Lex's Journal

[lex_rooker]

I received a note from another raw meat eater on another forum stating that when he eats a food mix of Slanker Dog and Cat food, Ground beef, and fat, he soon experiences a very loose and smelly bowel movement.

Unfortunatley I've noticed the exact same thing since Slankers changed processing plants.  They used to use Kilgor and now they use Four Star.  I've spent the last few weeks tracing down the problem and find that is is caused by the Dog and Cat food.  If I leave the D & C out and just eat the regular meat everything is fine.  If I add even a small amount of D&C to the mix (4 oz D&C to 2 lbs Chili meat) the problem reoccurs.

It appears that the D&C is now contaminated in some way - probably with an unfriendly bacteria.

Since the D&C is not USDA inspected and approved for human consumption there is little that I can do.  Slankers has made it clear that their pet food is not for human consumption and if I chose to eat it, that is my problem.

What I have found out is that Four Star is a much larger processor than Kilgor and so they may have separate facilities and equipment for the non-inspected products.  This means they wouldn't have to follow USDA health standards in that part of the plant as the equipment is never used for products that require inspection.  Just speculation but certainly a possibility.

It looks like I'll be eating just the regular ground meat and fat products as the loose bowl problem is very annoying.  This will also give me the opportunity to see just how important organ meats are to health.  I’ve been eating the D&C just to make sure I get a good variety of organ meats.  However, other long term zero carb raw meat eaters have eaten only muscle meats and experienced no problems whatsoever.  I’ll be leaving the organ meats out of my diet for the next 6 months to 1 year and we’ll see how I feel and how my lab results change.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

Why not buy equivalent amounts of Slanker's organ meats and grind them into your mix? Too much work?

[PaleoPhil]

E-
I thought salt would be a major contributor to the fluid retention also, however, I eat several meals out during the first week of the month and though they are always steaks, they are often loaded with salt.  I've seen no evidence of fluid retention caused by this. My meals for the rest of the month contain only a small amount of salt and there is little difference in my weight and no evidence of edema in hands, feet, or legs during the first week as compared to the rest of the month.
...

So you think you would get edema if you regularly cooked your grassfed meats?

[lex_rooker]

So you think you would get edema if you regularly cooked your grassfed meats?

No I don't think so and I don't think I ever said so.  I only know that I got a bad case of edema from eating bacon, eggs, and sausage as my only food for an entire week from the breakfast buffet at a seminar I attended.  These are all highly processed foods with tons of chemicals.  Cooking is the least of their problems.

Why not buy equivalent amounts of Slanker's organ meats and grind them into your mix? Too much work?

I could do this but it is a lot of work and I'd prefer not to do it if I don't have too.

Lex

[van]

  Lex in regards to your earlier post re. needs for organ meats, you might want to try to eat according to taste desire.  I continuously go in and out of wanting different organs.  If it doesn't taste good or appeal to me, then I don't include it.  It's interesting, when it's on my plate, and when I 'want' it,  my fork goes to it all by itself, as it seems.  Very interesting to witness, and then to notice the appeasement in the mouth. 

[Raw Kyle]

Bummer about Slanker's changing it up on you. I found the easiest way for me to do the diet is to cut up muscle and fat into bite size pieces for the majority of my meals, and then occasionally, usually on the weekends, thaw out an organ and eat bite size pieces of that for a few meals until it's gone. I don't think organs are necessary to stay alive and relatively healthy in the long term, but I think people would be better off including organs once in a while.

[Nicola]

I received a note from another raw meat eater on another forum stating that when he eats a food mix of Slanker Dog and Cat food, Ground beef, and fat, he soon experiences a very loose and smelly bowel movement.

Lex

I understand that this raw meat mix causes this kind of reaction in your bowels (it triggers the movement) - it's not that it goes threw you? Charles mentioned the same from just eating raw/underdone meat...loose and smelly bowel movement. Perhaps it's nothing to do with bacteria?

Nicola

[primavera]

That's too bad.  My dad was thinking of buying d&c for himself, but I showed him your post and not anymore.  However, my dogs seem to be doing great on it!

[van]

My speculation as to why Charles has ‘problems’ with raw is two-fold.  First, he eats Wall mart meat, from animals which aren’t healthy to begin with.  I suggested to him to simply go to a feedyard and use his senses to judge how healthy the animals are that he is eating.  The whole animal, and not just its intestines, is full of the garbage from which it eats.  Then it is butchered and processed in meat processing plants which sees hundreds of other similarly toxic animals every day.  The likelihood for bacterial contamination is almost certain.  Charles also eats a lot of ground beef.  Another source of potential contamination.  For who knows what went into the mixture, and from how many contaminated ‘cutting boards,’ and or mixers etc….  Then as I have posted before, I have had the enlightening experience of having gone through a cleansing when I started to eat raw tuna several times a week, and not just an occasional eating out at a sushi bar.  What happened was that for over a month I passed copious amounts of mucous filled runny stools, three times a day.  Literally cups of mucous, stringy material.  I thought my intestines were falling apart and were passing into the toilet.  I had eaten from the age of four, canned tuna at least three to four times a week.  My body was heavily built from the cells of heat damaged, canned tuna.  When given a chance, by eating raw fresh tuna, my body exchanged raw healthy ‘cells’ for the damaged cooked ‘cells,’ or, it cleansed itself.  Normally people think of fruit and vegetable juices as nature’s cleansers.  But many, including myself, believe that raw proteins are far more aggressive or effective at ‘cleansing’ the body.  I would have quickly stopped with eating raw tuna had I not had the support of the Instincto group in France to calm me down when I would call them, telling me that indeed it will pass, and everything will normalize; that everything will be fine.  So I understand how most can’t or won’t go through this experience. For we want to think that this particular something or other is causing the problem, when it actually exists inside of us.
   And then there’s the thought that one could start slowly eating say a teaspoon of raw the first day, and increasing and or substituting more raw for cooked each day.  This might help one more gently ease into a raw diet and not experience all the reactions at once.  But I don’t know, I haven’t tried it.  I went raw overnight in the early seventies.

[lex_rooker]

That's too bad.  My dad was thinking of buying d&c for himself, but I showed him your post and not anymore.  However, my dogs seem to be doing great on it!

Rather interesting situation.  I had about 4 days of food mix (the one with the 4oz D&C per pound of regular ground meat), so I decided to finish this off rather than waste it.  For the last two days I haven't experienced the loose bowel problem at all.  Not sure what's going on now.  The mix is from the same batch of D&C that was causing the issue before so I have no idea why the problem should go away unless it is a stronger immune system response or something.  We'll see.   I think I'll continue with the lighter mix of D&C and monitor what happens.

As I've written before, I'm no longer convinced that organ meats are critical to maintianing health, but have continued with my mix of pet food and regular ground meat as 'insurance'.  I'll plod along with a lighter mix of D&C and if all goes well, I'll ramp back up to the heavier mixture and see what happens.  Will report what I find in my journal along the way.

Lex

[Josh]

Just a thought...different areas have different microorganisms around.

I know that from certain belgian abbey ales...they just let them ferment with whatever yeast and bacteria are around rather than adding things.

Could be a case of adjusting to something slightly different?

[PaleoPhil]

Lex, I continue to have some nice, moderately euphoric highs after eating lightly during the day and then having a big meal of raw meat, tallow and water at night. Did you experience this? If so, how long did it continue?

[Paleo Donk]

Hey Lex, Just read through about almost all your journal. I found it very fascinating, informative and learned quite a bit and now have a bit of a man crush on you. Thats said I have a few questions and comments about it.

On your 31 day distilled water fast you said you lost 84 pounds which is around 2.75 a day. The fasting studies Ive seen show a weight loss around 3/4 -1 lb a day if memory serves me correct. This would mean you lost 3-4 times as much weight. Even though you kept quite active during the fast it seems like this alone would not make up for the difference. Is there something to the distilled water that causes you to lose an absurd amount of water weight?

You also say how you believe that it might be the case that certain amino acids are always converted to glucose. Ive read just the very basics of biochem but I do remember a small part on dna- that when it transcribes its code on the ribosomes it breaks down the sequence into three nucleotides (AGT, CTA, for example). From these nucleotides it would determine which of the 20 amino acids to pick to add to the protein. Every single amino acid is mapped to a certain three letter sequence of the code. From this I would guess that all amino acids are indeed used when dna gets transcribed to create proteins. Surely some are used more than others and that possibly each amino acid would have a relative frequency of conversion not an absolute 0 or 1. Then again I dont know much...

Also, if you could, give us more insight on Del Fuegos (from the ZC board) all pemmican diet? I think you only briefly mentioned that we do need bacteria. If you read his posts it seems like he has turned his family into some sort of borderline demigods. He seems to have extreme amounts of sensitivity to small changes in diets. He claims to notice differences in energy and mood with different ratios of fat and just general preparedness of the pemmican. He also said that when he switched to an all raw meat diet his entire family started getting angry and their overall seemed like a nightmare of an experience.

all i got for now - keep up the tremendous work

[halotek]

First off, just wanted to say how impressed I am with this journal.  I came to this site thinking there was going to be some crack-science going on -- but you are very candid with your medical results, and that is such a benefit to everyone.

I am extremely interested in trying to somewhat figure out the puzzle of what constitutes sufficient vitamin and mineral intake for man.  Because you are basically eating a diet that is 100% animal products (which don't really have anti-nutrients in them) I'm sure your vitamin intake is more than sufficient (with one caveat).  For people who eat cereal grains with phytic acid, they even have to worry about minerals being directly leached out of their body.  Mineral intake on your diet is a little more tricky though-- I'm glad your getting a comprehensive bone scan, I'm interested to see if you can maintain calcium balance with such low intake.  With a diet so low in anti-nutrients, you probably just don't need as many minerals.

The caveat I have is with vitamin c intake.  I'm sure you are trying as hard as you can to do this diet without vitamin supplementation, but it just seems that humans need to get a decent amount of this nutrient.  All humans are in a catch 22, to get vitamin c you have to eat foods that are potentially damaging (such as fruit and veggies).  I looked through your tests to see if I could find your uric acid level-- I'd like to know that.  Higher than usual uric acid levels are usually caused by fructose (which you don't eat), or by eating high purine foods (sometimes), or by very low vitamin c intake.  I have this nagging feeling that your A1c test would even benefit from increased vitamin c intake-- because vitamin c can protect many types of molecules from oxidation.

I'd also like to ask you why you think it is that you really don't think you can tolerate up to 50grams of some type of carbohydrate a day?  If it really is the case that 57% of your protein gets converted to glucose-- why not just find some type of carbohydrate that you can tolerate to fill in.  I would also say that your high A1c level may be due to the amount of protein in your diet-- coupled with low vitamin c intake-- and the lack of protective compounds (which are actually toxins) in plant materials.  Protein requirements are almost certainly lower with additional carbohydrates in a diet.  We are really making strides in understanding why have "some" plant compounds are so benficial to us.  The hormetic effects of plant compounds really seem to shine.  The act of processing the toxins in the plants or fruits is what makes us stronger-- having a diet so devoid in toxins (such as a 100% meat diet)  deprives the body of this hormetic benefit (I'm not saying to eat a lot of plants-- just a little!)

Lastly, going back to mineral arguments-- do you think your potassium levels are ok on a diet that is so low in plant materials?

btw-- I wouldn't give up the organ meat component of your diet if you have next to non-existant plant foods-- because then you really would start to miss out on folate, vitamin a-- and others.

thanks for this forum!

[lex_rooker]

Lex, I continue to have some nice, moderately euphoric highs after eating lightly during the day and then having a big meal of raw meat, tallow and water at night. Did you experience this? If so, how long did it continue?

Phil,
Yes, I started getting an overall feeling of well-being and it has pretty much continued.  I wouldn't call it a euphoric high but just an overall sense of contentment.  I also used to be prone to rollercoaster highs and lows - often within the same day.  Those evened out and I must say that I pretty much feel great all the time.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

On your 31 day distilled water fast you said you lost 84 pounds which is around 2.75 a day. The fasting studies Ive seen show a weight loss around 3/4 -1 lb a day if memory serves me correct. This would mean you lost 3-4 times as much weight. Even though you kept quite active during the fast it seems like this alone would not make up for the difference. Is there something to the distilled water that causes you to lose an absurd amount of water weight?

Paleo D,
Weight loss was rapid in the very beginning but then slowed to 1/2 lb per day during the last couple of weeks.  It was so long ago that I just don't remember the details.  What I remember most was that I lost so much muscle mass that it took me 2 or 3 years to recover and then I'm not sure how much permanent damage was done.

You also say how you believe that it might be the case that certain amino acids are always converted to glucose. Ive read just the very basics of biochem but I do remember a small part on dna- that when it transcribes its code on the ribosomes it breaks down the sequence into three nucleotides (AGT, CTA, for example). From these nucleotides it would determine which of the 20 amino acids to pick to add to the protein. Every single amino acid is mapped to a certain three letter sequence of the code. From this I would guess that all amino acids are indeed used when dna gets transcribed to create proteins. Surely some are used more than others and that possibly each amino acid would have a relative frequency of conversion not an absolute 0 or 1. Then again I don't know much...

This idea is just a guess.  My experiments and BG measurements seem to point in the direction that a very consistent amount of protein is converted to glucose.  My personal belief is that the body is very consistent in what it does.  In other words, it doesn't measure BG and then convert dietary protein to BG only if it is low.  Instead I believe that dietary protein is metabolized into amino acids.  These amino acids float around in our blood as sort of a 'soup' mix which is pumped to all parts of the body.  If there is a specific need for a specific amino acid by a cell or group of tissues, then as the soup flows through that area, enough of that amino acid will be pulled out of the blood to satisfy the immediate requirement.  Ultimately all the soup will pumped through the liver and any amino acids that make it to the liver could then be converted to glucose.  Since it is clear that the conversion runs around 50 to 60 percent, it makes sense that only certain surplus amino acids are converted and others are not.  This is my theory and it may be accurate or pure baloney - your call.  It is just an attempt to explain my observation and whether it is true or not really doesn't make much difference.  The body is going to do what it wants regardless of what we believe or think we know.

Also, if you could, give us more insight on Del Fuegos (from the ZC board) all pemmican diet? I think you only briefly mentioned that we do need bacteria. If you read his posts it seems like he has turned his family into some sort of borderline demigods. He seems to have extreme amounts of sensitivity to small changes in diets. He claims to notice differences in energy and mood with different ratios of fat and just general preparedness of the pemmican. He also said that when he switched to an all raw meat diet his entire family started getting angry and their overall seemed like a nightmare of an experience.

I've followed Delfeugo fairly closely and have seen the same things as you.  I have no explanation for it as I know of no one else that has experienced anything similar.  Your guess is as good as (and probably better) than mine.

[Ioanna]

Lex or PaleoPhil (or anyone else who feels this... Wodgina?):

Is this feeling of 'well being' or 'euphoria' something physiologic or a mental state?

Lex, a lot of gurus speak highly of the cleansing/rejuvenating properties of a fast.  Are you in complete disagreement?  Do you think any of the beginning days of your fast may have been helpful, but the prolongation was too much burden? Do you remember fighting the urge to eat?  or what you broke your fast with?...fat?  Sorry, probably it was too long ago, but just thought I'd ask.

[lex_rooker]

I am extremely interested in trying to somewhat figure out the puzzle of what constitutes sufficient vitamin and mineral intake for man.  Because you are basically eating a diet that is 100% animal products (which don't really have anti-nutrients in them) I'm sure your vitamin intake is more than sufficient (with one caveat).  For people who eat cereal grains with phytic acid, they even have to worry about minerals being directly leached out of their body.  Mineral intake on your diet is a little more tricky though-- I'm glad your getting a comprehensive bone scan, I'm interested to see if you can maintain calcium balance with such low intake.  With a diet so low in anti-nutrients, you probably just don't need as many minerals.

Bone scan is scheduled for August 20 and I'll post results as soon as I get them.

The caveat I have is with vitamin c intake.  I'm sure you are trying as hard as you can to do this diet without vitamin supplementation, but it just seems that humans need to get a decent amount of this nutrient.  All humans are in a catch 22, to get vitamin c you have to eat foods that are potentially damaging (such as fruit and veggies).  I looked through your tests to see if I could find your uric acid level-- I'd like to know that.  Higher than usual uric acid levels are usually caused by fructose (which you don't eat), or by eating high purine foods (sometimes), or by very low vitamin c intake.  I have this nagging feeling that your A1c test would even benefit from increased vitamin c intake-- because vitamin c can protect many types of molecules from oxidation.

My doctor had the same concerns as you.  After 3 years he's thrown in the towel.  Vitamin C deficiency shows itself within weeks and death occurs within a couple of months of the onset of symptoms.  If I were going to get scurvy I'd have been dead long ago.  I take no supplements and my blood tests show no deficiencies in the elements that are measured.  You are free to look at them. They are all posted as pdf files attached to the first entry of this journal.

There has been some speculation in the scientific world as to why humans don't experience vitamin C deficiency when eating a fresh meat diet.  One theory that I've heard is that Vitamin C does its antioxidant work by contributing an electron to neutralize charged free radicals.  It just so happens that uric acid is even a better electron donor than Vitamin C and therefore has better antioxidant properties than Vitamin C.  Is this true?,  I have no idea and I'm not sure anyone else does either.  What I am sure of is that I haven't eaten any fruits, vegetables, or carbs of any kind in about 4 years and my health just keeps improving. 

I'd also like to ask you why you think it is that you really don't think you can tolerate up to 50grams of some type of carbohydrate a day?  If it really is the case that 57% of your protein gets converted to glucose-- why not just find some type of carbohydrate that you can tolerate to fill in. 

I can easily tolerate 50 grams of carbohydrate a day but if I don't need it, and my health is much better than when I was eating carbs, then why would I do this?  Second, you seem to think that dietary protein is converted to glucose only because there is no carb source.  I don't think this way.  I think there is evidence that 50 to 60 percent of all protein eaten is converted to glucose regardless of whether we eat carbs or not. (Look at my previous post to Paleo D for my reasoning.)  Why on earth would I want to add carbs just to add to the glucose load my body must handle?

I would also say that your high A1c level may be due to the amount of protein in your diet-- coupled with low vitamin c intake-- and the lack of protective compounds (which are actually toxins) in plant materials. 

What evidence do you have for these statements?  I have much better health than when I was eating plant materials with all those 'protective compounds', and I certainly am not showing any signs of nutritional deficiency.  I would change in a heartbeat if things weren't working, but they are working wonderfully well, and have been for several years now.

Protein requirements are almost certainly lower with additional carbohydrates in a diet. 

Again, how do you know this with so much certainty?  I know of no objective studies that come to this conclusion.

We are really making strides in understanding why have "some" plant compounds are so beneficial to us.  The hormetic effects of plant compounds really seem to shine.  The act of processing the toxins in the plants or fruits is what makes us stronger-- having a diet so devoid in toxins (such as a 100% meat diet)  deprives the body of this hormetic benefit (I'm not saying to eat a lot of plants-- just a little!)

Sounds like pure nonsense to me.  You are correct that we are now discovering all sorts of hormonal effects of plant compounds and the majority of them are bad.  What could possibly make you believe that processing toxins from plant materials is what makes us stronger?  What studies can you produce that support such a statement?

Lastly, going back to mineral arguments-- do you think your potassium levels are ok on a diet that is so low in plant materials?

You can see my blood potassium, calcium, and other mineral levels in my annual blood tests posted in the first entry of this log.  They all show normal and for the most part right down the middle of the acceptable range.

btw-- I wouldn't give up the organ meat component of your diet if you have next to nonexistent plant foods-- because then you really would start to miss out on folate, vitamin a-- and others.

How do you know this?  I know others that have eaten an exclusive muscle-meat-only diet for over 4 years and they show no deficiencies of any kind. 

All of the concerns you've brought up were voiced by my personal doctor as well.  All of his gloom and doom predictions have not come true.  I have no idea why I show no nutritional deficiencies on such a restricted diet of raw red meat and fat, but I don't.  I assure you that if I did, I'd change things in a hurry.  You see, I'm not about doing what doctors and diet gurus think is right, I'm all about what actually works.  Raw red meat, fat, and zero carb intake has been working very well for me for over 3 years.  Based on that 'real' evidence, I'll stick with it for the foreseeable future, and let others like yourself worry over things that might be problems, but aren't.

thanks for this forum!

I'm just a member and individual contributor.  The people that deserve the real thanks are the admins and moderators.  They are the ones that keep things going and without them this forum would not exist.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

Is this feeling of 'well being' or 'euphoria' something physiologic or a mental state?

For me I refer to it as a mental state.

Lex, a lot of gurus speak highly of the cleansing/rejuvenating properties of a fast.  Are you in complete disagreement?  Do you think any of the beginning days of your fast may have been helpful, but the prolongation was too much burden? Do you remember fighting the urge to eat?  or what you broke your fast with?...fat?  Sorry, probably it was too long ago, but just thought I'd ask.

It was my belief in the gurus cleansing nonsense that convinced me that I needed to to this 'cleansing' fast.  I now believe that it is total nonsense.

Lex

[TylerDurden]

How do you know this?  I know others that have eaten an exclusive muscle-meat-only diet for over 4 years and they show no deficiencies of any kind. 
Lex

That statement re 4 years isn't all that significant when one considers that certain deficiencies in a raw vegan diet often take years, even decades, to appear, in terms of symptoms(even b12-related issues).

[William]

Lex or PaleoPhil (or anyone else who feels this... Wodgina?):

Is this feeling of 'well being' or 'euphoria' something physiologic or a mental state?

Lex, a lot of gurus speak highly of the cleansing/rejuvenating properties of a fast.  Are you in complete disagreement?  Do you think any of the beginning days of your fast may have been helpful, but the prolongation was too much burden? Do you remember fighting the urge to eat?  or what you broke your fast with?...fat?  Sorry, probably it was too long ago, but just thought I'd ask.

I think that the feeling of 'well being' or 'euphoria' is a mental and emotional result of physiologic state. "You are what you eat", and "Love your neighbour as yourself", "one hand washes the other", "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" ad nauseum.

So what's a "fast"?
www.healself.org works because it's what we do every day on raw zero carb, we can call it intermittent fasting, but some don't see it as fasting. Breaking the daily fast ("breakfast"!    )  in the evening or whenever with raw fat meat is the perfect way to fast.
The point Dr. Bernarr tries to make is that if you are seriously hungry, you a not fasting, you are starving, and starvation is bad, results in muscle wasting as Lex notes.

[PaleoPhil]

I am a very rational/scientific-type person, very modern in that sense (though I have tried to learn more about the more sacred/spiritual thinking of the past, since it probably played an important role in the evolution of human societies over at least the first 2.5 million years of human existence--not something that can be easily poo-pooed), so my responses will tend to be along those lines. I hope none of the following offends spiritual people and they may wish to skip my post if they fear it will.

The following is speculation on my part, so I'm not claiming that any of it is fact and you should take it with a grain of salt.

Lex or PaleoPhil (or anyone else who feels this... Wodgina?):

Is this feeling of 'well being' or 'euphoria' something physiologic or a mental state?

I'm not sure what the difference is between those two, and scientists have been debating for decades over how much of mental state is physiological/chemical/hormonal/etc., so I'll let them figure that out. First I'll try to explain what I meant by euphoria. Euphoria and well-being are synonyms, with euphoria generally being seen as being an enhanced state of well-being beyond the everyday norm. The Greek word euphoria literally means well-bearing, which is translated into "well being" in English. Wikipedia states: "Euphoria is medically recognized as an emotional and mental state defined as a sense of great elation and well-being." It is safer to use the term "well being," because euphoria has also become associated with the drug-induced highs that have become increasingly common and accentuated in modern society in recent centuries, but for me, "well being" didn't seem to sufficiently convey the positive feeling I experienced that exceeded anything I had felt in my prior 40 years of eating modern foods.

All I know is that it was entirely unexpected when it first happened, it took me by surprise, puzzled me, and involved no conscious effort on my part. In other words, I didn't say to myself, "Oh isn't it wonderful how healthy I'm eating, I feel so good about myself, I think I'll adopt a positive mental attitude and meditate and try to reach a higher plane of consciousness, etc." It was more like, "Let's try this WOE that others report works so well and the science seems to back, hmmm, this is a fascinating positive sensation that seems to be welling up from deep inside my gut and washing over my body, what the devil is this? Am I really experiencing this or is this some sort of coincidence or delusion--let me check with others. Well, what do you know, multiple other people report the same sorts of euphoric/good-well-being/etc.-type sensations, so there appears to be some sort of 'real' cause and effect going on here. Fascinating. This is worthy of further study and seems to confirm that I am on the right dietary track."

Lex also seems to be a very rational/scientific type of person (coincidentally, he was an engineer and I started out on an engineering track in college, though I switched to business), so when he reports similar phenomena, I take his reports very seriously. He comes across as an honest, no-nonsense sort of person who wouldn't make up stuff or be easily prone to supernatural whimsy.

Whatever it is, for me it seems to emanate more from the primordial brain (the gut) and the body than the second cranial brain, and my cranial brain seems to be a beneficiary of its effects rather than the source of them. I don't take drugs or even consume much caffeine and I am not the sort of person who is prone to having or reporting mind/consciousness-altering or supernatural experiences (when a teacher asked my high school English class who had encountered ghosts, I was one of only 3 out of about 30 students who didn't raise their hands--it is a vivid memory because I was shocked at how many thought they had had experiences with ghosts). However, this experience has made me more interested in the spiritual reports and practices of traditional peoples and I have gradually incorporated more sacred-type language into my own discourse on "sacred" matters, because I now take them more seriously and think there may more of a physiological/physical/chemical/hormonal/call-it-what-you-will basis to much of it than I realized.

It sounds like Lex's positive sensations moderated over the years and I suspect that mine probably will as well. I think that part of it involves deficiencies in minerals and other nutrients that when filled most optimally by fresh flesh--perhaps especially raw meat and fat--result in positive biofeedback from the body, which would encourage mammals like us to eat more of that healthy flesh and thus better ensure our survival and thus may be an evolutionary adaptation.

My experience seems to confirm this. For example, when I first ate a large amount of wild salmon in the early days of adopting a NeanderThin-type diet, I experienced the greatest feelings of euphoria/well-being and they were lessened on later eating of similar quantities of wild salmon. Also, they seem to be greatest when I've gone the longest without eating or after having done some cheating and then return to the foods I do best on, suggesting that my nutrients have depleted more and are now being replenished more greatly than usual.

[Ioanna]

The point Dr. Bernarr tries to make is that if you are seriously hungry, you a not fasting, you are starving, and starvation is bad, results in muscle wasting as Lex notes.

To be honest, I don't really think I know how to identify 'hunger'.  I've been eating solely to avoid pain.  I just kind of know when my insides will rebel.  Following this I've been eating mostly twice a day for a few years now, though sometimes I only eat once, and sometimes not at all, sometimes nothing for a few days.  I don't know if I am hungry/starving... If my stomach is unsettled I won't eat.  Within in a small range, my weight hardly changes no matter what I do... lift, cardio, eat a ton, eat not at all... doesn't much matter, so that's not a good index for me. I don't really get myself at all.  I especially don't get, though I'm glad for the successes there, Charles' forum that I've recently been lurking on.  When I first went to meat/fat only, I cooked the fat (intentionally and unintentionally)... and I bloated/puffed up so much!  Back to raw fat and I was back to normal in a day.  There are so many testimonials there (they're mostly cooked) of people doing extremely well for themselves. Relatively, I feel like some extraordinary sensitive freak sometimes.

Anyway, that's why I was wondering if Lex felt 'hunger' during the 30 day fast.  Maybe his mindset did not allow him  to feel? Maybe he ignored?   

[PaleoPhil]

... and I bloated/puffed up so much!  Back to raw fat and I was back to normal in a day.  ...

Interesting. Lex experienced edema after eating cooked foods--I believe they were served by a hotel at a convention or something like that. What is it about cooking meats that could cause bloating or edema, I wonder?

I've only experienced minor symptoms after eating too much cooked meats myself (tiny acne outbreaks, constipation and feeling less great), though I'm not fully raw yet, so maybe my symptoms will become more pronounced when I'm eating more raw.

[Ioanna]

I only cooked the fat, not the lean.  I can feel cooked meat sitting in my stomach, but other than that I'm not sure how it affects me really.  Raw lean appealed to me, but not raw fat.. I think because it was always too cold.  Now I just put in my dehydrator set at 85 and gets mushy and I like it.