Lex's Journal

[PaleoPhil]

I still don't understand how collagen is supposed to help the prostate. Am I dumb?  ROFL

Let me get that for you 

[cherimoya_kid]

That's fascinating.  Thanks Phil.

See, that makes me suspect men with Lex's issue might be deficient in some trace mineral.  Here's why.

I noticed that, when I ate raw clams regularly, that my fingernails were stronger and harder.  After eating a couple dozen clams a week for about a year, my nails starting being brittle and splitting.  I stopped eating the clams, and now, 3 months or so later, they're not brittle anymore.   They're still strong, though. 

There may have been some vitamin in the clams that was helping my nails, but I much more suspect a trace mineral, since clams are filter feeders, and therefore extremely high in trace minerals.  I figure I finally managed to get enough of that mineral, and finally even overdosed on it a little.

[PaleoPhil]

Well, the main protein in fingernails is keratin, rather than collagen, but minerals and collagen do reportedly help strengthen the nails, in addition to collagen-rich tissues (http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/minerals-aid-collagen-production-9485.html) like the wall between the prostate and bladder. Clams are rich in iron and also have some chromium, calcium and selenium. Lex's diet is already rather high in iron.

Since collagen is a major structural/connective substance in the various wall tissues of the body, whenever I hear "prolapse" in any area of the body, I know that collagen is involved, and probably also elastin or other proteins (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110524070316.htm) in these connective tissue defects. Of course, the pressure of a growing prostate also puts tremendous strain on even strong connective tissue.

Zinc is an important mineral for collagen and the prostate and Lex's reports did show him a bit low in zinc. Oysters are rich in bioavailable zinc. However, like Lex said, absorption is probably more important with zinc than intake. So I don't know how well he would absorb zinc from oysters. I've been seeking info on how to improve zinc absorption myself and I suspect that improving gut bacteria might be one route. I don't have rock solid evidence that would stand a chance of convincing Lex, though. It's also an interesting coincidence that gut bacteria tend to be scant on mostly-meat diets.

[cherimoya_kid]

Well, he definitely wouldn't want to eat clams if he's low in zinc.  Clams are very high in copper, which is antagonistic with zinc.

[lex_rooker]

I'll let you know if it spoils, but I keep tubs or jars of it in the fridge now.   As far as water left in,,  I do know that any liquid that is apparent will  settle to the bottom of the jars or tub and can be poured out afterwards.  The 'trick' is to put it through a meat grinder with a small sieve.  The fat then comes out like spaghetti.

I always grind my fat before rendering as well. Renders much faster.

Large drops of moisture will settle to the bottom but without enough heat I've found that there is a good bit of moisture throughout the tallow as well.

I then put it in a ss colander with a weight on top suspended over a bowl, in a large pan with either water that I keep at 100 f or whatever works.   

This is interesting.  Putting the fat under pressure while rendering.  I never thought of this.  The more saturated fats may not melt but they surely will soften significantly and under pressure you may be extracting more than I would have expected.  I may try this just to see for myself.

 

    I think the guy on Charles' was me, I got banned for talking about organs and grass fed.  Other than the fact that the forum has about five active members, or so it seems,  I am surprised that Charles hasn't yet run into health problems.  It will be interesting to see in another ten years of eating just walmart meat. 

No, it wasn't you,  it was a guy using an amusing user name and I can't remember what it was (something-Joe I think).  His wife had lyme disease or something and she did well on pemmican.  I also think he said he raised is kids on pemmican as well.  The kids were something like 3 and 5 as I remember- two cute boys.

I was fairly active on Charles' forum for awhile.  Even went to one of his "meat ups" when he came to Los Angeles.  I got kicked of the forum when I dared to state that it was possible to gain weight on a meat and fat diet after the body had fully adapted to it.  Charles refused to believe this and said I was no longer welcome on the forum so I left.  I heard a couple of years latter that Charles was gaining weight and he couldn't understand why.  I was told he was blaming it on all sorts of things other than the fact that once the body fully adapts to a dietary protocol it then can use all the calories available and you can gain weight.  Not sure what he believes now.  I've pretty much lost touch over the last 2 or 3 years.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

Phil and Cher-Kid,
I took chelated zinc supplements for several years and that didn't seem to have any effect.  Don't know if it was due to the form of the zinc or lack of absorption or both.  I only know that it made no detectable difference in lab results or anything else I could find.

Lex

[van]

Zinc.   I wonder if the land where the cows are raised,  think it's Texas, where Lex gets his beef from, is low in Zinc?   But just as interesting, is why might he be low if there is sufficient zinc in his meat, which is noted for supplying zinc?    Lex,  I have bought for many years a variety of sproutable dark green pumpkin seeds that come out of Austria,  I believe, that are sold by sunfood.  Europeans have for generations used pumpkin seeds just for prostate health.  I have heard this over and over.  I used to travel to Europe for many years, and would always bring them home.   I soak and sprout for a day each and then in the fridge they go in a collander.  I snack on them, and are completely different than all the pale green dead unsproatable rancid chinese pumpkin seeds that fill the health food stores these days.  They are touted for being high in bio-available zinc.    Couldn't hurt, is my opinion.

[lex_rooker]

Van, Phil, and others looking for a single magic supplement:
For about 5 years I've been taking supplements prescribed by my doctor that contain lots of zinc supposedly from pumpkin seeds, (that's what it says on the label), as well as bio sources of selenium and a host of other co-factors that are supposed to support prostate health.  None of it has done any good.

As I've said before, I've done all the conventional things as well as many unconventional things, all without success.  At this point I don't think any single supplement is going to shrink my prostate.  At least none have done so over the past eight or nine years.  And in fact, my prostate continued to grow during that time.

If the issue could be solved with something as simple as oysters, pumpkin seeds, ginger root, saw palmetto, lycopene, Glutamic acid, Lysine, African pygeum, Stinging Nettle, Pomegranate, Quercetin,  Vitamin D3, Vitamin E, Vitamin B6 complex, Vitamin B12, various berry extracts, Beta-Sitosterol, manganese, magnesium, selenium, chromium, molybdenum, copper, silicon, boron, vanadium, etc, etc, etc, Did I mention a raw meat diet?  I'd have been cured long ago.  All of these popular supplements were prescribed by my doctor (with the exception of the raw meat diet).  If they have done anything at all, they have only suppressed the symptoms.  They did nothing to address the cause or stop, or reverse prostate growth.  Iodine did seem to lower PSA a bit, but didn't have any effect on prostate size, growth, or symptoms.

So far, just about everything that has been recommended on this forum has been researched and/or tried by me and thousands of other men, and to my knowledge, supported by my urologist, they have no effect other than to temporarily relieve symptoms.  The relief can be for months or years (8-9 years in my case).  Ultimately, for most men, the prostate will continue to grow until the supplements and drugs lose their effectiveness.  This is the point where I'm at today.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

Phil and Cher-Kid,
I took chelated zinc supplements for several years and that didn't seem to have any effect.

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Don't know if it was due to the form of the zinc or lack of absorption or both.

I suspect both.

Van, Phil, and others looking for a single magic supplement:

Not me, I don't believe in magic and I'm actually looking for ways to improve my body's functioning so that I eventually don't need any supplements at all, with luck. You must have me confused with someone else. I guess I need to add yet more caveats and explanations to my posts. It gets boring and time consuming, but it looks like it's needed.

For about 5 years I've been taking supplements prescribed by my doctor that contain lots of zinc

That's interesting that your doc was also concerned about zinc, presumably due to the combination of your somewhat low zinc measures and the connection between zinc and prostate issues, yes? Sounds like you have a rather good doc.

As I've said before, I think you're right that absorption is more important with zinc than intake (it's as if you read my mind on that--we seem to think alike on a number of things). Unfortunately, it seems that not many docs or scientists have explored this,  not even the rare docs that bother to consider nutrients at all, so we're left with mostly guesswork.

I don't think one single magic bullet is going to help either you or me. Nature is way too complex for that. Instead, the most beneficial therapies are likely to be multi-factorial and difficult to figure out. If chronic health problems could be easily solved with single-factor magic bullets, there wouldn't be much need for diet/health forums.

---

Unfortunately, the recommended therapies for improving the body's ability to absorb and produce nutrients tend to be so far-out, that I doubt you'll take them seriously, but I'll try to remember to post about them some day when I have a bit better understanding of them myself. Even if none of them help the prostate, they may help in other ways.

[lex_rooker]

Well today was a big day.  After five days they removed my urinary catheter.  I thought this would be a simple matter as I could have easily removed it myself, but apparently the urologist takes no chances of having problems.

First a correction.  For the initial test to see if a catheter is necessary, I voided less than 30ml in one hour.  When they inserted the catheter, I voided 560ml, not the 800 I put in my previous post.

From the amount voided during the initial test, they determine minimum time the catheter should remain in.  In my case it was 5 days.  For many that require a catheter it is 3 or 4, and from what I understand about half go home without a catheter.

Today I was scheduled to go in to have my catheter removed.  I found out that my urologist doesn't just remove the catheter, he runs another void test to make sure I am able to void properly.  I've been told by several that have had the same treatment that their urologist doesn't do the void test.  They get a catheter at the end of the procedure for three days, whether they need it or not, and then they return and the catheter is removed.  If they have problems then it's back to the office (or emergency room if the office is closed) to have the catheter put back in.  The people I talked too all had trouble voiding, but struggled for one or two days without catheter and things got slowly better.

When I went in today, I was sent to an exam room and a nurse came in with 500ml of sterile water and a 100ml syringe (sans needle).  She started injecting the water into my bladder through the catheter, 100ml at a time, until I told her that I had serious urgency to urinate.  For me that happened at 300ml.  She then pulled the catheter out telling me to release the water into a measuring cup.  She said I had to void all 300ml or the catheter would be put back in for 3 more days when the test would be run again.

I passed with flying colors and was able to go home without a catheter.  Even so, I was given instructions to go home and immediately drink a liter of water followed by a half liter one hour later.  I was then  to measure my urine output until I voided at least 1 liter.  If this took more than 4 hours I was to call the office for instructions.

Glory be, I passed this test as well so it looks like I'm good to go.  My next appointment is Oct 14th.  Not sure what happens then.  Will report on my progress as this adventure continues.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

Déithe a mholadh!

[lex_rooker]

Déithe a mholadh!

I don't think there are 2 h's in moladh... but I could be wrong.  I'm certainly not an expert, but Google tells me so...

Had to look it up!

Lex

[van]

All right Lex!   That waiting can be one of the hardest things.   Let's hope time heals.

[cherimoya_kid]

Good luck. 

[PaleoPhil]

I don't think there are 2 h's in moladh... but I could be wrong.  I'm certainly not an expert, but Google tells me so...

Had to look it up!

Lex

Nicely done! The Irish were never much for spelling (or writing, generally), anyway, so maybe they'll forgive me.

[lex_rooker]

Last night I was talking to an engineering friend of mine who is a little older than I am, and he had the same procedure that I just completed back in 2007.  Like me, he wanted concrete evidence of the effectiveness of the procedure so he came up with a way to measure urine flow rate with a stopwatch and a measuring cup.

It's rather simple and probably not particularly accurate, but all we care about are relative readings anyway so it is an interesting place to start.  He tracts volume voided in milliliters and time to void in seconds.  Dividing seconds into milliliters gives milliliters per second.  My friend has been tracking his urine flow for over 15 years and he could easily see significant differences when he started taking Flowmax, the taper off as Flowmax started to have less effect, then the TUMT procedure etc. etc.

Unfortunately, timing the flow of urine when you have BPH is not simple because you often have stops and starts in flow.  In his and my case we have a main flow where about 75% or so is voided, then a stop followed in a few seconds by a second flow which is much smaller in volume.  Since the second flow is small he decided to ignore it but let it continue to add to the total volume in the measuring cup.

So his procedure is to start flow into a measuring cup and as soon as the first drops hit the bottom of the cup start the stopwatch.  As soon as the main flow stops, immediately stop the stopwatch.  Let any second flow add to the volume in the cup.

The thinking here is that flow usually starts somewhat slowly, goes to full strength, then tapers off and stops.  The volume of the second flow just compensates for the tapering flow rates at the start and stop of the initial void.  What we want to know is max flow rate so this compensation probably brings us closer to that value than if we didn't do this.

Normal average flow rates for males depends on age.

From age 4 to age 13 average flow rate is 10-12 mL/sec
From age 14 to age 45 average flow rate is around 21 mL/sec
From age 46 to age 65 average flow rate is around 12 mL/sec
From age 66 to age 80 average flow rate is around 9 mL/sec

Between last night before going to bed and 9am this morning I was able to make three measurements.  The first, at 10pm came in at 6.25 mL/sec.  The second at 5am came in at 5.58 mL/sec, and the last at 9am this morning came in at 6.25 again.

As you can see, I'm worse off than the average 80 year old.  There should be little effect of the TUMT procedure and any effect this early after the procedure would probably slow flow rate due to swelling.  I'll be doing this test weekly capturing all data over a 24 hour period and then averaging to get an average daily flow rate.  Will post the results as things change.  Let's hope the change is significant and for the better.  My urologist said not to expect to see much change for at least three to four weeks.  After that there should be steady improvement for up to 3 months.  Things should level off after that.

I now have a way to test this and compare relative readings starting from today onward.

Lex
 

[paper_clips43]

Praying for a speedy and healthy recovery for your Lex. That was quite a lot to deal with man and congratulations on getting the catheter removed. I had a catheter in for 3 days when I was hospitalized after rupturing my spleen. It was more annoying and painful than the injury and I had to make them remove it on the third day.

I noticed how many supplements, remedies, diets, and cures you have tried and am wondering how bone broth never made it on your list? You even have experienced the Rife Machine which I was “this” close to buying one but stopped because of your experience with them. Or at least decided to hold off...

Still though I have to ask. Would you consider supplementing with bone broth/collagen/gelatin for a period of time and see if it helps at all?

I am three weeks into about 30-40 grams of collagen protein a day now and still seeing improvements. I understand it could takes years to notice real changes although so far I hope to continually have it in my diet for a long time.

[lex_rooker]

Still though I have to ask. Would you consider supplementing with bone broth/collagen/gelatin for a period of time and see if it helps at all?

Sorry but I'm just not interested in making bone broth.  I eat lots of collagen/gelatin/marrow as part of my diet, it's just not cooked into broth.  There is a large amount of connective tissue in my food which is the source for extracted collagen and gelatin.  I prefer to eat mine raw and complete rather than cooked into a broth where the solids (and an unknown amount of nutrients) are discarded and or damaged by heat.  I have to ask myself why I would want to supplement with a cooked partial form of these nutrients rather than just eat the uncooked complete nutrients just as other animals do.

I'm all about what works, and if bone broth is working for you then that is wonderful keep it up.  My diet has worked well for me for about 8 years now and I'm very happy with it.  Many problems have been resolved and only BPH remains as a significant issue.  There's just nothing in bone broth that makes me believe that it's worth the trouble.

With three weeks into your protocol you have a long way to go.  Let's see if you are still convinced that bone broth is the key to health 10 to 20 years from now.  I know that when I became a vegetarian/vegan about 45 years ago, I thought I'd found the dietary holy grail.  It took 25+ years to realize things were not turning out as advertised on the vegetarian front and after about 30 years I finally got the courage to switch to paleo. 

For me, paleo, VLC, ZC is still new. Eight years is not an overly long track record compared to an expected lifespan of 80 to 90 years.   I make no claims for it nor do I recommend it to others. Right now it seems to be working well for me.  However, if things change and I start to see problems, I'll change in a heartbeat.

My BPH is not a result of the paleo lifestyle.  It started in my vegetarian/vegan days well before paleo.  BPH was just one of the many problems I hoped that paleo would solve.  Alas, it is the last remaining problem and it seems paleo was not the answer.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

For anyone that's interested, raw bone broths are also possible (acids and fermentation, instead of cooking, can be used to leach the nutrients from the bones and connective tissues--dogs and wild animals bury, ferment and gnaw on bones, BTW, so Lex's emulation of wild nature in his raw eating heuristic comes interestingly into play here). It was discussed in a thread somewhere.

I'll just toss out another shameful speculation too that I hope Lex doesn't mind--pastoral peoples that eat lots of red meats and not a lot of veg tend to also consume not only lots of bone broths, but also dairy and teas. Is it just coincidence that Europeans are prone to hemachromatosis and that dairy and teas are believed to deplete heme iron (to the point where pastoralists typically traditionally added blood to milk, perhaps to avoid anemia?)? I don't know. If anyone has high iron issues, this may be an area of inquiry to consider. As always, I'm not prescribing, just exploring and  learning.

[paper_clips43]

Thats great you eat your gelatin and connective tissue raw Lex. I do as well just not as much as I would like, hence the broth. I hope to move entirely back to raw and believe the broths are going to help me transition.

Do you have any links to raw methods of gelatin extraction paleophil? And are you saying, or theorizing, that because people are depleting their iron levels with dairy and tea that bone broth is more needed due to high iron levels?

[lex_rooker]

--dogs and wild animals bury, ferment and gnaw on bones,...

Hmmmm, didn't think of burying my food before eating. Maybe that's what I'm missing.

Is it just coincidence that Europeans are prone to Hemochromatosis and that dairy and teas are believed to deplete heme iron (to the point where pastoralists typically traditionally added blood to milk, perhaps to avoid anemia?)?

Interesting that you came up with a dietary explanation/solution for hemochromatosis.  When I looked into this issue several years ago, the most common thinking was that parasites tend to deplete the body of iron and in our natural environment we most likely would have been loaded with parasites as are most wild animals.  Our bodies evolved to conserve iron for this reason.  The problem today is that we seldom get parasites that would deplete iron stores, so our body's hording of iron, which evolved as a survival mechanism, now works against us, and is seen as a genetic flaw.

I think obesity and diabetes are similar.  In our natural environment carb sources would have been seasonal.  We certainly would have gained weight when eating them which would prepare us for lean times during the winter.  Today there are no lean months, and rather than a seasonal splurg, carbs have become our primary food source all year around, and obesity and diabetes are now common place.  Of course our medical profession sees this as disease, and looks for genetic flaws to explain it. 

Is our craving of carbs and the putting on weight by consuming them genetic?  I think certainly.  Is this a flaw?  I doubt it.  It's what has allowed our species to survive lean times. Just a guess, but I tend to think many of our metabolic problems are are likely due to our corruption of the natural food cycle.

I find it fascinating that hard won evolutionary advantages that served us well for tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of years, are now considered to be genetic flaws and a state of disease.

Lex

[ys]

I think bone broths are totally not needed for proper collagen formation.

Collagen/Gelatin breaks down into standard set of amino acids during digestion.  The same amino acids anyone can get from any animal products.

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, Lex, helminths are of course another big factor in avoiding iron overload. Is their utter annihilation in the USA yet another reason to consider ways to reduce iron accumulation?

Not only would carb sources have been seasonal, but some of them would have been bletted or fermented, which increases prebiotic fibers and bacteria, which in turn increases generation of SCFAs. Should we utterly ignore these aspects of nature and just assume that modern practices are sufficient?

It's quite true that today there are no lean months. The fractal/intermittent nature of nature has been replaced with chronic habits based on pleasure-based preferences. The hard aspect of nature is largely being ignored.

[lex_rooker]

Should we utterly ignore these aspects of nature and just assume that modern practices are sufficient?.....

It's quite true that today there are no lean months. The fractal/intermittent nature of nature has been replaced with chronic habits based on pleasure-based preferences. The hard aspect of nature is largely being ignored.

I suppose the question is how important are these natural cycles?  We tend to focus on the specific foods we should and should not eat, but seldom do we look to emulate the natural cycles of food supply in nature.  Could it be that the annual cycle of eating far less food in late winter and becoming very lean into spring could be just as (or more) important to overall health as the specific foods consumed?

I know from horticulture classes I've taken that plants grown in a hothouse appear fleshy and robust, but are actually much weaker than the same plants forced to deal with their natural environment.  A hothouse grown plant will die when suddenly faced with an extreme change in environment, where its scrawnier sibling in the wild will handle the same change with ease.

Maybe we've turned ourselves into the equivalent of hothouse plants that look robust but are actually rather fragile because we've been sheltered from our normal environmental cycles.  We have all the same foods plentifully available all year around.  We heat our environments in the winter and cool them in the summer such that we can no longer tolerate wide temperature changes.  Could this be a significant source of our modern day maladies?

Another story comes to mind that might illustrate the point further.  Many years ago my grandfather came to live with us after grandma died.  He brought along his little dog, a mix of pomarenian and pekingese, weighing about 12 lbs.  The dog was about 8 years old and had always been a house dog.   It had heart trouble and digestive issues, was taking a lot of medications and wasn't expected to live much longer.  My dad said that it wasn't good for dogs to be in the house all the time and insisted that the poor little dog sleep outside.  We lived in the San Joaquin Valley and it easily reached 108+ in the summer and below freezing at night in the winter.  We were all sure that the poor dog was going to die in the first month.  That didn't happen.  The dog actually got better. Within 6 months she was no longer on any medications. She grew a thick coat in the winter and shed profusely in the summer months.  And she lived to be 14 - very old for her breeding.

Anyway, the importance of exposure to natural environmental cycles is an interesting question that is not much discussed.

Lex

[van]

makes sense,  Jack Kruse is writing profusely on the same subject, and seems to have quite a lot of data collected.  Sport teams are using cold therapy in a unique fashion also with big results, supposedly.