Lex's Journal

[lex_rooker]

Wow! What a shock.  I just received a call from the Emergency Room physician.  He went out of his way today to follow up with a hospital staff urologist to better interpret the CT Scan.  It seems I passed a 3.8mm stone (from the left kidney) and that there is a larger stone in the right kidney but not currently in a position to cause problems.  There is a good bit of calcification in the lower pelvic area but it is outside the urinary tract.  He says this is not unusual for people my age and I don’t seem to be better or worse than most – pretty average as far as overall calcification goes.

I have a doctor’s appointment tomorrow morning but don’t expect to get much more than a referral to an urologist.  I’ll be presenting my dilemma of low fluid intake/reduced BPH symptoms but high likelihood of kidney stones, vs high fluid intake and up every hour to urinate, but with reduced likelihood of kidney stones.  Not happy with either of these choices and hope there is an acceptable 3rd option.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

With the multiple stones and your low fluid intake history, I do suspect that dehydration was a key factor and that they accumulated over a fair amount of time, but I'm no doctor, so take it with a grain of salt as always. My guess is that they'll want to do a lithotripsy on the remaining stone.

[Danny]

Holy shit Lex! I just caught up with this thread. I'm sorry to hear the bad news. It's too late to call, but I hope everything is cool. Keep us updated!

[Nicola]

Lex, you know how I go on about water! Well I had been drinking ionized water for more than 2 years. A few months ago I got to know a man like you; he went "nuts" on water and has developed his own water purifier. He told me in grate detail why the minerals (and all the rest) should be removed to hydrathe the body (mineralwater dehydrates the body). I know you have some kind of system built in your house (natural, hydrating instalment?).

What this man is manufacturing is his own kind of "Nimbus" (this system is sold in the USA and other countrys).

The Truth About Reversosmosis:

Myth #3 - Reverse Osmosis Removes Healthy Minerals from Water
Truth: Reverse Osmosis removes inorganic minerals which are UNHEALTHY.
RO systems do remove minerals from tap water. However, we humans get the vast majority of our minerals from the foods we eat, not from drinking water. For example, 1 glass of orange juice has the same amount of minerals as 30 gallons of tap water. Try drinking that for your morning breakfast!

Another thing they don't mention is the type of minerals found in water. Tap water contains only inorganic minerals which cannot be properly absorbed by our bodies. Human beings need organic minerals which are only available from living organisms like plants and vegetables and are easily absorbed by our systems. The inorganic minerals found in water has little to no benefits to people and in fact are actually detrimental to our health.

It is estimated that over a 60-year lifespan, a person drinking tap or mineral water will be ingesting about 200 to 300 pounds of rock that their body cannot use. (These are the so-called "healthy minerals" that RO detractors complain are being taken out of the water!) While most of these minerals will be eliminated, some will be stored in our tissues becoming toxic. The primary culprits are calcium salts and over time they can cause gallstones, kidney stones, bone & joint calcification, arthritis, and hardening and blocking our arteries.

"What the human body cannot utilize or excrete, it must store. Consequently, the inorganic salts (inorganic minerals) are stored and in time take their toll in the form of hardening of the arteries, stones within the kidneys, urethras, gall bladder, joints and an etiologic factor in enlargement of the adipose cell (fat cell). To be one hundred percent healthy, the human body must be free of inorganic minerals."
Paul C. Bragg, N.D., Ph.D.
World Renowned Nutritionist, Pioneer in America's Wellness movement


http://www.squidoo.com/reverse-osmosis-water-truth-safe


I often think of you

Nicola

[lex_rooker]

With the multiple stones and your low fluid intake history, I do suspect that dehydration was a key factor and that they accumulated over a fair amount of time, but I'm no doctor, so take it with a grain of salt as always. My guess is that they'll want to do a lithotripsy on the remaining stone.

Phil - you are way ahead of me on this stuff.  I had to look up lithotripsy to find out what you were talking about.  To be honest, I would have much preferred to stay in the dark on this subject, but now I'm afraid I'm going to have to learn more than I ever wanted to know about the subject.

Nicola - I have a comercial water deionizer system.  It removes all inorganic minerals from the water and makes what is essentially distilled water.  I have no idea if this is good or bad.  I think that it would be unnatural for us to drink distilled or purified water as there is no place that it would be available in our natural environment with the exception of rain water.  The water from all rivers, wells, lakes, and such are full of dissolved minerals.  It may be true that our bodies can't use these minerals, about that I have no idea, however I certainly believe that our bodies have the ability to deal with them by either using or removing them, or we would have perished long ago.  No other animal that I'm aware of requires purified water, and they often gather around muddy watering holes to drink.  You can't get much more mineralized than mud.

Danny - It was a painful surprise to me as well.  Will keep you posted on what the doctors think caused it.  My guess at this point is that I wasn't drinking enough water.  We'll see.

Lex

[DeadRamones]

This might be of some help with the whole natural water thing. http://www.findaspring.com/

[livingthelife]

I have a comercial water deionizer system.  It removes all inorganic minerals from the water and makes what is essentially distilled water.

If you start with distilled water you can reconstitute it any way you like, or not at all, depending on your needs.

I start with distilled spring water (feeling that the spring water is purer than tap water to begin with). I steep raw organic seaweed in the water for about an hour before drinking - no heat, room temp. Best would be many rapid passes through the seaweed or "whatever" you are using to reconstitute.

I like the seaweed for several reasons, but that may not be right for you. One reason is that it makes the water "slippery" which soothes the esophagus (I've had reflux). It also does add some minerals, but not as much as sea salt or tap water or regular spring water, etc. (as per my "boil residue test"). I suspect that the minerals are in a more usable form in the seaweed as opposed to merely suspended/dissolved. I want minerals for teeth and bones - as do you, I'm sure, just not for kidney stones!   

This isn't a scientific recommendation by any means.

I hope you're soon feeling better.

Bottoms up!   

[goodsamaritan]

Hi Lex,

Here's my 2 cents on how to cure kidney stones in 1 day, no surgery, no strange herbs
http://www.curemanual.com/diseases-and-tweaks/kidney-stones
(raw lemon juice... very easy, very paleo)

I have known people to go on water melon only fasts for kidney cleansing.

And of course www.barefootherbalistmh.com has 6 week kidney cleansing herbs. (I have done this)

You know my position on water intake, I agree with Aajonus regarding water should be from food, we are not drinking animals... 2nd choice is already what you got, distilled water.

Always wishing you the best.

[PaleoPhil]

Phil - you are way ahead of me on this stuff.

Only because I went through it myself in the past. After my last stone my doctor said I would likely get stones again, as nearly everyone who gets them once gets them multiple times (and often worse each time, which was pretty much the case for me), and I had already had a few bouts in the past, but I haven't had a single stone since I eliminated gluten more than 5 years ago, so I'm hoping I'll beat the odds and I'm hoping you'll be able to avoid new big stones.

Nicola - I have a comercial water deionizer system.  It removes all inorganic minerals from the water and makes what is essentially distilled water.  I have no idea if this is good or bad.

My guess is bad, because of osmosis. When drinking mineral-stripped water, I imagine it might leach a tiny amount of minerals out of the body's fluids, via osmosis. How significant the effect is, I don't know.

The water from all rivers, wells, lakes, and such are full of dissolved minerals.

Yup

It may be true that our bodies can't use these minerals

Nope. At least not according to the small number of studies I found. They all found benefits to mineral water.

No other animal that I'm aware of requires purified water, and they often gather around muddy watering holes to drink.  You can't get much more mineralized than mud.

Yup

[lex_rooker]

Went to the Doc's this morning.  He took all the information that the Emergency Room gave me upon release, ordered the obligitory followup blood and urine tests and said he wanted a chance to see the TC Scan and read the entire report before going any further.  At 1pm he called me at home to tell me that he was looking at the digital CT Scan and the offical report from the radiologist.

There were only two stones, both small, in the 3mm range.  One stone on the left side was in the duct work heading for the bladder and causing me great misery. That stone seems to have passed through my system and is now gone. The other stone is on the right side and apparently not in a position to cause any problems.  It is also too small for any of the normal procedures to be effective.  Soooooooo, at this point no medical action will be taken.  I will be asking for followup CT Scans to keep track of this issue as I feel it is important to know what is going on with the stone that is currently there and find out if others are forming.

A lot of home remedies abound for kidney stones and I thank you all for your sincere suggestions, but I think I’m going to focus on prevention rather than magic elixir cures – especially since most of these are aimed at expediting the passing of the stone rather than fixing the conditions that caused them to form in the first place.

For the immediate future I’ll be sticking with my standard diet of 80% calories from fat, 20% calories from protein with the only change being to raise my water intake to try to keep urine Specific Gravity below 1.020, and getting periodic CT Scans to see if more stones form or my existing stone reduces in size.  It is important to me to know if my meat based dietary protocol is creating an environment that is conducive to forming kidney stones.  I think this approach is more useful than taking the ‘cure of the day’ after it’s too late. 

In talking to my doctor, the general feeling is that these homeopathic cures speed stone movement, and hence “cure” the immediate problem by dramatically increasing fluid intake, thereby increasing hydraulic pressure to push the stone through the ducts, be it through eating something like watermelon, or some other juice like lemon, orange, water (distilled or otherwise), or even Coke Classic.  The acidic nature of the fluid doesn’t seem to translate to dissolving the stones – especially since my urine is already highly acidic at a pH of 5.0.

I’m also pleased to report that Doc was kind enough to order the 25-hydroxy Vitamin D test so I should have the results of that in a few days, and will post when I receive them.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

Well that's good news and potentially not so great. The good news is it sounds like your calcification is relatively minor, though you're still waiting on your doc's additional analysis. The bad news is that remaining stone is not treatable so you might end up passing it and if it gets lodged somewhere or comes out the wrong way (ie, width-wise), depending on its shape, it could be painful like the first one. But maybe you'll get lucky.

I don't know much about dissolving stones through home remedies. Acidic juices are purported to help with that, but it didn't work for me and it sounds like your doctor's not convinced of the merit of that either. I'll let you know if I see anything that doesn't look like quackery.

I do still have my kidney stone prevention info from when I got them chronically. It was only when I cut out gluten that I got any results, though I think that water probably would have helped if I hadn't been eating "healthy whole grains."

For calcium oxalate stones, some of the other preventatives that were suggested to me or found in the past or recently and make some sense to me are (this is meant to give you possible leads, not to be prescriptive):
> increase dietary magnesium (to help absorb calcium and prevent free calcium accumulation in the body fluids)
> increase dietary calcium but avoid calcium supplements (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=1887); poorly absorbed calcium can actually contribute to calcium oxalate stone formation, but well-absorbed dietary calcium, such as from mineral water, appears to help
> increase dietary potassium
> drink lots of mineral water (http://www.mgwater.com/kdneystn.shtml)--since some mineral waters contain magnesium and potassium and some also contain calcium, in apparently highly absorbable form, this helps out with the three above tips as well as hydration

The tips that make less sense to me now include:
> limit vitamin D intake: I found this in my old notes as well as online; it seems counter-intuitive and doesn't seem to have as much support as increasing magnesium and limiting protein. The one study I found involved people taking megadoses of calcium in addition to small doses of vitamin D--I suspect the megadoses of probably poorly absorbed calcium more than the vitamin D (http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/2006-aug.shtml).
> some said to limit fish due to oxalate content, but others disagreed (interestingly, fermenting fish reduces its oxalate content)
> and other obviously bogus advice like eating lots of whole grains

Other recommendations that you are already doing are high zinc intake and limit protein and vitamin C intake (some people have allegedly gotten kidney stones from taking megadoses of vitamin C), and you're avoiding high-oxalate plant foods, of course

[Tom G.]

 Sorry to hear about this Lex. I know someone that has had a life long problem with stones. He has been restricting meat for the last few years, but it hasn't helped. It seems in his case, it is hereditary. His father also had lots of problems with stones. I wish I could give some sort of advice. I have read some info in the past, but various articles seem to conflict with each other. Drinking lots of water is mentioned a lot. Who knows for sure?


  Tom

[alphagruis]

Only because I went through it myself in the past. After my last stone my doctor said I would likely get stones again, as nearly everyone who gets them once gets them multiple times (and often worse each time, which was pretty much the case for me), and I had already had a few bouts in the past, but I haven't had a single stone since I eliminated gluten more than 5 years ago, so I'm hoping I'll beat the odds and I'm hoping you'll be able to avoid new big stones.

I can confirm that gluten or more generally grains are major culprits in calcium oxalate and/or phosphate kidney stone formation.  I got rid of a long standing problem with such stone formation by elimination of these "foods" 11 years ago. Dairy elimination one year before didn't work.

Lex, since you don't eat grains this cause cannot be invoked in your case.
 
Yet something's puzzling me in this respect. If someone eats grainfed beef or meats or even not exclusively grassfed meat one may imagine that some of the grain originating poisons could be retained in the meat and fat and possibly result in adverse effects on kidney function too. In particular when on a meat and fat only diet.     

[lex_rooker]

Yet something's puzzling me in this respect. If someone eats grainfed beef or meats or even not exclusively grassfed meat one may imagine that some of the grain originating poisons could be retained in the meat and fat and possibly result in adverse effects on kidney function too. In particular when on a meat and fat only diet.   

alphagruis - I doubt that this would be an issue for me as I only eat grain fed meats about once per month when eating out.  The rest of the time it is raw grass fed meats.

Tom G. - My dad suffered from kidney stones as well later in life and though this may smack of a hereditary link, my dad also suffered from BPH (probably hereditary in my case), and therefore reduced his fluid intake to help manage the situation.  Kidney stones may be created as a byproduct of BPH driven by fluid restriction rather than dna.  I'm upping fluids but keeping everything else the same to see what happens over time.

Phil - I've found most of the same information that you have - much of it seems like total nonsense combined with wishful thinking.  Since I do have a known stone of known size, and a willing doctor, I should be able to track what's going on with that stone every year with my normal lab work.  Unfortunately these things don't form or dissolve instantly with a change in diet, but we should see something over time.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

What was the other calcification in the pelvis that was reported to you? Was it a phlebolith? They are reportedly considered benign and not generally treated, although they can be associated with venous hypertension and I'll bet they are much less common in HG's than moderners.

BTW, calcification is one of the hallmarks of the diseases of civilization, if you weren't already aware.

Good luck.

[lex_rooker]

What was the other calcification in the pelvis that was reported to you? Was it a phlebolith?

No clue, and not sure it would do me any good to know if these calcium deposits have an official name as I'm not sure there is anything I could do about it anyway.  What I do have is a baseline CT Scan that can be compared with future scans which might be valuable for noting changes in these deposits (be they phleboliths or arthritis or whatever) as well as changes in the currently identified kidney stones.

I also have to be practical and realistic about what my change in lifestyle can accomplish.  Since I have personally spent more than half my expected lifespan eating food that I now believe is totally unfit for human consumption, is it any wonder that I would have many battle scars throughout my body to prove it.  I'm sure there is much damage that could have been prevented, but now that it is there, can never be fully repaired - regardless of what I do.  I must live with the cards I've pulled from the deck, and must now play out my self dealt hand to the best of my ability.

Lex

[popeye]

No clue, and not sure it would do me any good to know if these calcium deposits have an official name as I'm not sure there is anything I could do about it anyway.  What I do have is a baseline CT Scan that can be compared with future scans which might be valuable for noting changes in these deposits (be they phleboliths or arthritis or whatever) as well as changes in the currently identified kidney stones.

I also have to be practical and realistic about what my change in lifestyle can accomplish.  Since I have personally spent more than half my expected lifespan eating food that I now believe is totally unfit for human consumption, is it any wonder that I would have many battle scars throughout my body to prove it.  I'm sure there is much damage that could have been prevented, but now that it is there, can never be fully repaired - regardless of what I do.  I must live with the cards I've pulled from the deck, and must now play out my self dealt hand to the best of my ability.

Lex

I totally agree, Lex.  I am amazed at how much better you have become just through dietary change.  That alone is miraculous, even if it hasn't resulted in "perfect health."  I do hope you never have to deal with another kidney stone, though.  I don't even want to think about how unpleasant passing a rock through your urethra is.

[PaleoPhil]

No clue, and not sure it would do me any good to know if these calcium deposits have an official name as I'm not sure there is anything I could do about it anyway.

I enjoy studying willing guinea pigs such as yourself, regardless of whether it helps you or not (sorry ). Basically, I enjoy connecting the dots. It's all in the name of science, so I hope you don't mind. Based on your past history of 145/95 blood pressure and the pelvic calcification, my best guess is that it's a phlebolith caused by past venous hypertension that caused trauma to the vein wall, possibly further exacerbated by inflammation from your immune system attacking your body's own protein cells (autoimmune dysfunction--which is also a likely major factor in skin cancer, which you also have a history of). I think that calcium deposits may basically be the body's way of protecting damaged tissues from further inflammation and damage.

I would also guess that your calcifications are not limited to the reported two kidney stones and pelvic calcification. Rather, I would bet that you have other tiny calcifications in your body that your physician either deemed too insignificant to report to you, or that were not captured by your scan. Although, I don't know whether existing calcifications can be diminished by proper diet. That's one reason why I'm looking forward to your future scan results.

Also, given your history of peripheral edema, and possible hypertension and phlebolith, and likely multi-symptomatic autoimmune dysfunction I would speculate that your veins have/had somewhat weak walls and you may have had one or more of poor circulation, chronically cold hands or hot feet, venous insufficiency, stasis dermatitis, spider veins, varicose veins, easy bruising, easy flushing in the nose or face, burst capillaries, bloodshot eyes, etc.

I also have to be practical and realistic about what my change in lifestyle can accomplish.

Very wise. I also maintain a general rule of maintaining low expectations while never ruling out the possibility of seemingly "miraculous" results. Most people do not experience complete healing of all past damage. However, when it comes to evolutionary/ancestral nutrition and medicine, nearly every time I have thought to myself something along the lines of "that's impossible," I have turned out to be wrong. So I try to keep a very open mind.

[Dextery]

Lex,
Dr T  (Nephrologist) has some good kidney stone information at http://nephropal.blogspot.com/search/label/kidney%20stones

Read the entries in reverse order...oldest to newest.

You may be able to lick that one remaining stone.

[goodsamaritan]

I also have to be practical and realistic about what my change in lifestyle can accomplish.

Oh, don't feel so glum Lex. 

I came from so bad a shape everything nowadays seems up and up.

You will solve this with flying colors.

[lex_rooker]

Based on your past history of 145/95 blood pressure and the pelvic calcification, my best guess is that it's a phlebolith caused by past venous hypertension that caused trauma to the vein wall, possibly further exacerbated by inflammation from your immune system attacking your body's own protein cells (autoimmune dysfunction--which is also a likely major factor in skin cancer, which you also have a history of). I think that calcium deposits may basically be the body's way of protecting damaged tissues from further inflammation and damage.

I would also guess that your calcifications are not limited to the reported two kidney stones and pelvic calcification. Rather, I would bet that you have other tiny calcifications in your body that your physician either deemed too insignificant to report to you, or that were not captured by your scan. Although, I don't know whether existing calcifications can be diminished by proper diet. That's one reason why I'm looking forward to your future scan results.

Also, given your history of peripheral edema, and possible hypertension and phlebolith, and likely multi-symptomatic autoimmune dysfunction I would speculate that your veins have/had somewhat weak walls and you may have had one or more of poor circulation, chronically cold hands or hot feet, venous insufficiency, stasis dermatitis, spider veins, varicose veins, easy bruising, easy flushing in the nose or face, burst capillaries, bloodshot eyes, etc.

Boy Phil, given your analysis it is clear my situation is rather hopeless.  But then again life itself is hopeless as the end result is always the same.  I don’t seem to have many of the symptoms of all that mumbo jumbo you describe above, but even if I did, so what?  None of it, with the exception of the passing of the kidney stone itself, has given me any problem or kept me from doing anything that I’ve wanted to do.  Why on earth would I want to waste even one minute of precious time worrying and agonizing over stuff I can do little or nothing about.  I find it far more enjoyable to spend my time fixing antique clocks so that they will run another 100 years. 

Lex,
Dr T  (Nephrologist) has some good kidney stone information at http://nephropal.blogspot.com/search/label/kidney%20stones 
Read the entries in reverse order...oldest to newest. You may be able to lick that one remaining stone.

Dextery, I’ll give this a look and see if it makes sense to me.

Oh, don't feel so glum Lex.  I came from so bad a shape everything nowadays seems up and up. You will solve this with flying colors.

GS – I wasn’t at all glum until I read PaleoPhil’s post above and discovered just what terrible shape I’m in.  I ran 3 miles last night and spent all day today working in my shop.  Apparently this was a grave error and will probably hasten my untimely departure from this earthly existence.  I’m now convinced, based on Phil’s analysis, that my best approach is to head immediately for bed with a hotwater bottle to keep my hands and feet warm and wait for the inevitable.  At least now if I stop posting suddenly, you’ll know what happened – those weak veins, burst capillaries, and autoimmune issues did me in.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

Boy Phil, given your analysis it is clear my situation is rather hopeless.  But then again life itself is hopeless as the end result is always the same.  I don’t seem to have many of the symptoms of all that mumbo jumbo you describe above, but even if I did, so what?  None of it, with the exception of the passing of the kidney stone itself, has given me any problem or kept me from doing anything that I’ve wanted to do.  Why on earth would I want to waste even one minute of precious time worrying and agonizing over stuff I can do little or nothing about.  I find it far more enjoyable to spend my time fixing antique clocks so that they will run another 100 years. 

LOL  , that's not the impression I meant to give and I didn't mean to suggest you had all those things. I was thinking possibly one or two. Most of those issues are minor anyway and worrying about anything, no matter how dire, doesn't help, so I try to avoid doing it ever. One of my hobbies happens to be learning about nutritional and medical science, which I became fascinated with when I discovered the benefits of Paleo diets and realized the astounding implications for these and countless other fields and aspects of life. It has the potential to turn many of society's assumptions on their head and revolutionize nearly everything--yet at the same time it will produce enormous resistance and conflict. It should be fascinating to watch everything develop. I wish I was younger so I could watch more of it and have participated in it from an early age.

I'm still a rank amateur in all this, but one of the things I've noticed is that the diseases and disorders of civilization and their direct and associated symptoms rarely come in ones or twos--they tend to come in bunches. But everyone is different and I'm glad you don't have any of those symptoms and that you have a fun hobby of your own.

Cheers,
Phil

[lex_rooker]

Phil,
Glad you took my response in good humor, but I’m truly interested in finding out what point you were trying to make.

In your original post you speculated on a whole litany of possible symptoms and conditions that may be attendant to those reveled by my CT Scan, but to what end? What was the point?  Even if I had one or more of the symptoms listed, I found nothing in your post to help me deal with any of the issues, or make my life better.

Thoughts?

Lex 

[goodsamaritan]

You could try the many other variants of paleo diet.
fruits and vegs are just waiting for you.
Maybe it is time to shift gears.

[Nicola]

You could try the many other variants of paleo diet.
fruits and vegs are just waiting for you.
Maybe it is time to shift gears.

Well you still seam to be looking for "the right" balance - with your fruits and vegs, fat and meat...

I believe that on the times I was stuck on 120 lbs to 123 lbs it was due to an overactive bowel moving thing, too short transit times, maybe the lower gut didn't feel “solid” enough. Some creaking and croaking… this was stabilized by lessening the bowel movement reflex caused by too much bowel activating fruit and too much animal fat.

Once I figured out the trick to stabilizing my gut with medicinal doses of Bieler’s soup and some fully cooked pork and just having 1 fruit serving a day and choosing the non bowel activating fruits and monitoring the amount of raw fat I eat that it does not exceed my sudden poop activating dose, my gut has felt solid. I passed on this knowledge to my 8 year old boy and has him listening to his own gut and to eat things that keep his gut solid and his poop solid.

http://www.myhealthblog.org/2009/11/14/ive-gained-weight-some-5-to-8-pounds/

I have a solid gut but raw meat and fat plus water does not seem to allow for solid poop; I feel their is just to much liquid and I still don't know, if that raw meat and fat is just kind of a hit or miss?

PaNu Blog (Dr. Harris) on plants:

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/11/10/plants-and-plant-compounds-are-not-essential-or-magic.html


Nicola