Lex's Journal

[lex_rooker]

I admit, i am too lazy to go find what you wrote about. SO why did you add carbs back in your diet?

When did I say that I added carbs back into my diet? 

Lex

[pc701]

oh sorry i thought you said you ate berries and cucumbers.

[lex_rooker]

I agree.  I continued being vegan and believing it was the best for everything for incredibly long.  Lex is older, I tend to think in his case he has more of a grasp of what's good for him than most people.  He keeps up with his bloodwork and check-ups too, and it seems generally he gets healthier.  I'm assuming you're younger than I am and still younger that when I started RAF.  Of course age doesn't mean everything or much in all cases.  I just think after a couple decades more experience you may try zero-carb too.  You haven't tried that.  Have you?  And I do know you are trying to help him, that's very nice.

RawZi,
It took me many years but I finally figured out that a person in their 20s can eat just about anything and still appear to perform well.  I have a nephew who is 23 and he thinks he's doing just fine on french fries, twinkies, soda, and candy bars (for energy!), with the occasional Big Mac or Quarter Pounder w/cheese to round out the food groups.  He's a wrestler in college and wins a fair share of his matches.  He's already losing his teeth but insists that it's not caused by his diet because he says he feels great.  His father has eaten almost exactly the same way all his life and is now 61.  Not only are his teeth all gone, but his knees, hips, and ankles are pretty much gone as well - to the point that surgery is no longer an option - there's just not enough bone left to work with. His whole body is a wreck. The doctors have led him to believe that his problems are genetic even though no one else anywhere in his family tree suffers from anything like this.  His son is also insisting that because he otherwise feels good, the fact that he's losing his teeth and heading down the same path as his father must be genetic as well.  Of course the doctors have no idea that they only eat whole packages of Oreo cookies, ½ dozen candy bars, Twinkies and several litres of soda all day long and maybe eat a chili dog or Big Mac with a large order of fries once a day.

In short, as we age, we are much less resilient and what we eat has a more profound effect on us.  As such, I’ve learned not to listen to closely to the claims of the 20 and 30 something’s when they proclaim that they’ve found the Holy Grail of diets or that diet doesn’t matter and you can eat anything you want and be healthy.  Better to wait 20 years and see how it turns out in the long term – especially when there is precious little documentation other than their claims to support their beliefs.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

oh sorry i thought you said you ate berries and cucumbers.

I can't find that I said that anywhere.

Lex

[pc701]

"My carb source of choice would be wild tart fruits like berries, or nonsweet fruits like tomatoes and cucumbers, with the occasional small amount of green plant material thrown in for color." I thought you were actually eating this

[lex_rooker]

"My carb source of choice would be wild tart fruits like berries, or nonsweet fruits like tomatoes and cucumbers, with the occasional small amount of green plant material thrown in for color." I thought you were actually eating this

I suppose the key words here are "would be". I also figure that this sentence

"I agree that we shouldn't need supplements to lead a healthy life, however, I don't assume that my current ZC dietary protocol is in any way the best approach, it is just the approach I'm following at the moment."
 
in the same posting was clear and to the point.  Actually this is why I seldom give advice.  People tend see what they want to see, not what is written.  I tend to do this myself.  I suppose it is human nature.

Lex

[William]

Interesting that you should come to this conclusion since I've been eating raw meat for over 4 years now and developed kidney stones.  I agree that we shouldn't need supplements to lead a healthy life, however, I don't assume that my current ZC dietary protocol is in any way the best approach, it is just the approach I'm following at the moment.  My current thinking is that raw VLC with a few carbs (30g-50g/day) coming from a bit of  is probably a sounder overall approach.

/my bad. I had thought that you were not sure when the stones were developed.
Some years ago I read that in Britain, people did not get surgery for gallstones (the National Health scheme would not pay), but instead were told to drink a special kind of tea which dissolved the stones. AFAIK it worked.
Maybe the potassium citrate can do something similar.
When I still had heart arrhythmia, I took potassium gluconate when it got bad. It is supposed to support electrolyte mineral balance and nerve conduction. I still have most of the 1 lb. jar of the pure powder.
I don't know what else it is good for.

Green plant material and/or tart or non sweet fruits smells like herbal medicine to me, so I would get advice from a competent person before choosing.

[PaleoPhil]

I have been thinking along the same lines as you, Lex. My plan all along was to eventually re-introduce some berries and greens into my diet. I still consider that part of a facultatively carnivorous primate diet. Right now I've been eating some dried kelp with my meat, fat, eggs, organs, etc. I figured that maybe the Mg and iodine in kelp might help and Satya's warnings about iodine deficiency motivated me to get started on the greens experiment. Can't say that I notice any difference, positive or negative, though, but maybe it adds a margin of safety to avoid problems like kidney stones. At least it made my lady friend happy. Now she has hope that maybe I haven't gone quite as crazy as she thought.

I don't recommend tomatoes or any other nightshade though, based not just on my experience and the anecdotes of numerous other people, but some recent research by Cordain's team and biological explanations (lectins causing leaky gut, which then leads to other problems, etc.) as well. Cordain doesn't go so far as to recommend that everyone avoid them, but I think that people like you and me with a history of chronic health problems should err on the side of caution and eschew them. I think the old view that nightshades were poisonous has an element of truth in it--not literally poisonous for most people, but potentially harmful in the long run.

Originally I was going to wait for berry season to try some fruit, but I got a head start when I ran very low on fat. My first experiment with fruit re-introduction went sour though (pardon the pun), when I developed a nasty canker sore. I suspect that it was caused by the small amount of pineapple-which is very acidic--that I included in my small bowl of berries and grapes. I guessed that the pineapple wasn't a good idea, but I have a hard time resisting it because I love the taste of raw, fresh pineapple, and I thought that 4 or 5 chunks would be safe--wrong!

[RawZi]

Originally I was going to wait for berry season to try some fruit, but I got a head start when I ran very low on fat. My first experiment with fruit re-introduction went sour though (pardon the pun), when I developed a nasty canker sore. I suspect that it was caused by the small amount of pineapple-which is very acidic--that I included in my small bowl of berries and grapes. I guessed that the pineapple wasn't a good idea, but I have a hard time resisting it because I love the taste of raw, fresh pineapple, and I thought that 4 or 5 chunks would be safe--wrong!

    I couldn't eat oranges or pineapple, my son couldn't eat pineapple or kiwi.  We find those foods edible with raw butter.  Maybe you can take tart berries and make an akutaq - ? - a-goo-duk (Eskimo frozen dessert).  It's made with whipped seal fat.  I've made a makeshift akutaq with fat, berries and fish.  It was good, but nothing like its Western counterpart.

[KD]

I was shopping around for a coconut product on this site (primal diet proponents) and came across this woman's horrible story

http://www.naturesjuicecoop.com/story_renee.php

it mentions she tried lithotripsy (crushing of kidney stones with sonic waves), but apparently that didn't work well enough because the next couple of pages or so are filled with abhorent medical abuse. The end of the story is that Primal Diet solved all her problems, and unfortunately doesn't mention much about any other specifics with the stones. The only thought I had was that the vegetable juices could be one overlooked factor, being much more hydrating than water, and perhaps cleaning the blood somewhat as to avoid the beginnings of deposits forming. This of course is just my uneducated guess and realize juice is frowned upon. Perhaps carbonated mineral water might be another asset.

[PaleoPhil]

   I couldn't eat oranges or pineapple, my son couldn't eat pineapple or kiwi.  We find those foods edible with raw butter.  Maybe you can take tart berries and make an akutaq - ? - a-goo-duk (Eskimo frozen dessert).  It's made with whipped seal fat.  I've made a makeshift akutaq with fat, berries and fish.  It was good, but nothing like its Western counterpart.

Good idea, RawZi. I can mix blueberries with beef tallow (and water if necessary).

[Hannibal]

Yes i eat eggs, although i dont know if i should be discarding the egg white or not.

Yes, you should. Raw white contains enzyme inhibitors and avidin so it's better to avoid it.

[Hannibal]

How would you propose to know that you are in ketonemia unless ketonuria is present at some level for you to measure?  Any peer reviewed studies you can point to that support your statement?

Ketonemia means that you've got ketones in your bloodstream. The way to measure the level of it is with blood test.
Ketonuria, on the other hand, describes the buildup and excretion of keton bodies in the urine, which occurs due to the accumulation of ketones in the kidney. The degree of ketonuria can be measured by the use of Ketostix.
You can be on low-carb diet, consume 50-100 g of carbs, use ketones to fuel many cells, but you'll not see any excretion of ketones bodies in you urine.

[Paleo Donk]

There is much evidence that zero carb (ketogenic diets) can be the cause of kidney stones and are not their cure.  Children with epilepsy are often put on ketogenic diets and they develop kidney stones at a much greater rate than those who eat enough carbs to remain out of ketosis.  I doubt that sun exposure has much to do with it but of course I don't really know.  Since there was no lab work done to check for stones before I started this dietary adventure, we have no baseline to compare with.  One thing that is common to my case as well as many others, is that I wasn't drinking a lot of fluids so urine output was low and the specific gravity of the urine was high.  This is also the case with those on a ketogenic diet for epilepsy, their fluid intake is low as well so this may be the real key.

I have a real problem with this "evidence" you claim regarding kids developing kidney stones on ketogenic diets. I've read the summaries of the studies that you've read and IIRC only about 2-6% of the kids get kidney stones at sometime during the study. I even think I saw a line somewhere stating that this isn't even statistically significant when you compare this to the percentage of epileptic kids getting kidney stones period on any diet.

Also, and probably the biggest factor of all is that these kids are most likely fed one of the worst abominations of a ketogenic diet that anyone could concoct. I have not seen the actual breakdown of food that they eat only the macronutrient content but I have seen a short news story about ketogenic diets on the news and this is what I gather - These scientists love polyunsaturates and still are hugely phobic of the natural fats. They feed these kids cups of  canola oil to go along with there most likely well done meats, crispy bacon, etc.. IMO there is no comparison and this is exactly the reason success with these diets for these kids is so low and not the 90+% they would easily achieve if they lightly cooked pasture fed beef with real animal fats.

Also worhty mentioning is the very high likelyhood that these kids cheat and some probably cheat a lot. Dr. Eades just wrote a piece on people cheating, even in metabollic ward studies.

Have you considered this?

Dexter sent me an emial with an article stating that children on a ketogenic diet for epilepsy were having great success by adding potassium citrate to every meal.  This seems to keep the stones from forming.  What the mechanism is I have no idea as the article didn't say.

I posted the links to the diets below and potassium citrate was mentioned as something that worked well.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/health/food-poisoning-again/msg27288/#msg27288

[lex_rooker]

/my bad. I had thought that you were not sure when the stones were developed.

You are correct, I don’t know when the stones developed.  However, I don’t assume that they pre-existed and that my diet is curing them either.  There is absolutely no evidence of this. In fact, with my very dense urine, bordering on dehydration, there is more evidence to support that the stones formed under these conditions. Maybe as time goes on and I have a chance to monitor the stones further we’ll know more.  But you see, I’ve changed the conditions by consuming more water, so nothing I do now will be definitive.

Some years ago I read that in Britain, people did not get surgery for gallstones (the National Health scheme would not pay), but instead were told to drink a special kind of tea which dissolved the stones. AFAIK it worked.

I’ve tried every cure in the book including all the teas, juices, and stuff and x-rays show that none of it works.  Potassium citrate is supposed to keep the stones from developing.  As far as I know there is no evidence that they dissolve existing stones
 

Green plant material and/or tart or non sweet fruits smells like herbal medicine to me, so I would get advice from a competent person before choosing.

Nothing at all to do with herbal medicine and everything to do with what I have come to believe early man most likely ate. I would not be eating these things to ‘cure’ any condition, but rather as a part of a complete diet when such foods are in season.  I would remain primarily a carnivore with maybe 5% of calories coming from plant sources.

Lex

[RawZi]

...  I would remain primarily a carnivore with maybe 5% of calories coming from plant sources.

    aajonus says something about 5% carbohydrates too.  I hope you eating 5% plant matter in the manner you described (in season foods only) will give you more improved health.

[pc701]

Did you develop kidney stones while being raw vegan lex? If not then that might say something to outsiders.

[RawZi]

Did you develop kidney stones while being raw vegan lex? If not then that might say something to outsiders.

    Yeah.  If that was the case, we might know he doesn't have lupus now.  I've never had kidney stones that I know of, but I have normal range specific gravity now.  Vegan and raw vegan I always had lower than normal range specific gravity.  When I had lupus (I was vegan no RAF no AF), I had low specific gravity.  Lex says high specific gravity causes kidney stones.  I know the stones are painful, but I would prefer my kidneys function.  My kidneys are supposed to filter toxins to the outside of my body.  My toxins were staying in me when I was vegan.  Now toxins come out if they are there, and excess non-usable material comes out too, so I don't need an overload of antibodies, which RAFs got rid of for me.  So yes, I bet veganism might prevent kidney stones, but who knows the whole overview?  Things I'm sure are likely more complicated.

    Are you participating on raw vegan forums too?  I am.  Never stopped.  Just stopped the "one".  Never said I'm vegan.  I just speak what pertains.

    Maybe you'll help us all understand that Lex should not be eating raw meat.  

[pc701]

I have never been raw vegan up until i quit the RPD in the effort to help my kidneys. As a outsider (not specifically me), one might think that RPD can possibly be deterimental to kidneys by looking at yuri's and lex's journal.Who knows, maybe lex's theory of kidneys stones being caused by not drinking enough water might be wrong. Im just saying, beginners might have apprehensions going raw paleo if they see yuri and lex developing kidneys stones.

[pc701]

I meant not quiting RPD but quiting eating raw meats (probably temporarily).

[lex_rooker]

Did you develop kidney stones while being raw vegan lex? If not then that might say something to outsiders.

I have no previous history of any stones.  My first occurance was in November of 2009 after 4 years of pretty much raw zero carb.

As a outsider (not specifically me), one might think that RPD can possibly be deterimental to kidneys by looking at yuri's and lex's journal.... Im just saying, beginners might have apprehensions going raw paleo if they see yuri and lex developing kidneys stones.

I'm not sure that my development of kidney stones, (or Yuri's for that matter), has anything to do with RPD and everything to do with Zero Carb and low liquid intake.  Zero Carb and RPD are not the same thing.  Zero Carb is far more restrictive than RPD where would certainly include plant materials in the diet.  I do not worship at the alter of Zero Carb.  It is just an experiment which has had mostly positive outcomes with the exception of my BPH which didn't improve much and the development of kidney stones.  The truth is that I got most of the heatlh benenfits I enjoy today on my previous raw paleo VLC diet which I will probably return too in the future.

Lex

[Hannibal]

I meant not quiting RPD but quiting eating raw meats (probably temporarily).

Why? Eating raw meats doesn't lead to kidney stones.  ZC is the culprit. It's so simply proven in the biochemistry.

[pc701]

Because i suspect too much animal foods or protein can be trouble for some people. I will add some slowly and starting in small amounts.Again, i feel very good right now on this raw vegan diet, need less sleep, energy is the same if not better.

[TylerDurden]

Lex, given that you do  eat some cooked foods at times, (predominantly pemmican?) couldn't that be the issue re kidney stones rather than ZC as such? I mean kidney stones are such a common side-effect of cooked ketogenic diets, after all.

[Hannibal]

Because i suspect too much animal foods or protein can be trouble for some people. 

Nobody tells that we must eat a lot of protein. On rawpaleodiet you can eat less protein and more plant foods if you like.