Lex's Journal

[wodgina]

Thanks for the information I will be careful in indulging carbs but I will continue with zero carb until I reach 6 months then reevaluate.

It reminds me of of when I ate a pizza last year when a good mate come over,  I was on RVAF at the time and hadn't touched wheat for over a year. I passed out about an hour ofter finishing it,  I felt drugged it didn't feel like sleep. When I came out of it I was so exhausted I could hardly make it to bed.
I was so thirsty that night just kept getting up and drinking and drinking. Wheat is a drug for me.

[Satya]

As those who follow my journal are aware, several weeks ago I was in a position where I was unable to eat my normal food and had to make do with typical cafeteria fare.  I experienced some unpleasant side effects from this in the form of large amounts of water retention even though I did my best to eat only protein and fat and consume no obvious carbs.

Two weeks ago my wife and I attended a summer family gathering and I decide to throw caution to the wind, eat all the forbidden foods, and see what would happen.  The results are rather instructive and should be given consideration before a person decides to commit to a zero carb lifestyle. 

The framework of the experiment was that I ate my normal meal during the day and then consumed a large amount of carbs in the evening between about 6pm and 9pm.  The next day I returned to my normal meat only fare.  Here’s what happened.

At 4pm I ate 1.5 lbs of raw meat and fat after which we headed off to attend the family gathering.
 
Between  6pm and 9pm I ate the following:
 
6oz of 7Up,
½ dozen cheese and cracker appetizers
3 pieces of thin crust pepperoni pizza
2 large chocolate chip cookies
1 small scoop vanilla ice cream
1 large slice of watermelon
½ cantaloupe

<snip>

I am actually a bit shocked that someone who has been eating such a pristine, zero carb diet would indulge in such obviously inerior fare to such an extent.  I can't imagine, personally, doing such a thing, and I am not 100% raw nor a carnivore eating the same basic diet day in, day out.  I never consume more than the occasional dairy or legume in terms of non paleo foods.  Eating junk food all night would definitely be a zinger to the body, as you experienced (now for the second time after the cafteria escapade).  But is there any real value in such an experiment of extremities?  It is - in my mind - much like lighting a match and sticking your hand over it.  Yes, it is going to hurt.  So why do it again?

I mean absolutely no disrespect.  And I do understand that we are all in our own realms of reality.  I just cannot imagine any constructive outcomes from such a romp in junk food land, especially one paved with a ton of processed wheat foods.

[lex_rooker]

Satya,
What I did is what 99% of the "civilized" world does every day.  Ask the typical American to review what I ate at a "party" and they'd most likely think it standard fare and rather mild at that since no booze was consumed.

I had two things in mind when I did this.  First, I wanted to verify that the problem I experienced from the cafeteria food was probably caused by carbs even though I couldn't see that I was eating any.  By eating a bunch of carbs and getting the same reaction, I pretty much verified that this was the case.  The other possibility was some chemical that is common in restaurant food but not it homemade fare - like MSG or sulfite's - which can cause a similar reaction in some people.  I've now ruled out the MSG/chemical idea and can pin it on the carbs.

Second, I was warned by Mary on the Saturated Fat Forum that if I allowed my body to adapt to ketones as a primary fuel, that I'd have real problems eating the occasional high carb meal as the production of insulin and probably some important enzymes needed to handle carbs efficiently would shut down.  It appears that something of this sort actually happens and I've reported the results of this bit of extravagance to her.

I seldom take anyone's word for anything, especially when they really can't point to actual experience or a relatively unbiased study that supports their position.  This was an easy experiment to do, and in the grand scheme of things, relatively harmless, yet provided real information for real people to help them make more informed decisions on how best to live their lives.

Next up is the "all fat, all the time" experiment for Elli.  For this one it will be important to monitor BG very closely as the whole point is to see if there is any correlation between BG and meals comprised of only fat and no protein.  I'll be taking another week to allow my body to get back to normal and then start this one.  I don't expect this to have such lingering effects as the carb experiment did, but only time will tell.

Stay tuned,

Lex

[lex_rooker]

Tyler,
I've found most formal studies and ALL opinions, (including my own  ), heavily biased.  I like to think that the difference between me and the other guys is that I clearly state my bias, offer my opinions as opinions and not fact, and try to support the conclusions I draw with evidence from experiments that others can easily duplicate.

I also try to honestly report my failures as well as my successes. To portray the zero-carb lifestyle as a panacea would be dishonest. The carb loading experiment clearly shows that choosing a zero carb lifestyle has some significant trade-offs.  This is important information for someone considering such a radical change.  It has worked well for me, however, I think most people would be better served by a less radical approach like Low Carb or Very Low Carb.  They would probably get most, if not all, of the benefit, yet be able to handle the occasional carb overdose much better than I do with my commitment to zero carb.

The less radical approaches would certainly make it easier to fit into the occasion social situation and family gatherings.  Anyone who thinks this is unimportant just doesn't understand the powerful and important role that culture, community, and family play in our lives. 

Well, off my soap box and back to zero carb,

Lex

[Satya]

Well, Lex, you certainly are a brave trailblazer!  I do hope you suffer no adverse health reactions from any of your experiments.  You do our community a great service by your continued reports.  I guess as a gluten intolerant gal, I just can't imagine doing the crappy wheat products ever again. 

Oh, btw.  You mentioned that there were no preservatives or additives in the family gathering food.  Are you sure?  Was everything homemade with all-natural ingredients?  Food additives are everywhere in the SAD foods.

[boxcarguy07]

Yeah, I was about to ask the same as Satya.
I'm sure there must have been all sorts of artificial junk in what you ate the other night, like the cookies and the ice cream, unless they were all-natural. Even probably the pizza if it was frozen or delivered from a chain. How can you be sure it wasn't those that led to your problems?

[lex_rooker]

Thanks for the information I will be careful in indulging carbs but I will continue with zero carb until I reach 6 months then reevaluate.

Andrew,
I'm very pleased to see that you understand that it takes a significant amount of time for the body to fully adapt to such a major change as zero carb.  I believe that my initial adaptation took almost a full year.  During that time I continued to lose weight and ketones remained high.  Once my weight stabilized, ketones also stabilized at the Trace level give or take.  Of course my ketones are now very high again since I went high fat and it will be interesting to see what happens over the long haul.  I've only been on the high fat protocol for 3 months, and if my previous experience is any indication it could take several more months before everything fully stabilizes again.

Based on my recent "cafeteria" experience and my carb loading adventure, be prepared to face another adaptation period should you decide to add a significant amount of carbs back into your diet.  My experience shows that a small piece of fruit or a bite or two of carbs now and then is not a problem as long as there is sufficient time between these small extravagances for the body to handle the glucose infusion.  The cafeteria experience demonstrated that adding carbs everyday, even in relatively small amounts, appears to allow glucose to accumulate faster than my body could deal with it.  It took a week or so, but these daily additional carbs seemed to cause glucose to built up in the tissues to a level that caused my body to take on large amounts of fluid in an effort to dilute it.  It also appears that my body has, over time, reduced its ability to produce sufficient insulin to handle these carb infusions.  I'm now wondering if my body regulates BG only by controlling how much is created via GNG, and no longer creates insulin at all?  Wish I could think of a way to test this idea.

Anyway, bottom line here is that just as my move to zero carb had some initial uncomfortable reactions, I think I've demonstrated that the same will occur if I were now to transition back to carbs.  The body will readjust, but it will take time.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

Yeah, I was about to ask the same as Satya.
I'm sure there must have been all sorts of artificial junk in what you ate the other night, like the cookies and the ice cream, unless they were all-natural. Even probably the pizza if it was frozen or delivered from a chain. How can you be sure it wasn't those that led to your problems?

My wife and her family are first generation Greeks.  They were born and raised in a small village of about 60 families.  To this day they make or raise almost everything including their cheese, sausages, tomato paste, molasses, pasta, and bread etc.   In addition to what she makes, my wife raises her own onions, garlic, egg plants, broccoli, cabbage, cucumbers, potatoes, tomatoes (to eat fresh as well as make sauce and paste), carrots, celery, parsley, peas, several varieties of beans, as well as winter and summer squashes.  We don't have room to grow wheat, summer fruits, olive trees, or raise our own meat or I expect we'd be doing that also.

The pizza (including pepperoni, cheese, and tomato sauce), cookies, ice cream, etc were all homemade.  Some ingredients like tomatoes (for sauce), onions, garlic and the like we grew in our garden.  The meat, flour, cream, milk, chocolate, butter and sugar to make these goods were purchased, but these raw ingredients don't have anywhere near the levels of hormones, stabilizers, and preservatives that commercial pizza, ice cream and cookies have.  The dairy products we purchase are from a local dairy in Corona and they claim be be hormone and antibiotic free.  Flour products are from King Aurthur Mills and they claim to be unbleached and unbromated.

Could there be hidden chemicals that I'm unaware of?  Of course, but I think the more likely scenario is that the carbs caused the problem.  It is also highly unlikely that preservatives, stabilizers, or other such things caused the huge increase in BG that I experienced, nor, if they existed, would they be responsible for the fact that it took BG almost 24 hours to slowly decline to normal levels.  No, I think it much more likely that my body is no longer conditioned to handle a large influx of carbs - at least in the casino of life, that is where I'm placing my bet.

Lex

[TylerDurden]

Well, all I can say is that merely including any preservatives at all, tends to induce similiar problems - raw, unprocessed  carbs are nowhere near as bad for me, in effect. But then, of course, I went into this diet with adrenal burnout, so this is hardly surprising.

[boxcarguy07]

My wife and her family are first generation Greeks.  They were born and raised in a small village of about 60 families.  To this day they make or raise almost everything including their cheese, sausages, tomato paste, molasses, pasta, and bread etc.   In addition to what she makes, my wife raises her own onions, garlic, egg plants, broccoli, cabbage, cucumbers, potatoes, tomatoes (to eat fresh as well as make sauce and paste), carrots, celery, parsley, peas, several varieties of beans, as well as winter and summer squashes.  We don't have room to grow wheat, summer fruits, olive trees, or raise our own meat or I expect we'd be doing that also.

The pizza (including pepperoni, cheese, and tomato sauce), cookies, ice cream, etc were all homemade.  Some ingredients like tomatoes (for sauce), onions, garlic and the like we grew in our garden.  The meat, flour, cream, milk, chocolate, butter and sugar to make these goods were purchased, but these raw ingredients don't have anywhere near the levels of hormones, stabilizers, and preservatives that commercial pizza, ice cream and cookies have.  The dairy products we purchase are from a local dairy in Corona and they claim be be hormone and antibiotic free.  Flour products are from King Aurthur Mills and they claim to be unbleached and unbromated.

Could there be hidden chemicals that I'm unaware of?  Of course, but I think the more likely scenario is that the carbs caused the problem.  It is also highly unlikely that preservatives, stabilizers, or other such things caused the huge increase in BG that I experienced, nor, if they existed, would they be responsible for the fact that it took BG almost 24 hours to slowly decline to normal levels.  No, I think it much more likely that my body is no longer conditioned to handle a large influx of carbs - at least in the casino of life, that is where I'm placing my bet.

Lex

Wow, that is all very interesting and neat as well, about your family.
I agree, that it is most likely the carbs that caused your symptoms (and your explanation as to why makes perfect sense)
I just wanted to ask! 

[lex_rooker]

Well, all I can say is that merely including any preservatives at all, tends to induce similiar problems - raw, unprocessed  carbs are nowhere near as bad for me, in effect. But then, of course, I went into this diet with adrenal burnout, so this is hardly surprising.

Tyler,
I tend to agree with you that some people are very sensitive or even highly allergic to these things which can cause similar reactions as mine and even death.  However, though I was beginning to experinece the slow decline in health that years of eating an inappropriate diet seems to bring about, I've never had any measurable reaction to the preservatives and other chemicals that are routinely put in our processed foods.  Of course I've been away from these things for several years now, so there is a possibility that I may have developed some type of intollerance, I just don't think that in this case it is the most reasonable explaination to account for my personal experinece.

Lex

[Nicola]

The less radical approaches would certainly make it easier to fit into the occasion social situation and family gatherings.  Anyone who thinks this is unimportant just doesn't understand the powerful and important role that culture, community, and family play in our lives. 

Well, off my soap box and back to zero carb,

Lex

I would like to bring this quote of Lex in a different light (I do not agree with Charles on a few "topics" but this I do agree with!):

RE: Real life happens - And it's possible to survive

Real life? That wasn't real life. That was you giving in to an addiction that you have not shaken yet. There is so much more to life than food.

Oh, come one now. That happened well for you. That doesn't mean it would happen that way for anyone else. We're all insulin resistant to differing degress and we all have differing carb tolerances. It's possible that another person eating the same foods could gain 10 pounds. I have gained more than 2 pounds eating far less than what you did.

I'm glad you were able to return to your way of eating but this is a little much, don't you think?

Not only that, but this is about so much more than weight loss. Weight is minor compared to the other diseases of civilization. Carbs do their damage on the cellular level. It's impossible to know the effect of your binge on your cells and was therefore dangerous. The "little bit won't hurt" mentality has doomed many a dieter. Weight gain should be the last marker for health.

It's possible to be overweight and have a long healthy life. However, most of the other symptoms of metabolic syndrom are not at all as forgiving.

I realize my post came across as harsh and I take full responsiblity for that and I've apologized privately to Zyarah for the tone.

However, this was not the situation where a person is caught at an event and there is nothing to eat. She chose this particular situation and had no intention to find healthy alternatives.

For the record, I really don't have a problem with that. Some may not believe it, but it's really true. What I have a problem with is not looking at something for what it is. This was not an accidental "go off plan" type of thing or the situation where we find ourselves at a company picnic and there is nothing to eat and we're starving.

This situation was, "I knew this was coming up", "I chose to eat what was provided." It was a "real life" decision but it was not an accident. That's the part I took issue with. If I choose to eat carbohydrates then I will do just that but I will not come on here and label my choice, "life happens" because that would be inaccurate. I would call it, "I did what I wanted to do and now I'm getting back to work."

Food isn't something that just "happens" to us. We happen to food. If this is not your experience, then perhaps it should be.

No one is expecting perfection and readers of my posts know full well that I don't see things that way. In fact, I've written often that eating off plan is actually part of the plan. This is the only way for us to know that our particular plan really works. Your body will remember how good it felt when you ate healthy. When you eat unhealthy, your body lets you know and this keeps you from doing it again, simply because you don't want to go through the trouble of starting again.

As LindaSue posted, there were some healthy alternatives available there that she could have availed herself of but that was never her intent. If she would have just said, I ate what I wanted without concern for my diet because I wanted to, then I would have never commented because of course, that's her decision and her right to do that.

Just don't call it "real life happens" as if it was an unavoidable circumstance that should be excused. We have to be honest with ourselves about the choices we make and call them accordingly.

There is nothing wrong with someone choosing to eat pizza or anything else. Just don't look to justify your choice by saying "it could happen to anyone."

The other question I would like for you all to consider is the point that Con brought up and that is, what if you were sick (or at least perceived yourself to be sick)? If you were a diabetic and could only eat certain foods, would this change your opinion and your actions when eating within a group? No one has to answer this question, but it's worth it to ponder.

Should diabetics or heart patients only remain at home since they're abnormal and eat steak or can they actually be social within the societal context? Would those friends and relatives respond with contempt when the diabetic informed them they could not eat the prepared food?

I believe that if we perceive ourselves to be "normal" then the battle to manage our health is that much harder. I don't believe that I am normal, despite the way I look. It's because I feel I'm abnormal, that makes me choose what I do. This abnormality does not keep me from functioning within society or attending whatever social function I choose to.

Perception is a fair question because it is actually more likely that we will get diabetes or cancer than we will get fat. I read yesterday that 1 in 2 men will get cancer in their lifetime. Diabetics are far more likely to get cancer than non-diabetics. However, only 1 in 5 Americans are obese (my apologies to our international visitors -- I don't know your stats). As I've said many times, only the lucky ones get fat.

For myself, this rules the day and it's not about being snobbish or elite. It's about safeguarding my health and dealing with the likelihood that I'm contributing to my chances for a far worse fate than obesity.

This is the passion that I write with. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of your waistlines. I honestly don't care what any of you weigh. However, I do care that you are getting healthier and I want you to do know that our likelihood of manifesting other symptoms of the diseases of civilization is much higher than our chances of getting obese. That's the part that should make us hesitate when making the decisions concerning what we eat.

There is no right or wrong here but there is consequence and it extends beyond the scale.

I think we need to redefine the word "normal". Why is it that we "have" to have wedding cake at a wedding? I would think a bride could do whatever she wanted; after all, it is her day......What we need is to have more imagination. As our health improves I'm really looking forward to this grass-roots movement really making a change in our world. Imagine if everyone just went with the status quo. What kind of world would that be? None that I would want to live in, that's for sure. Despite my hyperinsulinemia, I feel as though I can go anywhere and do anything. In fact, I try to do just that.

Some of you speak of your "plan" as a death sentence. Because you're on "plan" you can't live. But you would agree that remaining off plan brings misery. It doesn't really matter what some people can or can't do, it really only matters what you can or can't do. If we are the ones with the issue, then it's up to us to determine how we actually live our lives.

Come on, folks. Let's use our imagination. I'm sure we can come up with better solutions than just A or B.

Maybe you should stop trying to explain and convince. I don't try to convince anyone of anything with the choices I make. I make choices for myself, not for others. Do you think I explain zero-carb to someone every day? I assure you, I do not. Most people could care less.

If your dbf's mother knew that you were diabetic and she was giving you sugar, do you think she would be happy to know that and you didn't even bother to tell her? This isn't about others, it's about you.

This situation will never improve for you unless you come to grips with the fact that this has absolutely nothing to do with other people. The battle lies inside your mind and in your body. Nowhere else. When you have a pimple, you think everyone in the world is looking at it. The truth is, people notice but it's truly not a big deal. Many people in this world of ours require accomodations. People are used to that. It's unusual to find too many people not taking medicine or some kind.

Stop thinking that everyone besides you is so "normal." It's not normal for children to be obese and have diabetes. It's not normal for people to die of cancer and heart disease. It's only normal when you eat according to the way all other sick people eat.

It is indeed abnormal to buck the trend and go against the status quo, but you'll be much the better in the long run.

This is part and parcel of the problem. Why is food such an integral part of these "special occasions?" These psychological connections are directly related to diet and the narcotic nature of sugar is directly to blame. When we go to movies, sporting events, birthdays, holidays, promotions, afterwork socials, or just because someone decided to bless the office with a pan of cupcakes, there is always an excuse to eat unhealthy food. Drug users report the same connections to their activities. They need their drugs to "wake up" in the morning.

I am glad to report that I can attend "special occasions" without regard to what food will be served. It is purely irrelevant to me. I can freely enjoy the company, the conversation, the experience of being in the place, and I have possibilities to explore with all the free time. I feel no awkwardness at not eating unhealthy food as a lemming just following the crowd.



Lex don't you feel off in your mind and body; I could not rest at night after a SAD binge! The next day I would have high suger, which would make me " (", I would not be able to eat, I would not feel right with all that weight and my digestion would be in a mess. What about all that food that the body is not used to; do you think it can digest that?

No, I like peace of mind; life is all about cleaning up and finding our path - go of track, get on track!

It's not worth it; why can't we be with out having to eat our way threw social and normal days? The sheep eat grass at Christmas and in the rain.

Nicola

[Erasmus]

Lex, I'm really glad you posted on this follow up experiment.  I was just about to ask about your insights on the whole caf ordeal. 

While I fully believe that you are correct to a point about carb adaption, I can't help but thing that another common item is salt.  Salt would account for the thirst and the fluid retention as well.  In fact probably more so as carb based fluid retention is should be in the muscle and liver due to glycogen but salt would raise all fluids. 

-E

[Daryl]

It also appears that my body has, over time, reduced its ability to produce sufficient insulin to handle these carb infusions.  I'm now wondering if my body regulates BG only by controlling how much is created via GNG, and no longer creates insulin at all?  Wish I could think of a way to test this idea.


Lex

Good evening, Lex. Fascinating experiment! About the insulin, there are simple blood tests that would tell you your insulin levels. I could be wrong, but I think the only time a person would not make any insulin would be if they were Type 1.

And yes, Mary was right, it seems! 

[lex_rooker]

Nicola,
I'm not sure what that entire post from Charles was about - not enough context, however  I'm assuming that you disagree with my statement about the power of culture, community, and family and so does Charles. 

Certainly this pressure can be overcome, however, it takes a great amount of effort and few are up to the task.  We see this fact of life play out around us everyday.  Sure, there are a few who will choose to take a nontraditional path regardless of the immense pressures around them, however, the majority will be locked into the mores of culture, community, and family.  Tradition is powerful, and people cling to it for security.  This is an important point because the idea of "security" is so seductive that most people will trade their freedom for it. This pervades all aspects of our lives and is not specific to diet.

Charles is truly unique.  He clearly doesn't follow the crowd.  He is accurate in his statement that a social gathering doesn't mean a person has to break their personal dietary rules.  The reality is that most will, because the feeling of security and belonging is a powerful basic human need, and it takes heroic efforts to break away from the accepted norm. The truth is that food IS a major part of our culture and an important aspect of almost all social gatherings. Food is one of the elements that binds together and defines a culture. I feel tremendous pressure from my wife, family, and close friends.  They are always concerned that I will embarrass them by doing something socially unacceptable like eating raw meat at a social gathering.  I'm often not invited to such events because of this. 

You may not like the fact that gravity causes everything thrown into the air to fall back to the ground and others may agree with you, however, agree or disagree, it takes an enormous amount of energy to overcome the effects of gravity.  The same is true with culture, community, and family.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

While I fully believe that you are correct to a point about carb adaption, I can't help but thing that another common item is salt.  Salt would account for the thirst and the fluid retention as well.  In fact probably more so as carb based fluid retention is should be in the muscle and liver due to glycogen but salt would raise all fluids. 

E-
I thought salt would be a major contributor to the fluid retention also, however, I eat several meals out during the first week of the month and though they are always steaks, they are often loaded with salt.  I've seen no evidence of fluid retention caused by this. My meals for the rest of the month contain only a small amount of salt and there is little difference in my weight and no evidence of edema in hands, feet, or legs during the first week as compared to the rest of the month.

My experience just doesn't support the salt theory.  Also, I believe that several on this forum have tried a "saltwater flush".  My guess is that if you ask them they will tell you that even though they drank a large amount of water containing considerable salt, their bodies did not retain any measurable additional fluid.  I won't go so far as to say that salt doesn't cause some fluid retention, but I don't see any evidence of it.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

Good evening, Lex. Fascinating experiment! About the insulin, there are simple blood tests that would tell you your insulin levels. I could be wrong, but I think the only time a person would not make any insulin would be if they were Type 1.

And yes, Mary was right, it seems! 

Daryl,
A true test for insulin levels would require blood to be drawn processed in a lab - at least I don't know of any method of testing at home.  This would be very expensive to do any comprehensive testing so I'm pretty much limited to what I can measure at home and give my best interpretation of the results from that.

Of course I have no way of knowing what is really going on in my body.  My ability to measure biological functions is very limited.  I can however, observe BG, weight, fluid retention etc under the conditions I present to it - especially when these parameters make massive changes.  In this case I loaded carbs.  I observed that BG rose dramatically and then it took many hours for it to slowly drop, all the while I was driven to drink large amounts of water, much of which I retained.

A "normal" insulin response after a carb heavy meal should drive BG down below 120 within 3 hours at most.  In fact, this is the whole basis for the "Glucose Tollerance Test".  The fact that my BG went over 200 and then took almost 24 hours to drop below 120 is a clear indication that I'd fail a Glucose Tollerance Test and the diagnosis would be that I was an insulin dependent diabetic.

Can you think of any other explaination, (other than a significantly reduce insulin response), for the rapid rise in BG after carb loading, followed by a very slow decline in BG taking many hours, while experiencing intense thirst and retaining water. 

In my case, I would expect this condition to be reversible if I were to start including carbs in my diet again.  However, I'm sure it would take several weeks if not months.

Lex

[Nicola]

E-
I thought salt would be a major contributor to the fluid retention also, however, I eat several meals out during the first week of the month and though they are always steaks, they are often loaded with salt.  I've seen no evidence of fluid retention caused by this. My meals for the rest of the month contain only a small amount of salt and there is little difference in my weight and no evidence of edema in hands, feet, or legs during the first week as compared to the rest of the month.

My experience just doesn't support the salt theory.  Also, I believe that several on this forum have tried a "saltwater flush".  My guess is that if you ask them they will tell you that even though they drank a large amount of water containing considerable salt, their bodies did not retain any measurable additional fluid.  I won't go so far as to say that salt doesn't cause some fluid retention, but I don't see any evidence of it.

Lex

I did that flush and noticed the water in my colon (that was not a nice feeling), my legs did hold on to water and it took a few days to repair this!

Now I am drinking this Himalayan sole (2 tsp in a glace of alkaline ionized water) once a day and I have notice less thirst and I think it will be doing good taking salt this way (not with a meal - letting it work threw the day on IF). This salt is a healthy salt and up to now it does not bother me.

Nicola

[Satya]

I think there are way too many variables to pinpoint the cause of the problems, notably the edema.  Erasmus brought up the possibility of salt, and there is also the possibility of gluten intolerance as a cause of this as it is a symptom of it.  There were too many funky foods eaten at one sitting to say it was just carbs.  Natural or not, Neolithic foods cause a vast array of problems not found in Paleo carb foods.  You'd have to try only fruit one day.  Only crackers another.  Only cheese another.  That is the only way to get accurate results of just what is causing what.

I disagree that food pressures are so great that we have to cave into them to be "social."  I say this as the mother of an adult on the autistic spectrum.  DS cannot eat gluten or dairy.  Doing the former will cause neurological problems; the latter will result in severe constipation.  We have absolutely no problems going to social functions and having a blast with friends or family.  I always make sure he has food to eat, and sometimes he might not get as much to eat as usual, but he will not ingest the offending foods.  It's not worth it for him to ever indulge, and he remains firm on this for his own health.  Do we have to suffer ill health to fit in?  No.  If you had celiac disease, you would probably forgo the wheat at a party.  Same with peanut allergy.  For me, I will eat any paleo foods, cooked or raw at gatherings.  But gluten and dairy in particular are bad news with my northern European ancestry.  I just don't dare eat wheat ever, though I can get away with some cheese once a month.  Some people never drink alcohol, yet they can enjoy a party just as much as those who imbibe.  So there are many instances where it is totally inappropriate to cave into eating foods we don't normally eat.  But, of course, we each make the choices we do in the skin we occupy.

[TylerDurden]

The trouble is that if we eat raw food at a gathering, our hosts will get annoyed at having to specially provide you with raw-friendly fare. Almost all such gatherings will involve foods which are highly-processed, to a large extent, and, as Lex said, cooked-food is so part of our culture that it looks rude if you sugest alternatives - let's face it, even vegetarians get looked down on for insisting on plant-food only at parties, it's only those who are highly allergic who are tolerated, in this regard.

Of course, my solution is much simpler, I just don't eat and claim to be "on a diet". That's usually considered OK.

So, I tend to agree with Lex.

[lex_rooker]

I did that flush and noticed the water in my colon (that was not a nice feeling), my legs did hold on to water and it took a few days to repair this!

I'm really surprised by this.  I've done the saltwater flush several times in the past and didn't notice any fluid retention at all.  I suppose this just highlights the fact that each of us can react differently to the same situation.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

I think there are way too many variables to pinpoint the cause of the problems, notably the edema.  Erasmus brought up the possibility of salt, and there is also the possibility of gluten intolerance as a cause of this as it is a symptom of it.  There were too many funky foods eaten at one sitting to say it was just carbs.  Natural or not, Neolithic foods cause a vast array of problems not found in Paleo carb foods.  You'd have to try only fruit one day.  Only crackers another.  Only cheese another.  That is the only way to get accurate results of just what is causing what.

Can't argue with the fact that this experiment was not closely controlled, however, I stand by my assertion that it is the carbs causing the problem.  As noted in a previous post neither salt nor any other chemical additive has given me problems in the past, and on occasion I consume a large amount of salt and it doesn't cause the symptoms I experienced from eating carbs.   I ate gluten based foods for 50 years with no sign of intolerance, and in the cafeteria escapade I could see no sign of wheat or any other grain in the food I was eating - Cheese, yes (lactose); bacon & sausage, yes (likely to contain sugar); eggs, yes (known to have some carb content) - but no grains or plant based carbs were observable.

I disagree that food pressures are so great that we have to cave into them to be "social."  I say this as the mother of an adult on the autistic spectrum.  DS cannot eat gluten or dairy.  Doing the former will cause neurological problems; the latter will result in severe constipation.  We have absolutely no problems going to social functions and having a blast with friends or family.  I always make sure he has food to eat, and sometimes he might not get as much to eat as usual, but he will not ingest the offending foods.  It's not worth it for him to ever indulge, and he remains firm on this for his own health.  Do we have to suffer ill health to fit in?  No.  If you had celiac disease, you would probably forgo the wheat at a party.  Same with peanut allergy.  For me, I will eat any paleo foods, cooked or raw at gatherings.  But gluten and dairy in particular are bad news with my northern European ancestry.  I just don't dare eat wheat ever, though I can get away with some cheese once a month.  Some people never drink alcohol, yet they can enjoy a party just as much as those who imbibe.  So there are many instances where it is totally inappropriate to cave into eating foods we don't normally eat.  But, of course, we each make the choices we do in the skin we occupy.

Can't really argue with you here either.  "Special needs" will easily override culture, community, and family. And, in fact, cause people to "rally around the cause".  In my case, I often explain that I'm severely diabetic and therefore can't eat the culturally acceptable foods.  This almost always elicits sympathy and a knowing nod, and puts me squarely in the Special Needs category as diabetes is so common these days, and everyone knows the dietary limitations imposed by diabetes.  Where I get into social problems is that eating RAW meat is not seen as a requirement in a diabetic diet.  This means that I can use my self proclaimed Special Needs status to refuse high carb foods, and this is quite acceptable, however, I must eat my raw food before going to the social function because eating raw meat is not one of the accepted special needs of a diabetic.

I also know a family that has an epileptic child and they control it with a very strict ketogenic diet (95%fat).  They take the child's food with them and, of course, this special need is greeted with sympathy and understanding.  Again, the food is "cooked" and or prepared in a socially accepted manner so even though the diet is quite restrictive, what foods are allowed are prepared in a socially acceptable way.

None of this negates the immense influence that culture, community, and family has over our lives - especially when there is no "special need" to override it.

Lex 

[Erasmus]

I agree with Lex about the social nature of foods and feeding.  I have been often labeled as "high maintenance" when I opted simply not to eat.  This was always without complaint on my part.  People always felt obligated to adjust to my "needs" even though I was VERY CLEAR that they should do no such thing. So even asking for NOTHING is a burden to a lot of people.  In fact nothing is the one thing I'm not allowed to have on my birthday here in the office.  Goofy. 

On to the carb consequences that Lex reports.  I absolutely believe everything Lex reports.  Still, I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the severity of his reactions when going off the reservation.  While there are most certainly confounding factors, it seems to me he has covered most of them to make his claim that is primarily due to what is essentially a bad diabetic reaction.  It's rather disturbing.  And his warning should listened to.  There more than a few of us out there that are VERY LOW carb, but not Lex's ZERO carb.  I wonder if we (the VLCers)  are holding on to sufficient carb processing reserve to avoid Lex's reactions.  Or at least his severity. At 8 months in, I suspect I am still too early to test that out.  But Jeff, who I believe is lurking about, has been VLC for long enough I think to make a valid test of it.  Of course the LA County fair is on right now, it would be real easy for me to a carb out just see where I stand right now, funnel cake and deep fried snickers, for science you understand.   

Lex,
  I make you an offer, just to help eliminate the salt thing completely for MY mind, my girlfriend and I would be happy to have you and your wife as our guests to dinner at Greenfields Brazilian BBQ in West Covina.  Any time that fits your dietary experiments is fine, preferably after the fair later in October or even in November.  Besides what what would be I'm sure a stimulating and informative dinner conversation, I really want to see a skinny guy put a real hurt on the "all you can eat" experience. 

Lex,
 I also think you are wrong about how long it would take adapt to carbs to avoid your symptoms.  We keto adapt at least most of the way in as little as a week.  Sure it takes quite a bit longer to FULLY adapt, but I shouldn't think full adaption would be needed to deal with the carbs adequately.  It doesn't quite make sense in a paleo world where I'm certain we would have seasonal carb ups well in advance of what you did.  In temperate climate there would be periodic fruit explosions where I'm sure we would have eaten till we popped.  It's a lot easier to hunt fruit.  Perhaps in those climates we have also supplemented hunting with various tubers and such thus keeping us ready for the seasonal sugar fest.  I don't know.   Of course there is also the BG rise that you get while on meat only.  That would make it seem that you are at least a bit in the game of processing carbs.  Lots of questions still unanswered.  I'm sure there are lots questions left unasked. 

At least for now, it seems the best course for the zerocarber is to periodically (such period, yet to be determined) have sufficient carbs to keep the metabolism ready to successfully handle the occasion social event.  Assuming of course it doesn't knock you off the wagon that is.

-E

[Satya]

The trouble is that if we eat raw food at a gathering, our hosts will get annoyed at having to specially provide you with raw-friendly fare. Almost all such gatherings will involve foods which are highly-processed, to a large extent, and, as Lex said, cooked-food is so part of our culture that it looks rude if you sugest alternatives - let's face it, even vegetarians get looked down on for insisting on plant-food only at parties, it's only those who are highly allergic who are tolerated, in this regard.

Of course, my solution is much simpler, I just don't eat and claim to be "on a diet". That's usually considered OK.

So, I tend to agree with Lex.

But Tyler, saying no to food because of your "I am on a diet" claim does not constitute caving into social pressures regarding food.  Hey, claiming religious fasting would work too.

How I handle this situation every time is to offer to bring food and drink to help out the host(ess).  Of course, it doesn't hurt that I am also gluten intolerant and claim "allergy" issues to avoid offending anyone.  And I am not afraid of some cooked meat and salads, which are usually always present unless your host is a veghead.  Perhaps I am fortunate that I have never felt pressure to eat obviously highly-processed junk food in social settings, whether they are made with organic sucanant, organic whole wheat or their conventional counterparts.  But then, everyone who knows me knows that I am independent and a bit eccentric anyway.  Lex's problems tell me that it ain't worth it to go off the wagon and pig out on foods that you are not used to consuming regularly, especially if you are a zero carber.  (IOW, I agree with Lex too.)

[TylerDurden]

But Tyler, saying no to food because of your "I am on a diet" claim does not constitute caving into social pressures regarding food.  Hey, claiming religious fasting would work too.

How I handle this situation every time is to offer to bring food and drink to help out the host(ess).  Of course, it doesn't hurt that I am also gluten intolerant and claim "allergy" issues to avoid offending anyone.  And I am not afraid of some cooked meat and salads, which are usually always present unless your host is a veghead.  Perhaps I am fortunate that I have never felt pressure to eat obviously highly-processed junk food in social settings, whether they are made with organic sucanant, organic whole wheat or their conventional counterparts.  But then, everyone who knows me knows that I am independent and a bit eccentric anyway.  Lex's problems tell me that it ain't worth it to go off the wagon and pig out on foods that you are not used to consuming regularly, especially if you are a zero carber.  (IOW, I agree with Lex too.)

Sorry, I should have made clear that I do have to eat cooked when I get visits from acquaintances, the odd Christmas party, certain special occasions etc. Other than that, I'm able to get away with sashimi restaurants or not eating. BUt one has to be careful. I could probably get away with eating a wild hare carcass in a more wacky setting like California or Hawaii(judging from reports), but here in the UK, it's not a good idea to be too eccentric, in this regard.