Ioanna's Journal

[alphagruis]

There is not unanimity about "unambiguous positive effects":

http://www.zhion.com/kimchi_cancer.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/kimchi
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7813983
Food safety and toxicity by John De Vries--according to this book, fish paste (fermented soy and fish) and stinky cheeses (fermented cheeses) are particularly high in toxic amines, much more so than sausages (fermented meats). Fermenting soy seems to produce the most toxins of any fermented food. I've always been skeptical of natto and this makes me even warier of it.

However, I'm also skeptical that the cancer correlations in the fermented food studies are actually causative to the extent that the study designers think. My guess is that the probiotic effects of these foods offset the toxicity somewhat. Overall it does seem like every form of food preservation produces some toxins. Whether the flora in a healthy person are able to handle them all or not and what actual effects they have, I don't know. It's interesting that moist high meats produce some of the least toxins of all the food preservation methods--the opposite of what most moderners would think.

It is not a good approach to reason in terms of toxicity as an absolute quality of a given food component (true for glucose, proteins, fats and even "toxic" amines, AGEs or right handed ( or otherwise damaged) amino acids etc). Everything is a matter of dose and actually the only thing that matters is whether or not a given food is healthy as a whole thing or better if that whole food in the context of a given diet is healthy. The only way to know for sure is either to experiment over many generations   or merely look at all the experiments that Nature has already done on us with traditional diets and foods that obviously maintained people in much better health than that of the 21 th century american or european civilized people. Once there will be clear evidence that our modern analytic and reductionist approach will be able to maintain us in better health than these cultures were and tell us more safely what we should eat or not to stay in good heath over many generations I'll change my mind.

In the sense you refer to toxicity there is toxicity in everything. Even the best foods are a trade off. Do you know that among usual meats or foods  raw meat from ruminants such as beef for instance or also  many raw sea foods contain (because of the major role of symbiotic bacteria in these animals digestion) naturally the highest amount of D-amino acids, the same kind that is formed from normal L- amino acids upon cooking by racemisation and that cannot be used to build proteins or enzymes in humans. Obviously  we all agree in this forum that this does not make beef meat "toxic".

Note also that I was referring to some traditional fermented foods and not their various modern more or less systematically denaturated forms. Traditional sauerkraut will certain poison nobody with an excess of salt or other additives as modern versions (of actually almost all modern foods) might do.  

In other words I think we should show much more humility before we prematurely dismiss by means of highly reductionnist reasonings some fermented foods that permitted many cultures to stay in much better heath than we are over many generations. Even if this is at odds with our present (obviously temporary) point of view.
 

[PaleoPhil]

I think we should show much more humility before we prematurely dismiss by means of highly reductionnist reasonings some fermented foods that permitted many cultures to stay in much better heath than we are over many generations.

Coincidentally, I was eating sauerkraut as I started to read your post, so obviously I don't hold any of the extreme views you discussed in your post and I hope you're not implying that I intended any of them with my post. I only offered additional information to show that there is not unanimity that "fermented fish or meat (high meat) or vegetables such as cabbage (sauerkraut)" have only "unambiguous positive effects". Any interpretation assumed beyond that was not intended. I favor humility and a holistic, rather than reductionist, approach to science and knowledge and I have tried to make that clear in the past. You're preaching to the choir on that if you're directing any of it to me. Instead of unambigious or absolute positives I think more in terms of net overall positives.

So, for example, even though I developed some throat mucus after my first ingestion of raw organic sauerkraut (which could have been coincidental) produced by a local family farm inspired by more "traditional" methods of preparing foods, I continue to try it on the chance that it may benefit my gut flora and bowels--a benefit that other people have reported (though some, like Tyler, have reported no benefits). If I continue to derive no benefit from it then I likely will eventually cease the experiment, but I'm not going to eat it forever just because you claim it has "unambiguous positive effects." Call me skeptical, if you wish (and please do ), but I require more evidence than you're say-so.

Note also that I was referring to some traditional fermented foods....

How traditional is sauerkraut? Is it traditional in the sense of a staple food of Stone Agers or "traditional" in the sense that some people use the term of predating the industrial era?

To tie this in with the thread, we cannot assume that all people will react the same to various forms of food preparation. Ionna reports being sensitive to jerky dehydrated at 85F by a dehydrator, whereas I don't notice any negative reaction to it other than that it doesn't digest quite as well for me as air-dried or fresh meat. Still other people have reported actually digesting dehydrator-dried meat better than fresh meat. Presumably we can't rule out that different people might also react differently to foods preserved with fermentation.

[TylerDurden]

Well, no one has ever reported having problems with high-meat - well, except in a positive way. 1 woman complained that if she had any high-meat in the evenings, she would feel so wired and full of energy and wide awake that she couldn't sleep that night. The simple solution was to eat the high-meat in the earlier part of the day. That was it.

[PaleoPhil]

Here, here! And I haven't had any problems from my high meat either, and I highly doubt that they would have a net bad effect on most people's health, though I also haven't noticed any of the benefits that others report. It's strange that I get more of a "high" from my fresh and aged raw meat and fat than I do my high meat, but that could be because of quantities consumed. And, like I said, I'm also skeptical about the cancer correlations re: most of those fermented foods. Correlation does not equal causation. Still, to claim that there is unanimity on these foods being unambiguously positive would be to ignore the existence of those who disagree. Plus, I think most of us can agree that fermented soy foods are probably not healthy. The highest ethyl carbamate levels were found in fermented soy products and heated wines, neither of which is raw Paleo. All fermented foods are likely not created equal. Just because fermented soy products are likely unhealthy does not necessarily mean that fermented meats are. So I would rephrase it thusly: "some fermented foods appear in contrast to have even net overall positive effects."

[alphagruis]

Paleophil, my point was not to invite you or anybody else to try or regularly eat a specific fermented food whatever it is. Also I never said that all fermented foods have positive effects or are healthy.

It was just to recall ( probably in an inappropriate or unfortunate phrasing, I beg your pardon ) once more that from a pure scientific point of view we should not reject a food just because some of us, with digestion and health impaired by years on an inappropriate SAD,  had a  temporary bad experience with it. In this case we all (me too) tend to find  usually highly questionable rationalizations of our experience. A basic flaw of our human mind.

Sauerkraut is of course a neolithic food and by "traditional" I meant indeed just the way it was prepared and the cabbage grown predating the industrial era.

Finally by unambigous positive effects I had in mind a comparison to the relevant raw (just as it is) food namely raw fresh cabbage  in the case of sauerkraut.

I finally believe that fermentation is probably a unique most remarkable example of processing invented during the neolithic with overall positive ( as opposed to usually negative) effects when compared to the relevant unprocessed paleolithic food.  

[PaleoPhil]

Paleophil, my point was not to invite you or anybody else to try or regularly eat a specific fermented food whatever it is. Also I never said that all fermented foods have positive effects or are healthy.

Yes, I know, and I added "some" for clarification, in case some might misinterpret.

...we should not reject a food just because some of us, with digestion and health impaired by years on an inappropriate SAD,  had a  temporary bad experience with it.

I agree, and I would add that we also shouldn't assume that everyone else will do well on a food just because we do, which is another common error in dietary forums.

Finally by unambigous positive effects I had in mind a comparison to the relevant raw (just as it is) food namely raw fresh cabbage  in the case of sauerkraut.

For whatever reason I so far my stomach seems to handle raw fresh cabbage slightly better than sauerkraut. I have no idea why. It's too early to tell if the difference is significant.

I finally believe that fermentation is probably a unique most remarkable example of processing invented during the neolithic with overall positive ( as opposed to usually negative) effects when compared to the relevant unprocessed paleolithic food.  

I don't know a lot about fermented plant foods, but I did note that Sally Fallon recommended restricting kimchi and sauerkraut to "condiments." So she appears to be arguing that they are good in limited amounts, but not as staples. She didn't explain why in the article, unfortunately. I don't know whether she's right or wrong on this.

One thing I do know is I've never liked the taste of vinegar and will only eat vinegared foods if they have lots of garlic or spices added to mask the taste of vinegar. So my "instincts" are telling me not to eat vinegar. It's interesting that the taste of high meat and traditional sauerkraut don't bother me as much, though I can't say I care for those tastes either. So for the time being I'm ignoring my "instincts" re: high meat and sauerkraut because of the positive reports that other people make and because humans have probably been eating rotted meats from day one.

Wouldn't fermented (high) meat and fish go back much farther than the Neolithic? After all, even dogs bury some of their meat and bones and I've seen a video of two lions protecting a rotted zebra carcass like it was "pure gold".

[MrBBQ]

Do you mean "invented" as in creating controlled conditions for native bacteria on a food to thrive and change the state of the food? Fermentation is of course fundamental to nature, so it's as natural a process as one can achieve (like that in the controlled environment of ruminant stomachs and our own GI tract). So how is fermentation neolithic, other than that the natural principle was applied to preserve neolithic crops grown by humans? Fermentation is of course critical to all life on Earth...Humans merely accidentally observed and utilised the principle...

[Inger]

i am great with ground beef or bison though, even better when aged. 

That is quite intresting that aged meat goes better with you, pemmican (raw) don't. I wonder if it matters to eat a lot of dried meat. 
I sometimes do. But I love aged meat too, like you eat it.

I wish I could find cheaper Bison meat, I pay 70 € / kg. here in Hamburg.   I love Bison/Buffalo.


Inger

[alphagruis]

Do you mean "invented" as in creating controlled conditions for native bacteria on a food to thrive and change the state of the food? Fermentation is of course fundamental to nature, so it's as natural a process as one can achieve (like that in the controlled environment of ruminant stomachs and our own GI tract). So how is fermentation neolithic, other than that the natural principle was applied to preserve neolithic crops grown by humans? Fermentation is of course critical to all life on Earth...Humans merely accidentally observed and utilised the principle...

I mean controlled fermentation is essentially a neolithic invention since it needs the invention of some artifices (pots, barrels, fridges etc). Technically, in principle, fermentation is the process brought about by favoring the growth of specific anaerobic strains of (among all native ones) bacteria in fish, meat, vegetables or fruits. In nature much more complex processes spontanenously happen and are more appropriately called rotting, drying, ageing etc involving also aerobic bacteria, fungi etc.    

[alphagruis]

I agree, and I would add that we also shouldn't assume that everyone else will do well on a food just because we do, which is another common error in dietary forums.

I agree completely, indeed another very common pitfall.

For whatever reason I so far my stomach seems to handle raw fresh cabbage slightly better than sauerkraut. I have no idea why. It's too early to tell if the difference is significant.
I don't know a lot about fermented plant foods, but I did note that Sally Fallon recommended restricting kimchi and sauerkraut to "condiments." So she appears to be arguing that they are good in limited amounts, but not as staples. She didn't explain why in the article, unfortunately. I don't know whether she's right or wrong on this.

I believe Sally Fallon is most likely right. When I occasionnaly eat such foods it's always spontaneously in limited quantities though they may taste great initially. I had apparently never adverse effects with them.
  

One thing I do know is I've never liked the taste of vinegar and will only eat vinegared foods if they have lots of garlic or spices added to mask the taste of vinegar. So my "instincts" are telling me not to eat vinegar. It's interesting that the taste of high meat and traditional sauerkraut don't bother me as much, though I can't say I care for those tastes either. So for the time being I'm ignoring my "instincts" re: high meat and sauerkraut because of the positive reports that other people make and because humans have probably been eating rotted meats from day one.

I don't like the taste of vinegar either and don't eat or use it. It's fermented wine where acetic acid results from fermentation as opposed to fermented vegetables where lactic acid results from fermentation.

Contrary to what Burger still claims with his "instincto" it is often wise and even sometimes a vital necessity to ignore our so called "instincts" or more appropriately from a scientific point our plain smell or taste perceptions upon choosing and/or eating our food. You can believe me this ideology of "instinctive" balance of our diet is just a myth that cannot work actually for many reasons.    

Wouldn't fermented (high) meat and fish go back much farther than the Neolithic? After all, even dogs bury some of their meat and bones and I've seen a video of two lions protecting a rotted zebra carcass like it was "pure gold".

Yes I basically agree, though one might argue that rotting is not, from a technical point of view, just a fermentation, same with ageing or drying of meat. Ageing or fermenting as we do it now needs usually an artifice such as a fridge.

[TylerDurden]

Alcohol is supposed to have come about because humans in the Palaeolithic era went in for eating fermented fruit which has alcohol in it. Beer etc., though seems to be a purely Neolithic invention.

As for pots and pans, they were a Neolithic item basically but it would have been possible to store fermented foods in the hides of hunted animals.

[Iguana]

Contrary to what Burger still claims with his "instincto" it is often wise and even sometimes a vital necessity to ignore our so called "instincts" or more appropriately from a scientific point our plain smell or taste perceptions upon choosing and/or eating our food. You can believe me this ideology of "instinctive" balance of our diet is just a myth that cannot work actually for many reasons.

Sorry but I’m opposed to any form of beliefs, so I can’t just believe you : you should explain your statement and also explain how to know what to eat raw if we ignore our instincts.  

We already had several discussion about it, especially on http://paleocru.webatu.com/forum/ but your arguments failed to be convincing or did beat a dead horse, stating obvious facts that GC Burger never disputed. Insulting him and your old friend myself as you did in the end was to no avail.

[alphagruis]

Iguana,

http://paleocru.webatu.com/forum/index.php/topic,55.msg263.html#msg263

Je n'ai pas de temps à perdre avec les hypocrites et les faux-jetons. La tentative de dialogue avec Burger ou ses disciples(s'avérant être de sourds) s'arrête donc définitivement là, comme je l'ai dit plus haut.

[TylerDurden]

Well, wild animals appear to find the right (raw) foods for themselves when in the wild. Things like preferring raw organs etc., which seem more to do with instinct than sentient intelligence as such.

On the other hand, one does see wild animals deliberately targetting processed junk-foods from bins(due to addictive opioids in the stuff, I imagine). There have also been plenty of cases where wild animals have become addicted to alcohol etc. So, instincts can be easily subverted(I can think of my cravings for raw dairy pre-rawpalaeodiet).

[Iguana]

On the other hand, one does see wild animals deliberately targetting processed junk-foods from bins(due to addictive opioids in the stuff, I imagine). There have also been plenty of cases where wild animals have become addicted to alcohol etc. So, instincts can be easily subverted(I can think of my cravings for raw dairy pre-rawpalaeodiet).

Of course, and this is accounted for in the instincto theory which just says that our alimentary instinct can work properly only with stuff “not modified by any artifice of conceptual intelligence : an aliment as it is directly given by nature, for example as an animal can obtain it in its natural habitat.”

In the wild, alcohol is barely available  in amounts sufficient to get addicted. Dairy  is no longer available at all once the offspring is separated from mother. Processed food has never before been available to animals, so the fact that they deliberately target it confirms Burger’s findings.

[PaleoPhil]

... favoring the growth of specific anaerobic strains of (among all native ones) bacteria in fish, meat, vegetables or fruits. ...

From what I've learned, it appears that the good bacteria in high, aged and raw meat are aerobic, not anaerobic, which is apparently one reason why Aajonus says to make sure to occasionally expose the meat to oxygen. This is important, because the anaerobic meat bacteria are apparently all pathogenic, since no one has been able to name a single anaerobic meat bacteria that isn't pathogenic.

As for the bacteria in lacto-fermented veggies, I learned that they are actually facultative anaerobes, not obligate anaerobes, which means they can tolerate oxygen. When I've asked, no one has been able to name a single obligate anaerobe that isn't pathogenic.

[alphagruis]

This is an interesting topic. I hope Ioanna won’t mind if we get astray and comment briefly on it in her journal.

 Before the appearance of cyanobacteria, the microorganisms capable to get the energy that runs them from sunlight by reduction of water and carbon dioxide and production of oxygen gas, all living organisms were a priori necessarily anaerobes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria

Until that event roughly  2  to 3  billions years ago,

 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v455/n7216/full/nature07381.html

 oxygen was essentially a deadly poison for the then existing forms of life (microorganisms only ) and essentially absent in earth’s reducing atmosphere.

These ancient microorganisms that were obligate anaerobies had to die out with the appearance of cyanobacteria because of progressive build up of the latter ‘s highly « toxic waste product » namely O2.

Today the living organisms not only must have adapted to the presence of oxygen but indeed many of them either heavily depend on it’s presence., in particular all the multicellular organisms , or use it preferentially whenever it’s possible because it has much much higher energetic efficiency.

The attempt to classifiy the now existing microorganisms as anaerobes or aerobes is thus probably vain. These organisms are actually capable to adapt to very different conditions and obtain their energy either from anaerobic glycolysis when oxygen is not available (in alcoolic or acetic fermentations for instance) or from aerobic complete oxidation of glucose and fatty acids when oxygen is available (at the surface of  ageing or drying meat) . Even our own cells are capable to adapt in this way  for instance muscle cells in intense brief effort (anaerobic glycolysis) versus prolonged and more moderate effort ( complete aerobic oxidation of fatty acids and glucose). It is also interesting to note that rapidly proliferating cells such as yeast or cancer cells must work in anaerobic mode because they  cannot completely oxidize their glucose or fatty acids whose partial metabolic products are needed as cell construction material.

I’m inclined to believe that even the attempt to classify bacteria or microorganisms as good or bad is probably often vain too. Just think of a microorganism such as candida albicans.. All healthy humans  (women)  shelter it in their gut (vagina) and this is good so but this becomes bad in SAD poisoned people by change of  the « terrain » and  proliferation at the expense of other  normally present microorganisms .

As to aged, dried or fermented meat I also agree, Paleo Phil, that this is probably best done in the presence of air. Much more tasty, no offensing smell.  Yet does this mean that anaerobic fermentation of meat or fish  results necessarily in an unhealthy food ? Apparently not. Just think about some traditional fermented fish foods in Sweden or eaten by natives of Canadian Pacific coasts or just fermented cod liver oil. Also in meat drying in air anaerobic bacteria are probably at work in bulk.

 

[Ioanna]

So excited!, I just got cast in 'Much Ado About Nothing'... one of my fave plays.  Not NYC or London, but still I'm happy and think it will be fun.

I think I finally figured out why initially there was only one source of meat that was working for me... this source ages their meat!  Probably that's why only one full 24hr period of aging made so much of a noticeable difference too.  Seems I just need to replenish gut flora and then maybe I can eat more foods!  Still without veg/fruit for now as these foods seem to go thru me undigested and cause a lot of pain in the process. But maybe one day...  so, after some experimenting, I am back to meat and fat, and have yet to incorporate organ meat.  I am trying more varieties of animals though.

Next on my list, I really want to learn to surf!  

[djr_81]

Great to hear things are going good for you Ioanna.

My increasingly main source for meat ages their stuff for 21 days before sale and it does make a big difference. It sits better and tastes much nicer.

[Ioanna]

Thanks Dan!

It's like now I can actually understand why my digestion fell apart, seemed so inexplicable before. I think I finally get it, gosh that took (seemingly) forever!




Mom is coming to visit at the end of the month.... she's gonna be horrified at the site of my fridge!

[ForTheHunt]

Give fruit some time.

When I first started eating fruit my stomach hurt and it didn't sit well.. Now a few months in I feel better then I've ever felt and look better then I've ever looked.

It was the same with rzc first time around, my heart felt very heavy and my pulse become very high.. Your body takes time to adjust to new foods.

[PaleoPhil]

Give fruit some time.

When I first started eating fruit my stomach hurt and it didn't sit well.. Now a few months in I feel better then I've ever felt ....

That's what I was hoping for, and I think I've found a very small level of certain fruits that I can handle reasonably well, but fruit still gives me problems nearly a year after starting VLC. Are you able to eat large quantities of fruit without problems?

[wodgina]

Hi I

I caught up with an old friend recently who was a severe IBS sufferer. We lost contact but the last time we were hanging out he got so skinny due to the IBS that his lung collapsed and was hospitalised.

Now five years later I ended up at his 'World Cup Party'  he's married now to a cool chick, owns 3 houses, eats KFC and is really happy. All IBS free. He tells me it's because he stopped caring about what people thought and also stop stressing about IBS.

Your cure from diet his from finding peace. Interesting.

[miles]

No... His cure is also from diet...

[Ioanna]

Hi I

I caught up with an old friend recently who was a severe IBS sufferer. We lost contact but the last time we were hanging out he got so skinny due to the IBS that his lung collapsed and was hospitalised.

Now five years later I ended up at his 'World Cup Party'  he's married now to a cool chick, owns 3 houses, eats KFC and is really happy. All IBS free. He tells me it's because he stopped caring about what people thought and also stop stressing about IBS.

Your cure from diet his from finding peace. Interesting.

Interesting about your friend!  I'm so interested to know about how got to this peaceful mindset, and what kind of journey that was for him.  And you are sure he is not taking any medication??  With medication I can eat anything and think I'm fine, but I it's important to me not to consume any kind of pharmaceuticals.

I have constantly (since onset) in the back of my mind wondering if there is some mental component. Addressing this has never been helpful though, only diet, and thinking this way only made me even more mad at myself.  But now that I am well I am so sure it's not in my head.  I wouldn't say I've found peace, but I am in the best and happiest place that I have ever been, yet still if I deviate there will be consequence within the day. Sometimes foods I think will be perfect don't work at all (e.g. truly raw pemmican, un-aged marrow), and sometimes the opposite that foods i think will be not good at all end up digesting just fine. It's definitely been an adventure learn to listen to myself, and now that I finally can I know I'm going to be just fine.