Lex's Journal

[TylerDurden]

5 to 6 litres a day? I seriously doubt this. There's a condition called hyponatraemia or some such where one can die from drinking too much water, and 5 to 6 litres sounds way too much for health.

[lex_rooker]

Phil and Tyler,

My urine Specific Gravity was very high, about 1.055.  Normal is considered anything below 1.030.  Sea water is between 1.020 and 1.025 so you can see that my urine was almost double that - probably not good.  The recomended starting point for drinking water was 16 oz every couple of hours plus additional water at meals as thirst demands.  This has me drinking about 3 to 4 litres per day (about a US gallon).  I was drinking about 1 to 1 1/2 litres before.

Lex

[Michael]

Lex - Thanks for providing that information.

Based on your experiences, I think I also need to up my water intake.  I'm VLC/verging on ZC and I'm drinking similar amounts to your original quantity - 1 to 1 1/2 litres.  In fact, probably less quite frequently!  I also use celtic sea salt with my meals which I'm conscious you do not.  In hope of avoiding any future kidney stone episodes I will try increasing my water intake.

Would you mind telling me how you measure your urine Specific Gravity?  I will search your journal for mention of it but, if you haven't mentioned it before, I would appreciate further information so that I could monitor my own.  Is there a specific instrument you use?  My only concerns with this VLC/ZC way of eating are kidney stones, acidosis, losing calcium from bones etc.  Your recent bone scan helped greatly in alleviating these fears but the kidney stone episode has given me further cause for concern.

I hope you're now fully recovered btw.

Phil - 5 to 6 litres per day for the inuit?!  Wow!  I'm not sure I could reach those levels.  I recall drinking one 5 litre bottle of mineral water a day back in my vegetarian days and it actually felt like it was doing me alot of harm - besides the seemingly constant urgency for passing it straight back out again!!    I think Tyler has a point on that one.

[RawZi]

- 5 to 6 litres per day for the inuit?!  Wow!  I'm not sure I could reach those levels.  I recall drinking one 5 litre bottle of mineral water a day back in my vegetarian days and it actually felt like it was doing me alot of harm - besides the seemingly constant urgency for passing it straight back out again

    I wonder how many calories are used to warm that much ice cold water to body temperature living in the cold.  I'm sure it's no problem.  Since I've been eating high (raw animal) fat I'm started to enjoy very cold baths and drinking cold water for the first time.  I used to hate cold water (not that I drink a whole lot).

[Dextery]

Since starting my journey to heath fitness, I have been drinking half my pounds of body weight in ounces.  I got that rule of thumb somewhere...I don't remember where.  It seems to work for me. 

[PaleoPhil]

... Phil - 5 to 6 litres per day for the inuit?!  Wow!  I'm not sure I could reach those levels.  I recall drinking one 5 litre bottle of mineral water a day back in my vegetarian days and it actually felt like it was doing me alot of harm - besides the seemingly constant urgency for passing it straight back out again!!    I think Tyler has a point on that one.

I can't imagine consuming that much myself (and I hope no one thought I was advocating it). When I drank lots of water, per my physicians' advice, for chronic kidney stones in the past it was unpleasant and didn't work. I was hoping that someone would provide a counter-source that said that carnivorous-oriented Inuits don't consume that much water, or that they do so for non-health reasons, or that it doesn't apply to someone on my somewhat different diet, because I wouldn't want to have to do it to optimize a carnivorous diet.

Since Lex and William are drinking around 3-4 liters per day, whereas I think I'm only up to 2-2.5, I think I'll shoot for their figure, and see how I do.

If the Inuit drank 5-6 liters a day, I wonder why their privates didn't freeze with all that pissing in the Arctic? 

[RawZi]

If the Inuit drank 5-6 liters a day, I wonder why their privates didn't freeze with all that pissing in the Arctic? 

    Maybe rather than urinating much, the freezing cold air took a lot of foggy moisture from their mouths with every breath.  Each breath in of that cold air, their bodies had to expend moisture to make its oxygen usable/the cold air tolerable.

[William]

    Maybe rather than urinating much, the freezing cold air took a lot of foggy moisture from their mouths with every breath.  Each breath in of that cold air, their bodies had to expend moisture to make its oxygen usable/the cold air tolerable.

Right on! That dry cold air must be warmed and humidified before it hits the bronchi. I remember the snap crackle and pop of nose hairs freezing on every inbreath, and all that ice on the mustache isn't snot, it's just frozen breath.
This is why the long European nose is more suitable for very cold places than short noses.

Siberian Asia was recently tropical, see the reports on the vegetation found in the teeth of the frozen mammoths, so it would make sense that Inuit came from there with their tropic-adapted short noses.

Interesting date is by Velikovsky and McCanney, that the pole shift from southern Canada to the Arctic ocean took place only 3,700 years ago. This is the only explanation for the frozen mammoths that makes sense.

[Nicola]

Since Lex and William are drinking around 3-4 liters per day, whereas I think I'm only up to 2-2.5, I think I'll shoot for their figure, and see how I do.

Lex, how do you feel with all that water? Doesn't most of the water land in the intestines? Doesn't this cause liquid discharges and a bloated feeling?

Nicola

[Danny]

I can't imagine consuming that much myself (and I hope no one thought I was advocating it). When I drank lots of water, per my physicians' advice, for chronic kidney stones in the past it was unpleasant and didn't work. I was hoping that someone would provide a counter-source that said that carnivorous-oriented Inuits don't consume that much water, or that they do so for non-health reasons, or that it doesn't apply to someone on my somewhat different diet, because I wouldn't want to have to do it to optimize a carnivorous diet.

Since Lex and William are drinking around 3-4 liters per day, whereas I think I'm only up to 2-2.5, I think I'll shoot for their figure, and see how I do.

If the Inuit drank 5-6 liters a day, I wonder why their privates didn't freeze with all that pissing in the Arctic? 

That is a ton of water, I figure I drink less than 2 liters a day. I'm never thirsty until after I consume dinner.

[lex_rooker]

Lex, how do you feel with all that water? Doesn't most of the water land in the intestines? Doesn't this cause liquid discharges and a bloated feeling?

I really don't like drinking this much water as I'm just not thirsty.  I must force myself to do it.  It hasn't caused any problems other than having to pee more frequently, but I find that it is annoying to have to constantly keep to a schedule or I just won't drink enough.  I now try to drink 16 oz (1/2 litre) every 2 to 3 hours all throughout the day.

Danny, My experience is about the same as yours.  I prettly much was only thirsty after meals and probably drank only 1 to 1.5 litres per day.  The only time I drank more was when I was working in the hot sun and then I drank a lot but most of it was lost in sweat rather than as urine.

Lex

[Nicola]

I really don't like drinking this much water as I'm just not thirsty.  I must force myself to do it.  It hasn't caused any problems other than having to pee more frequently, but I find that it is annoying to have to constantly keep to a schedule or I just won't drink enough.  I now try to drink 16 oz (1/2 litre) every 2 to 3 hours all throughout the day.

Danny, My experience is about the same as yours.  I prettly much was only thirsty after meals and probably drank only 1 to 1.5 litres per day.  The only time I drank more was when I was working in the hot sun and then I drank a lot but most of it was lost in sweat rather than as urine.

Lex

Well I get bloated and because I go swimming, rid, and run (in the morning, first thing) I can feel more water in my intestines. Water in the morning seems to work out better than after eating raw meat and fat - I don't like to drink for quite a while after eating! I can not understand why one should drown down water (that does not even feel good) just like once I have eaten then that's it. Not natural to feel seasick.

Nicola

[goodsamaritan]

I am on raw omnivore and I do not like drinking plain water.
I think drinking anything more than 2 liters of plain water is insane unless you are a laborer like a construction worker.

I am concerned about drinking too much water. 
When is it too much plain water when on zero carb?

[lex_rooker]

I am concerned about drinking too much water. 
When is it too much plain water when on zero carb?

I suppose the real question is when is it too much water period.  People have died by drinking over doing it on water.  We have a famous case here in California where a couple of radio personalities on a Sacramento radio station thought it would be fun (and harmless) to have a water drinking competition.  Two people died.

In my case I'm convinced that 1 to 1.5 litres per day is on the low side and probably contributed to my kidney stone formation but of course that's just a theory and I can't prove it one way or the other.  On the other hand, I'm sure that 5 or 6 litres per day (unless doing hard work in a warm environment) is probably over doing it.  I expect something between these two extremes is reasonable.  Right now I'm pushing the high side at 3 - 4 litres per day to assure that my urine is very dilute to see if maybe the remaining stone will start to dissolve.  I'll keep at this rate for a year or so and see what the next CT scan looks like.  I'll then decide what other steps - if any - I'm going to take.

Lex

[Dextery]

A couple of water posts:

http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/

http://www.lowcarb.org/water1.html

[goodsamaritan]

I suppose the real question is when is it too much water period.  People have died by drinking over doing it on water.  We have a famous case here in California where a couple of radio personalities on a Sacramento radio station thought it would be fun (and harmless) to have a water drinking competition.  Two people died.

In my case I'm convinced that 1 to 1.5 litres per day is on the low side and probably contributed to my kidney stone formation but of course that's just a theory and I can't prove it one way or the other.  On the other hand, I'm sure that 5 or 6 litres per day (unless doing hard work in a warm environment) is probably over doing it.  I expect something between these two extremes is reasonable.  Right now I'm pushing the high side at 3 - 4 litres per day to assure that my urine is very dilute to see if maybe the remaining stone will start to dissolve.  I'll keep at this rate for a year or so and see what the next CT scan looks like.  I'll then decide what other steps - if any - I'm going to take.

Lex

Lex, in one of my studies regarding re-hydration, it seems we can only utilize so much water during a certain period of time.  So frequency is better than just one bulk drinking (drink every 30 mins).  The water cure by batmanghelj uses salt.  Don't know how salt fits into zero carb.

see http://www.watercure2.org/ and try to adapt it to zero carb

[PaleoPhil]

Lex, I found a research article that said the Inuit sweated a lot (which I find amazing in the Arctic). This could account for the 5-6 liter figure, though I still find that unbelievably high. Just 2.5 or more liters a day seems to stretch my bladder painfully--especially if I don't get enough out before sleeping.

[RawZi]

    Maybe it never gets to the bladder.  Perhaps anorak, inner pants, outer pants, inner gloves, outer gloves, caribou amauti and  sealskin kamik caused massive perspiration often enough?     

[lex_rooker]

The links provided by Dextery and GS seem to support the need for extra water - especially when on a VLC or ZC diet.  They also seem to support the link of lack of water to kidney stones but they don't give much detail. The recommended minimum seems to be about 2 litres or 1/2 gallon of water per day, and the goal seems to be to eliminate about 1.5 litres of urine per day.  I'm drinking at least 3 litres and elimating a little over 1.5 litres per day so I'm in the ballpark.

Thanks for the info,

Lex

[William]

Lex, in one of my studies regarding re-hydration, it seems we can only utilize so much water during a certain period of time.  So frequency is better than just one bulk drinking (drink every 30 mins).  The water cure by batmanghelj uses salt.  Don't know how salt fits into zero carb.

It is an electrolyte, and prevents excessive dilution of the blood. Dilute the blood too much and die - this is what killed the marathon runners, and others I guess.
I've found it necessary to add a little dried seawater to my drinking water when doing sweaty work in summer.

[carnivore]

And what if water was the most valuable nutrient in fruits and veggies ?

[RawZi]

    I recall eating fruits and veggies for just that reason as a teen, when I was thirsty. 

    I also gave it to my pets for same.  I gave them water, but they preferred these foods and abstained from the fresh water each day.  I did not think to give them raw meat though.  If I had those same pets again, I would try it. I may have done them wrong by this.

[Michael]

I'm still not convinced we should be drinking these vast quantities of water.  I've been trying to up my intake but it doesn't feel right if I'm really having to force myself to do it!  Surely we need to be relying on our instincts here a little?!  I haven't looked at those Dextery links yet but will do so when I get a chance.

Lex, in one of my studies regarding re-hydration, it seems we can only utilize so much water during a certain period of time.  So frequency is better than just one bulk drinking (drink every 30 mins).  The water cure by batmanghelj uses salt.  Don't know how salt fits into zero carb.

I'm still currently using salt, gs, on my vlc regime.  I read batmanghelj's books a long time ago too and do add a pinch of celtic salt to my water flask.  I find that I do much better when I do this compared to when I don't.  But, much of what we do, of course, depends upon the unique state of our bodies and, having previously suffered from adrenal insufficiency, salt retention is/has been an issue for me personally.

Lex, I found a research article that said the Inuit sweated a lot (which I find amazing in the Arctic). This could account for the 5-6 liter figure, though I still find that unbelievably high. Just 2.5 or more liters a day seems to stretch my bladder painfully--especially if I don't get enough out before sleeping.

I seem to recall reading that much of the sweating was done in their igloos with the internal temperatures becoming sufficiently hot.  Likewise, I'm really struggling to up my intake and am still only managing to drink 1-1.5 ltrs per day.

They also seem to support the link of lack of water to kidney stones but they don't give much detail.

I recently came across a wonderful article on insulin resistance by Dr Ron Rosedale MD  http://nourishedmagazine.com.au/blog/articles/insulin-resistance-the-real-culprit.  I don't know if it's ever been discussed here before but it seems to contain some great information clearly presented.  A highly recommended read even if some of his dietary conclusions leave a little to be desired.
The point that I found relevant to this particular discussion was this:

The medical profession just assume a Calcium supplement has a homing device and it knows to go into your bone. What happens if you high levels of insulin and you take a bunch of calcium? Most of it is just going to go out in your urine. You would be lucky if that were the case because that part which doesn’t does not have the instructions to go to your bone because the anabolic hormones aren’t working. This is first of all because of insulin, then because of the IGF’s from growth hormone, also testosterone and progesterone, they are all controlled by insulin and when they are insulin resistant they can’t listen to any of the anabolic hormones. So your body doesn’t know how to build tissue anymore, so some of the calcium may end up in your bone, but a good deal of it will end up everywhere else. Metastatic calcifications, including in your arteries.

Lex, I'm sure you've already considered this but perhaps the development of your stones took place during previous inappropriate diets and are only being shifted now by the body as it's given the nutrients and conditions to repair itself?  The water factor could be a total red herring?!  I think the above discussion (particularly when read in context of the whole article) gives a clue to what the root cause of the stone development may have been initially.

[van]

I also am appreciate Rosedale's writings.  He also highly recommends that we eat at least two meals, preferably three meals a day to spread out or intake of protein, which he believes is harmful if eaten in excess. He believes our bodies only have a certain need at any one time to repair and rebuild.  Excesses have to be processed out of the body and also raise insulin levels.   I know when I eat 'too' much protein, my urine turns dark.  It appears to be a good indicator.

[Michael]

How much protein does he consider excessive?  How much are you currently consuming van?  I am resticting my protein to 80-100g per day split over 2 meals which seems to be working well.  I'm trying to consume 80-85% calories from fat.  My urine's not excessively dark despite only consuming 1 - 1.5ltrs of water per day.

Do you have any recommended links to other works by Rosedale?