Lex's Journal

[goodsamaritan]

goodsamaritan,

What is the best alternative way to get read of them? Chanca Piedra, lemon ?

I also experienced very small stones some time ago but I took some pills to make me urinate a lot (I did not know that alternatives existed). Not sure if they actually helped but since I did not feel the slight pain after a while I assumed it cleared out and did not bother to actually check for it. I'm asking in case I get those again.

Thanks.

I think it's better if you send me a PM or you open a new thread in the health section.

[alphagruis]

Nothing but morphine will even touch the pain and I have to go to a hospital to get that.  I do have Vicodin, but don’t bother taking it as it does nothing.  Pretty much I’m forced to tough it out unless I want to go to the emergency room.

Yes only morphine is capable to allieviate the pain.

There is however a natural way that helped me repeatedly to get some release and rest when I expelled my kidney stones . It's just a fairly hot (above 40 °C) bath that relaxes all the organs under stress (uretera, bladder, uretra) and favors the progression of the stones with less pain.

[alphagruis]

"stone" conjures up something with smooth surfaces.  Is this a bad assumption on my part?   do these actually have sharp edges  and needles?

"stone" would never make me think of  of bleeding ... not like the way they describe gout,  "crystal in your joint"

Yes, kidney stones can have very sharp edges, sometimes like a razor.

As the stone tools of our paleo ancestors 

[alphagruis]

Lex, I know you are aware of the "alternative" ways of getting rid of these little buggers immediately like the lemon cure, etc.  Why not get rid of these stones pronto?

When I experienced my kidney stones I tried many cures, essentially everything I could find out (lemon and many other plants). Yet nothing, absolutely nothing worked in my case.

Except switching on RPD.

[William]

I don’t worry about my meat being frozen at all.  I prefer it frozen.  It allows me to have several months worth of food on hand.  Life is always a trade-off.  My guess is that meat that was frozen a few hours after slaughter is no more deteriorated than “fresh” meat that has been rotting and breaking down at warmer temperatures for several days.  Frozen meat makes my life simpler and I can spend my time on other things of interest like fixing antique clocks.

How much freezer space have you? I've found it awkward to have only 10 cu. ft.

[PaleoPhil]

Lex, I know you are aware of the "alternative" ways of getting rid of these little buggers immediately like the lemon cure, etc.  Why not get rid of these stones pronto?

GS, years ago I tried the "lemon cure" and cranberry juice and other recommended remedies for kidney stones and none of them worked at all. The only thing that helped me was eliminating gluten and adopting a conventional cooked Paleo diet. I went from having chronic kidney stones and urine that was frequently brown or oily or blood-spotted or particle-filled to crystal clear. Gradually it became hay-colored. Now that I eat raw carnivore, my urine is yellow and bubbly, but so far no brown, oily, blood-spotted or particle-filled urine.

[lex_rooker]

Lex, I know you are aware of the "alternative" ways of getting rid of these little buggers immediately like the lemon cure, etc.  Why not get rid of these stones pronto?

Tried several and none worked.  Did the lemon cure, Celery seed cure, Coke & asparagus cure, cranberry cure, and a couple of others.  Believe me, when you are in the kind of pain these things cause you'll try anything hoping for a miracle. Unfortunately, no miracle happened and there was no change to the size or position of the stones.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

Yes only morphine is capable to allieviate the pain.

There is however a natural way that helped me repeatedly to get some release and rest when I expelled my kidney stones . It's just a fairly hot (above 40 °C) bath that relaxes all the organs under stress (uretera, bladder, uretra) and favors the progression of the stones with less pain.

Very interesting.  I also found that a very hot bath or shower was the only thing other than morphine that had any effect.  The hot water does seem to relax everything and though I can't say it speeds things up, under some circumstances it does seem to reduce the pain temporarily.  It doesn't work every time though.  If the pain is very intense, indicating to me a very narrow area that the stone is passing through, then nothing but morphine will work and even that won't eliminate all the pain - just makes it tollerable.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

"stone" conjures up something with smooth surfaces.  Is this a bad assumption on my part?   do these actually have sharp edges  and needles?

The stone is more like an open crystal structure with sharp points and small needle like projections.  It scrapes its way through ureters and urethera shredding tissue along the way.  The only way I can describe the pain is to think of very slowly ripping your stomach open with the point of an ice pick while continuosly pouring alcohol on the wound.  The pain is relentless and can continue at an intense level for hours at a time.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

How much freezer space have you? I've found it awkward to have only 10 cu. ft.

I have a 7 cu ft chest freezer that is dedicated to storing my meat and can easily store 3 to 4 months worth of food.  That's somewhere between 180 and 240 lbs.

Lex

[Nicola]

I just did a couple of saltwater flushes.  1 tablespoon (15ml) of salt mixed with 1 quart (1 litre) of water.  Mix well and drink all of it quickly.  I did this the morning and again in the evening of the day before the exam, and didn’t eat anything from the time I started until the exam was over.

Lex

Lex, I had a go at this (only I used rocksalt because that's what I happen to have) and only had an output of some brown water (I expected to have a lot come out - I have experienced that eating meat and fat does kind of "line" the colon more than we would like to believe) in the morning. You did it again in the evening - did this have a different affect or did you have the same kind of result as in the morning?

Did you drink more during the day and did you feel bloated in any why after or during the following days?

How's the running going?

Nicola

[PaleoPhil]

Tried several and none worked.  Did the lemon cure, Celery seed cure, Coke & asparagus cure, cranberry cure, and a couple of others.  ...

I doubt you'll try it again, but to further warn others I'll note that the Coke & asparagus cure is particularly bogus, as the phosphoric acid in colas has been linked to the creation of kidney stones (see http://www.dailyherald.com/story/print/?id=232972 and
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kidney.html, for example).

[lex_rooker]

Lex, I had a go at this (only I used rocksalt because that's what I happen to have) and only had an output of some brown water (I expected to have a lot come out - I have experienced that eating meat and fat does kind of "line" the colon more than we would like to believe) in the morning. You did it again in the evening - did this have a different affect or did you have the same kind of result as in the morning?

I used plain salt (not iodized salt).  For it to work, the salt concentration must be pretty high, at least 15 ml (1 tablespoon) per litre (quart).

I have no evidence that there is anything sticking to the sides or lining the colon.  I wonder how you know that this is happening to you since it would take a colonoscopy to see it.  I’ve had a colonoscopy while eating only meat and fat and there was no evidence of anything sticking to my colon or lining it.  In fact, the opposite was true.  My colon was clean and smooth.

Did you drink more during the day and did you feel bloated in any why after or during the following days?

Gosh, I really don’t remember drinking more or less or whether I felt bloated or not.  At the time I was much more concerned about the medical procedure.

How's the running going?

I run now and then but not regularly.  I try to walk 10 – 12 miles (15-20 km) per week while getting as close to full body sun exposure as public modesty will allow.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

I doubt you'll try it again, but to further warn others I'll note that the Coke & asparagus cure is particularly bogus, as the phosphoric acid in colas has been linked to the creation of kidney stones (see http://www.dailyherald.com/story/print/?id=232972 and
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kidney.html, for example).

I found the Coke and asparagus cure rather amusing, especially when reading the "why it works" section of the documentation.  The theory is that since phosphoric acid will dissolve calcium based stuff like bones and teeth, then it should dissolve calcium based kidney stones as well, right?  Well, it is true that if you put bone or a tooth (or a calcium based kidney stone) into a jar filled with Coke it will soften and dissolve them.  The problem comes with the idea that the phosphoric acid will be directly absorbed from the stomach into the blood and then go to the kidneys and dissolve the calcium based kidney stones.  If this were to actually happen we'd quickly die from low blood ph.  Just as our stomach acid is neutralized in the digestion process, any acidic food is neutralized as well.  Like most magic cures, they sound good to the uninformed, but fall apart under close scrutiny.

Lex

[majormark]

^ I imagine it could work if they could find a way to perforate the tract and poor the stuff in directly over the stone. Should be possible, at least in my mind, but maybe the stone would need to sit in the solution for a while in order to start dissolving significantly.
The last option is surgery, of course.

[Nicola]

I have no evidence that there is anything sticking to the sides or lining the colon.  I wonder how you know that this is happening to you since it would take a colonoscopy to see it.  I’ve had a colonoscopy while eating only meat and fat and there was no evidence of anything sticking to my colon or lining it.  In fact, the opposite was true.  My colon was clean and smooth.

Well if meat eaters should have a discharge then it must come from somewhere! I did the same as you once in the morning (had a little runny discharge from this) and once in the evening (nothing happend). By the end of the day I got heavy legs from holding back all the water (salt)! I was glad to eat again the next day; still puffy - I must be a total failure - if I ever have a discharge it is runny and doing this NcNcleans didn't make me feel exactly energetic and light

Nicola

[lex_rooker]

^ I imagine it could work if they could find a way to perforate the tract and poor the stuff in directly over the stone. Should be possible, at least in my mind, but maybe the stone would need to sit in the solution for a while in order to start dissolving significantly.
The last option is surgery, of course.

As I remember we did an experiment in 6th grade science class where we put a tooth in a glass of Coca Cola.  After a week about half of it was dissolved.  That's a long time to hold it.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

Nicola,
Not sure that what is quoted demonstrates that something is permanently sticking to the sides of the colon.  There will always be a small amount of material that is not expelled, just as there is a small amount of toothpaste left in the tube that just can't be squeezed out but could be washed away if water were run through the tube.  This doesn't mean that there is a thick layer of build up of material that coats the colon and can only be removed by magic herbal remedies. 

Think about getting mud, dirt, or grease on your hands.  As much as you'd like, you can't remove all of it by squeezing your hands together.  Due to the irregular surfaces, there will always be a small amount that will stick.  If you add more, it doesn't build up, you're still able to remove all but that last amount.  Same with the toothpaste tube.  You can add more toothpaste to the tube and again squeeze all but the last bit out.  It doesn't build up.

The more liquid something is, the thinner the remaining layer.  So in the case of dirty hands, the toothpaste tube, or your colon, if you thin the material with water, some will dissolve and flow away, but no matter what you do, some residual will always remain.  Even pouring water over a vertical surface will leave that surface wet with a layer of water.  Pouring more water over the vertical surface does not create a build up.  The amount remaining is determined by physical properties like surface tension, adhesion, capillary action, viscosity, etc of the material as well as the properties of the surface that the material is on.

Lex

[goodsamaritan]

Lex,

Alphagruis has some successful experience eliminating kidney stones...

During the period 1984-1999 I've repeatedly expelled kidney stones and experienced numerous episodes of nephretic colics. As shown by regular scans ( every 6-12 months) new stones formed systematically...

The stones stopped in 1999 after I had changed my diet to raw paleo in december 1998. Six months after beginning raw paleo the scans showed that no new stones had formed for the first time after 15 years...

I'm stone-free ever since.

Very impressive

Maybe you can have a chat with him to find out how he did it?

[lex_rooker]

Lex,

Alphagruis has some successful experience eliminating kidney stones...

Maybe you can have a chat with him to find out how he did it?

Good thought, maybe he'll commment.  Alphagruis?

Lex

[alphagruis]

Hi Lex,

I hope that Phatdave doesn't mind me quoting our recent personal mail exchange.

Hi Alphagruis,

Can a person avoid kidney stones eating VLC? Is ZC the culprit, or some other factor?

Thank you, I choose not to rehash this in Lex's thread to save his worrying over them - if indeed a man such as he does worry!

David

Hi David,

Frankly I don't know and probably nobody does. We have to experiment, I'm afraid, with the accompanying risks. What I have observed on myself is that after 15 years of painful kidney stones  I could get rid of them (no new ones formed) in 1999 after only about 6 months on RPD. This was a very impressive experience and I am still deeply impressed.

My diet was strictly raw but rather omnivore though with a substantial quantity of food of animal origin. So I cannot seriously conclude from my medium to low carb experience what happens with ZC or VLC. 

Yet my gut feeling is that if the diet is strictly raw, as is Lex's one, ZC or VLC is probably not the culprit as one might expect from some observations with cooked ZC or VLC diets. My guess is that stone formation is rather a matter of heat generated toxins that perturb the kidney function.

As I said in Lex's journal the stones might well have formed before his ZC diet and  it is only now once a few years on his more appropriate diet that he has recovered sufficiently for his organism to undertake the painful elimination of these "old" stones.

I'm fairly confident and think that Lex can stay on his diet with little risk. Provided  he checks (as he does) with periodic scans that no new stones or calcifications form anywhere in the forthcoming months. If unfortunately new stones formed he will know it rapidly and can then still safely take action.

I recovered from a much worse kidney stone history, without RPD I would have died many years ago. 

As you do I also choose to not make him worry unnecessarily about this. He is indeed a tough guy and I am deeply impressed by his journal and posts.

Gérard 

As you can see my experience is essentially that in my case 6 months on an omnivore raw paleo diet brought to an end a long history of extremely painful nephretic colics. It's just a fact and we have to be cautious in drawing any conclusions from it, except for sure that the standard european or american diet is just crap.

As I said I really think that in your case as long as there is no evidence of formation of new stones there is probably nothing to seriously worry about. You'll "just" have to manage the pending pain when expelling the already existing stones. 

I am wondering: Wasn't there ever any evidence of kidneys stones in medical images taken before you went on RPD? Well I know one can usually see only what one is looking for.
 

 

[lex_rooker]

As I said I really think that in your case as long as there is no evidence of formation of new stones there is probably nothing to seriously worry about.

It is on my list to add a scan for kidney stones to my annual physical and lab tests.

You'll "just" have to manage the pending pain when expelling the already existing stones. 

Oh Boy, I can hardly wait!   Unfortunately, neither of my current stones has passed yet so there is still much more fun to come.  One is in the bladder awaiting some inopportune time to make its exit, and the other one is still working its way from the kidney to the bladder.  Both stones are about 3mm.

I am wondering: Wasn't there ever any evidence of kidneys stones in medical images taken before you went on RPD? Well I know one can usually see only what one is looking for.

No clue whatsoever, but then I haven’t had a CT scan or x-ray of the lower abdomen area for longer than I can remember.  I think the last time I had one was in the military about 40 years ago.  I did have a DEXA scan a few months ago to check bone density, but my understanding is that the resolution of this scan is not sufficient to detect things like kidney stones or tissue calcification.

Lex
 

[alphagruis]

Oh Boy, I can hardly wait!  Unfortunately, neither of my current stones has passed yet so there is still much more fun to come.  One is in the bladder awaiting some inopportune time to make its exit, and the other one is still working its way from the kidney to the bladder.  Both stones are about 3mm.


Lex
  

According to my experience the stone that is already in the bladder should be expelled with essentially no pain at all. A stone 3mm in diameter passes easily through the urethra. As far as I can remember I passed even bigger ones (4mm) without pain. The phenomenon is very rapid, nothing to do with the terrible painful lengthy progression from kidney to bladder in uretera.

It is even quite amusing:  

In my case what happened usually was that on the happy day the stone made his decision to quit the bladder during a pee there is first no unusual feeling. The stream of urine first rushes out as usual, but then suddenly it is interrupted for a very short while when the stone engages into the urethra and there is a clear "feeling of pressure build up". Once the pressure is sufficient, one suddenly "feels" the stone rushing out and the pee stream happily resumes. When peeing inside in standard water clo one gets additional fun when one hears a nice "bling" at the stone's impact on the ceramic.

I miss those happy days 

[lex_rooker]

According to my experience the stone that is already in the bladder should be expelled with essentially no pain at all. A stone 3mm in diameter passes easily through the urethra. As far as I can remember I passed even bigger ones (4mm) without pain. The phenomenon is very rapid, nothing to do with the terrible painful lengthy progression from kidney to bladder in uretera. 

I can only hope that this will be the case for me as well.  With symptoms of BPH, there is a restriction at the prostate.  In my case there is normally very little pressure and I must totally relax to release urine.  My doctor says that I may experinece the interrupted stream and then I'll have to drink a large a mount of water to create the necessary pressure in the bladder to expel the stone.  He expects that, in my case, the process may take awhile and that I'll most likely be rather uncomfortable (from being unable to urinate if nothing else) until the stone finally releases. I'll give the details here as things progress.

Thanks for sharing your experinece.  It's reassuring that the stone's final trip will be somewhat less tramatic than its initial voyage.  I still have a stone lodged up in the kidney area on the right side.  It has already moved a couple of inches.  It is really frustrating knowing that such intense pain can strike at anytime and without warning.  Will be glad when this saga is over.

Lex

[bleeding]

The stone is more like an open crystal structure with sharp points and small needle like projections.  It scrapes its way through ureters and urethera shredding tissue along the way.  The only way I can describe the pain is to think of very slowly ripping your stomach open with the point of an ice pick while continuosly pouring alcohol on the wound.  The pain is relentless and can continue at an intense level for hours at a time.

Lex

boy oh boy.  Thanks for the technical info, and my pupils shrunk to near zero, and most of my scrotum and penis retracted completely into my abdomen in sympathetic pain