed by the knowledge here. Much of it is beyond my current comprehension.

[William]

I think some day I may try learning martial arts.

God made men. Colonel Samuel Colt made them equal.

[PaleoPhil]

God made men. Colonel Samuel Colt made them equal.

LOL! Jokes like that are one reason why I like having you around, William.

[Raw Kyle]

As to who would win, MMA or real-deal Asian martial arts...please.  It's not close. It's just laughable.

That's not to say that there's not a smooth gradient between them all.  You can find people with a decent amount of experience in 2 or all 3. The best Asian martial artists dominate them all, though, if we're comparing the best in each area. If you don't know it, you haven't studied, and I will laugh at you.  ROFL

Here's a few videos I found straight away on youtube. Never have seen a video of an "Asian martial artist" beating an mma fighter. I'm confused as to what that means in the first place, many mma fighters are Asian, and many use Karate, TKD, Muay Thai etc...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlleDPgmDVM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCv8wClAC38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6mMtHqXyYc

[cherimoya_kid]

Look, I'm not talking about strip-mall karate/taekwondo/etc.. I'm talking about arts like Tai chi, xing yi, ba gua, (though I'm not excluding karate/TKD/etc. either) etc. Granted, the lines get extremely blurry, but basically, I'm talking about family systems and monk systems.  MMA is just a mish-mashed smorgasboard of oversimplified, crude versions of the real arts. A skilled practitioner of one of the "pure" family systems can easily defeat the biggest, most muscular, fastest, strongest MMA fighters. 

My point is, a high-quality family system can defeat a low-quality mishmash of oversimplified arts, which is what MMA is today.

What's a high-quality family system?  That's not easy for a newbie to find out.  You usually need several years of training in a very average system to even get good enough to judge the skills of other practitioners well.

Also, most of the better systems don't let just anybody study.  You usually have to do a few years of the basic stuff before being allowed to learn the real stuff, although there are some rare exceptions.

So, to sum up, if you study with the best in the world in all of the following: Muay Thai, Greco-Roman, boxing, sport TKD, etc., you are still not going to have the skills to defeat a high-level fighter in one of the better family systems.

To be fair, the best fighters in the family systems usually learn at least a little grappling, kicking, boxing, etc.  The differences between the best systems are pretty small, once you get to the highest levels.

Meanwhile, though, I'd put myself against any of the MMA fighters in a no-holds-barred match, and maybe even an MMA-style bout, and I'm only about 140 pounds, and 5'8".  It's not size/speed/strength, it's training. I am extremely fast, but that's not why I feel sure of my prowess. I was fast before I got the best of my training, but I wasn't nearly as good then.

I'd also put any MMA fighter against thousands of pot-bellied Chinese grandfathers who have taught high-level tai chi, ba gua, etc.. Those old guys, the better ones, could easily beat Ken Shamrock, et al.

If you don't believe it, you can fight me, or I can direct you to some of my fellow students, or I can point you to the parks in the bigger cities that have large Chinese populations, including New York, San Fran, and any city in China.  Good karate and TKD systems are also quite badass, although not quite at the same level, I think.

[Sully]

I started off in tradition northern kung fu. Learning forms, basic 12 Tan Tui, spear forms, etc. etc. I also learned some wing chun from a friend.

I started martial arts at age 13 at the http://www.chinesekungfucenter.com/
Very traditional, pretty much nothing but adults there since its not that entertaining to your average younger 10 and under kids. I payed about 40 bucks a month (pretty cheap). Becuase I was under 16. I went there for about 2 years. I always did tons of training at home. Because my shaolin classes were only 2 days a week.

I however, don't do kung fu forms anymore now at the age of 18. My martial arts growth was very similar to Bruce Lee's. His philosophy was hack away at what you see unessential. Simple is effective.  Have a style of no style.

I must admit though. I built a marvelous foundation at the kung fu center. Holding horse and mountain climbing stances (also known as bow stances). Doing Tan Tui over and over repetitively. We did tons of frontal heel kicks in that class. Pretty much in all the forms. But in truth, the basics I learned were the most important things, and which I still use till this day.



By the way. The founder of that school was Grand Master Yin from Taiwan.
http://www.chinesekungfucenter.com/master.html

[cherimoya_kid]

I'm not against MMA-style training.  What I think bugs me about it is that it's the same rules, all the time.  Great fighters definitely spar with rules, but they mix it up in training a lot more, like "no punches, only grappling" for 2 or 3 minutes, then "no kicks", then "no hand techniques", then "only one hand", then "no hands, versus two opponents", etc. You mix it up, keep changing it.

[SkinnyDevil]

Here's a few videos I found straight away on youtube.

Sweet. I have an old VHS tape of those Gracie fights with Rorion Gracie doing the narration. GREAT stuff. I like when Rickson mauls the judo guy from Russia.