Lex's Journal

[lex_rooker]

To All,
Sorry taking so long to respond.  Gone for the weekend.  Had guests in from Australia and had to give them the nickel tour.  Charged them 25 cents for it so it wasn’t a total loss.

Josh,
Yup referring to the Ketostix scale. 

Negative - None
Trace – 5 mg/dl
Level_1 – 15 mg/dl Small
Level_2 _ 40 mg/dl Moderate
Level_3 _ 80 mg/dl Large
Level_4 _ 160 mg/dl Maximum utmost


King Salmon
There are so many variables that it is impossible to say what drives me, Delfuego, or anyone else for that matter.  Each of us has a different definition for the work “problems”.  This makes effective communication devilishly difficult.  We each have a picture in our heads of what we are trying to convey, but the best we can do is try to paint that picture in the reader’s head through the words we use.  Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we don’t.

KD,
I have no idea whatever about why some people do better on one thing than another.  I’m sure it is a bit of everything you mention, less junk, more nutrients, easier digestion etc.

I’m sure we get some energy from fats, protein, and carbs.  The question is what is the primary energy source used at the cellular level.  If you suddenly change your diet and start depriving the body of the primary fuel used at the cellular level then the body will go to heroic efforts to create it until it can fully adapt and efficiently use the new fuel source. (the key word here is “efficiently”) This is why massive amounts of weight are lost when one moves from a carb based diet to a fat based diet.  The body is temporarily sacrificing huge amounts of dietary as well as body fat to get at the glycerol to create glucose.  However, once the body adapts to using fatty acids more efficiently as it’s primary fuel, then weight loss stops and even reverses.   

Luck as little to do with adaptation to a new fuel source.  It just takes time.  As I’ve stated, it took the better part of a year before I felt mostly back to normal and then 18 months to 2 years before things fully settled down to a normal routine.  All the while I could see changes in my daily BG and Ketone measurements as well as major changes in my formal lab tests.  As evidenced by my current lab tests the changes are still occurring after 4-5 years, though much more slowly.

BG at the high end of the range seems to be normal for those on VLC/ZC diet.  106 would be about right a couple of hours after eating.  95-100 would be the “fasting” level 10 – 12 hours from your last meal.  Each of us is slightly different and home BG meters are not all that accurate.  If you are within 5 points or so either way, then you are well within the accuracy level of the meter.  Don’t obsess over BG if the fasting level is below 110.  Don’t obsess over BG is an hour or so after eating it rises to 120 or so.  Your home BG meter and the associated strips are lucky to be accurate to +- 20 points.  Just take sequential readings from the same blood sample and you’ll often see 10 points or more difference.  These meters are wonderful for telling you when you are in trouble (BG above 200), they are not so good as a laboratory standard.

Some of this boils down to expectations.  When you started this adventure what were you looking for, and were your expectations reasonable?  Much of how you feel is based on how you think.  We can go from bored to excited in a heartbeat.  The truth is, this isn’t what I’m looking for.  When my body is working well I don’t notice it at all and I’m totally able to focus on the activity I’m doing.  When there is a “real” problem, then my attention is diverted away from what I’m doing and focuses on the pain or discomfort.

When I don’t notice my body, my breathing, my heartbeat, my stomach, my bowels, my joints, my head, or any other part, then I’m probably doing just fine.  This is different than having some ‘expectation’ and then constantly analyzing micro feelings to see if these expectations are being met.  It’s all about living life and doing things rather than focusing on how I feel from moment to moment.

On the Calorie Restriction Posts:
Great discussion.  I gave it a shot and read all of Walfords work but just couldn’t do it.  I was cold all the time – I mean freezing.  Needed a sweater in the summer.  Totally lost my libido.  I think the observation that we must “train” the body to get along on calorie restriction, then it probably isn’t something I want to do.  In paleo times if we were calorie restricted it was due to lack of available food, not choice.

Lex

[King Salmon]

Lex,some info I saw on Wikipedia in regards to Ketogenic diet and kidney stones:

 Long-term use of the ketogenic diet in children increases the risk of retarded growth, bone fractures, and kidney stones. Supplements are necessary to counter the dietary deficiency of many micronutrients.[4]

About 1 in 20 children on the ketogenic diet will develop kidney stones (compared with one in several thousand for the general population). A class of anticonvulsants known as carbonic anhydrase inhibitors (topiramate, zonisamide) are known to increase the risk of kidney stones, but the combination of these anticonvulsants and the ketogenic diet does not appear to elevate the risk above that of the diet alone.[35] The stones are treatable and do not justify discontinuation of the diet.[35] Johns Hopkins Hospital now gives oral potassium citrate supplements to all ketogenic diet patients, resulting in a sevenfold decrease in the incidence of kidney stones.[36] However, this empiric usage has not been tested in a prospective controlled trial.[7] Kidney stone formation (nephrolithiasis) is associated with the diet for four reasons:[35]

Excess calcium in the urine (hypercalciuria) occurs due to increased bone demineralisation with acidosis. Bones are mainly composed of calcium phosphate. The phosphate reacts with the acid, and the calcium is excreted by the kidneys.[35]
Hypocitraturia: the urine has an abnormally low concentration of citrate, which normally helps to dissolve free calcium.[35]
The urine has a low pH, which stops uric acid from dissolving, leading to crystals that act as a nidus for calcium stone formation.[35]
Many institutions traditionally restricted the water intake of patients on the diet to 80% of normal daily needs;[35] this practice is no longer encouraged.[4]  Thoughts?

[alphagruis]

But when the temperature of the environment is lower, one needs MORE calories (or a higher proportion of protein) to maintain body temperature?

Yes but there are other effects that might well offset this. I don't remember precisely what they are but you could find out by reading Walfords books or works.

This is an article that (tries to?) debunk calorie restriction. What do you think about this?

http://www.livescience.com/health/090127-bad-calorie-restriction.html

Well, mice are the species that has been most tinkered on by genetic engineering and so one should not wonder that specific strains are not responsive to CR (in terms of longevity but there are other health parameters). Please read the original abstract and cautious wording

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/jn.108.100313v1

and compare with the comments of the so-called "debunker".

There is also this article which discusses possible reasons why that specific strain of mice did not respond:

Mechanisms of Ageing and Development
Volume 131, Issue 2, February 2010, Pages 111-118

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ibes/speakman/pdf_docs/319.pdf

  As compared to this exception the litterature supporting the CR paradigm is overwhelming and undisputable. And unlike the debunker's claims it is not a theory, the mechanisms at work are not claimed to be seriously identified, it's just a fact by now.

Yet as Lex points out CR on a more or less standard western diet is probably very difficult to follow by willful humans and bad nutrition and related deficiencies are major risks. I never tried it and probably were unable to do it. But in my case raw paleo led after many years spontaneously to a de facto CR without any suffering or frustration. I estimate my CR to be in the modest 10-15% range when compared to the 2150 cal I'm expected to need according to my age, body size, sex, activity etc...
It's however a mean value because there are days I eat more or less depending on my activities. I believe also that some kind of intermittent fasting was the rule rather than the exception during paleotimes.    

[KD]

Some of this boils down to expectations.  When you started this adventure what were you looking for, and were your expectations reasonable?  Much of how you feel is based on how you think.  We can go from bored to excited in a heartbeat.  The truth is, this isn’t what I’m looking for.  When my body is working well I don’t notice it at all and I’m totally able to focus on the activity I’m doing.  When there is a “real” problem, then my attention is diverted away from what I’m doing and focuses on the pain or discomfort.

Lex,

Thanks again for the thorough responses. Both BG readings were the results of lab tests. Never had any home systems. I was examining some of the options for readers and ketostix and such recently and seemed to intuitively agree that - that kind of micromanaging wouldn't be the best thing for me.

I guess my main curiosity in analyzing others on a spectrum of LC or just plain paleo diets (raw or cooked) and how they 'get' energy is the thought that there might be diets better suited for a variety of goals. I guess this is an obvious statement. But I'm generally not the type to want to do the 'absolute most' if alternatives have their own progression and success. I don't do a VLC diet because all the theories make the most sence per se, but that when I add carbs to this system things do not work out. For me this goes beyond energy lows or fat gain or other such things but some kind of internal battle of sorts that seems to be deteroriating or at least non productive. Of course there are theories as to how to 'fix' this situation, one being the VLC approach itself, and others arguing that approach is non-productive or could be modifyfied by other methods, supplements, therapies etc...

I guess many VLC or ZC folks don't really have specific goals about eating carbs in the future, I'd probably say its one of my few other than just feeling well and avoiding acute symptoms.

On the positive, I have the little things here and there but for the most part things are pretty easy breezy these days. I guess if I've survived many months of the :high end of crap: to the now :med -> high end of normal: I wonder where I place in that 18 mo. scale. but that sounds like something to be optimistic about, as I'd rather not go through my umpeenth weightloss/wait-out period on raw. Ironically or not, at certain moments feeling well and in the moment usually makes me not appreciate all that these decisions have brought me but in my new found health ponder about going out and getting a beer or a cooked meal with nice girl sometime OR experimenting with Lyle's program or other such things.

hmm.hopefully some of this is relevant to others than myself...

[lex_rooker]

King Salmon,
I’m aware of  the ketogenic diet studies and have discussed them in this journal as well.  This is also why I had a DEXA SCAN to see if my diet might be causing havoc with my bones.  Came through the scan with flying colors.  The scan was also analyzed by Kurt Harris on his PaNu blog.  Kurt is a radiologist of some renown and I was nice of him to take the time to review my tests.  You can find his comments on his blog.

Will have another DEXA SCAN next year to monitor changes.  I think my insurance will only pay for them every 2 years unless a problem is detected.

KD,
I don’t spend much time analyzing other people.  They have different goals, and I also find that most people say one thing and do another – often without realizing it.  Or rationalize their behavior to fit what they wish to believe.  One person came to me and said that ZC wasn’t working for them.  It took a bit of time and prying but I finally discovered that they were eating a pint of ice cream every evening.  They rationalized that ice cream is very high in fat and that offsets any carbs that might be in it.  

The words we use are also very misleading or ill defined.  I’ve said that I eat a hand full of cherries on occasion as I love them.  How big is a handful and how often is occasionally?  For me a handful is about 1 cup and occasionally is twice a year.  For others it might be a pint and once a week.  Still others will tell you it’s one cup a couple of times per year but actually eat a pint or more every day while cherries are in season as they wish to keep up appearances.  We have no way of knowing.

Bottom line: Be a bit skeptical of everything you read.  None of what we are doing is in a laboratory or overseen by some official process to assure compliance, and few will post regular lab tests to support their claims.

I do what I do for me and the life I wish to lead.  I try to post details to provide as much clarity as possible.  I also post my ongoing results.  I post the good and the bad as I have no specific belief, diet, or protocol to protect.  If what I’m doing starts causing problems or no longer meets my needs I’ll change in a heartbeat.  I do what I do, not because I believe it is the only true and correct path, I do it because it allows me to feel well enough to do the things I want to do.  For me, diet is a means to an end, not the goal in itself.

I also try to keep my expectations reasonable.  I’ll be 60 in January.  Age alone has reduced my physical performance.  I can no longer run 10 miles every other day at a 6:30 pace or the 100 yard dash in 11+ seconds.  Injuries take weeks instead of days to heal.  Tissues aren’t as flexible as they were when I was 20 and straining a joint and tendons is far more likely now than 30 or 40 years ago.  Our physical performance will degrade as we age regardless of what we eat.   The best I can do is live a lifestyle that leverages whatever capacity I have to the highest possible level.  This also includes my mental state.  If I’m depressed or bored, then my physical state is a mute point as I won’t do anything anyway.  So far what I’m doing is meeting my needs and I really spend very little time thinking about it.

Lex

[Hanna]

I estimate my CR to be in the modest 10-15% range when compared to the 2150 cal I'm expected to need according to my age, body size, sex, activity etc...
  

And how much meat do you eat, if you try to estimate? I feel so much better if I eat as much meat (including fish etc.) as possible; I think that I still don´t eat sufficient meat.

[alphagruis]

And how much meat do you eat, if you try to estimate? I feel so much better if I eat as much meat (including fish etc.) as possible; I think that I still don´t eat sufficient meat.

Well, Hanna, some details here. http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/common-criticisms-directed-at-paleo-diet-proponents/msg24080/#msg24080

 My diet is actually very flexible depending on season.

[Hanna]

Hi Alpha,
Roughly estimated, how many gramms are these 70-80% meat?
Do you eat just the meat, even if it is lean, or do you add extra fat?
Do you prefer your meat (how long?) aged? Do you grind it (or season or the like)?

Since you eat so much meat, you probably don´t need any tropical food? If I eat much fatty fish, I am entirely satisfied and euphorically happy.  Especially mackerel can be very fatty, it can contain up to 35% fat in the autumn.

[alphagruis]

Hanna,

It's not 70% meat but food of animal origin ( as fish, shellfish (scallops, shrimps and crabs my favorites), eggs etc) and on average. If it's fatty meat such as boar or lamb it corresponds to about 100g muscle and 150g fat or so but again this is an average that came out from an estimation during 2008-2009 by means of the CR software CRON-o-meter. I however rarely eat much more lean meat or muscle at once.

I don't grind meat, no do I season it but not because I think it's better in any respect , simply because it's simpler and less time consuming. I've got more interesting things to do. I occasionally mix fat from one animal with muscle from another without any problem.

I eat the stuff at all ageing states from fresh to several months except beef because the muscle becomes rapidly stone hard in the fairly dry atmosphere I age it.

 I don't need any tropical fruit of course though I appreciate them occasionally. But I eat a substantial amount of fruit mostly of local origin and during season.

[Alan]

I think I've read as much KGH-thought as anyone else.  My read of his reasons for consuming that amount of carbs is:

1.  He damn well enjoys them. As in, dark chocolate.

2.  He believes that paleolithic eating is 95% about what poisons must be avoided.  In his intro to his 12 recommended steps, he outright states that the first 2, just by themselves, cover 80% of the benefit.


3. Charles would say that KGH has un-resolved dietary addictions.   I say that Charles has an un-resolved addiction to running half-marathons.

[lex_rooker]

Alan,
We each are highly biased.  It is our nature to go to great lengths to rationalize reality when it doesn’t support our biases and beliefs.  I should know, I spent 20+ years trying to convince myself (and anyone who would listen) that the vegan lifestyle was the true way, even though the evidence was clear that it was not meeting my needs (gum disease, high blood pressure, rising blood sugar, migraine headaches, etc).

The truth is that I don’t know if my current ZC approach is good or bad, only that it seems to be working well for me at this time.  There have been a few problems as evidenced by my bout with kidney stones, and I’ve tried to report both the good and the bad as objectively as possible and let others draw their own conclusions.

I no longer try to convince myself or others that what I’m doing is correct.  I’m now far more concerned about actual results, and I’ll change what I’m doing in a heartbeat if there is evidence that my current course needs correction.

Yes, I still have my biases and beliefs like everyone else, but I do my best not to let them cloud my judgment or reporting.  I also try to make it very clear when I’m reporting what I believe to be objective facts as opposed to my opinion.

Lex 

[brwr]

I am on page 40 of this thread.  I have tried to open your manual on pemmican and get a blank page.  Any suggestions on how to download the manual?  Have you discussed how to eat what you a eating, but with it cooked?  I aim to start with cooked food and slowly introduce raw.  I am on a low carb diet, but have trouble getting enough fat, so I eat too much protein.  When we make meat loaf most of the fat is in the pan.  I am looking for suggestions on how to eat this fat.

I too, have been down may roads in the diet world, and have read most of the books you have referenced and have come to a similar conclusion.  At 69 years old I am in OK health, but wish to be all I can be.

Thank you for being you and sharing yourself.  A quote of mine that "There is no predicting how long it may take for the obvious to become apparent", seems to apply to the world of diet experts.

[djr_81]

I am on page 40 of this thread.  I have tried to open your manual on pemmican and get a blank page.  Any suggestions on how to download the manual? 

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/display-your-culinary-creations/lex%27s-$10-beef-jerky-maker-and-recipes/
 

[lex_rooker]

Hi Bob,

My Jerky and Pemmican manuals are no longer hosted on this forum.  You can find them here:  

http://www.traditionaltx.us/recipes.htm

Love the quote – think I’ll steal it if it is OK with you.  Another bit of wisdom I’m partial too is that it is human nature to complicate things, but it is in the ability to simplify that true genius resides.

I’m no genius.  I hate to admit how much pleasure I took in creating complex dietary rules and calculating “complete” proteins from vegetable sources.  I was never without my scientific calculator and smug in the knowledge that I was on the cutting edge of dietary evolution.   Unfortunately, all that brilliant and complicated analysis ruined my health.

Today I don’t use a calculator unless I’m doing an experiment.  Everything has been reduced to as simple as possible.  I eat once per day and I eat the same thing every day (grass fed ground meat, grass fed pet food to get a variety of organ meats, and a good measure of fat).  I really have nothing against cooked food and have chosen to eat mostly raw only because it seems to make sense to me as no other animal cooks its food – it’s a personal choice, not a religious issue.  It also simplifies preparation.  My added fat is cooked as I render it for storage.  This allows me to store 150 - 200 lbs of fat in 5 gal buckets without refrigeration and I only have to spend 1 day per year rendering.  Everything else is raw.  When ready to eat I just melt the fat and stir it into my ground meat mixture.   I used to eat raw fat but storing it and then grinding and adding to my food mixture took a lot of time and freezer space.  I live in the modern world and so added the bit of technology (rendering) for convenience.  I’m sure there will be howls of protest that rendering is somehow going to kill me, but my goal isn’t to live long, it is to live well.  I consider raw meat mixed with rendered fat an acceptable compromise and figure it is far better than Big Mac’s, Twinkies, French Fries, and soft drinks which seems to be the dietary standard of the day.

When eating out I always order rib eye steaks extra rare (blu) with a side of melted butter.  I cut off a bit of steak, dip it in the butter and chow down.  At first eating this much fat was difficult as I would gag on it.  Years as a vegetarian had made me fat averse and it took a couple of years to fully get over it.  Now I crave fat and have no problem eating it alone.  If I want more fat than I was able to eat as part of my meal, I’ll just melt what I want and drink it.  I’ve also been known to melt a ½ lb of fat and put some diced meat in it and then eat it with a spoon like soup.  You might try this with bacon.  Dice ¼ to ½ lb of bacon very fine, fry it until it is done the way you like it, then put the bacon and the melted fat into a small bowl and eat the whole think like soup. You might try cracking an egg into it just before you take it off the stove and stir until you have it scrambled for a little variety of texture, but the whole thing should be swimming in fat.

As for meatloaf, I’d just cut the meatloaf and then spoon the melted fat over it and chow down.  I like mine drenched in fat so I’d probably add more melted butter or rendered fat as well.

Eat cooked or eat raw, it is up to you.  As you progress your tastes will change and you may well find that fancy recipes and cooking are unnecessary complications that you no longer need.

Hope this helps,

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

"it is human nature to complicate things, but it is in the ability to simplify that true genius resides."

Did you coin that, Lex, or did someone else?

[lex_rooker]

"it is human nature to complicate things, but it is in the ability to simplify that true genius resides."

Did you coin that, Lex, or did someone else?

I came up with that about 15 years ago and would like to think it is original, but since there is very little new under the sun I expect that others have come up with something very similar - probably many times.  There are a lot of people a lot smarter than I am out there....

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

I came up with that about 15 years ago and would like to think it is original, but since there is very little new under the sun I expect that others have come up with something very similar - probably many times.

I Googled it and couldn't find anything similar; surprising, given that it is so good. I agree with it, so the key part goes in my signature. I had to hack down poor Nassim Taleb's quote to fit it.

 There are a lot of people a lot smarter than I am out there....

Lex

Just six. I checked.

[brwr]

Feel free to use the quote.  I came up with it when I was a design engineer.  I seemed to has a flair for the obvious, but I could never predicate how long it would take for the system (organization) to see.  To many toes that felt stepped on.

[lex_rooker]

Feel free to use the quote.  I came up with it when I was a design engineer.  I seemed to has a flair for the obvious, but I could never predicate how long it would take for the system (organization) to see.  To many toes that felt stepped on.

My corporate experience was similar, but it seems that polititians have taken things to the extreme.  They shout the obvious one day and then deny it exists the next.  At least when the corporate big wigs finally acknowledged something they dealt with it like grown ups.

Lex

[brwr]

I am up to page 78 in your blog, reading about the amount of water people drink.  Just want to let you know that I had serious problems with several kidney stones when I was 19 years old.  The Dr. said drink a gallon of water every day, no matter what.  I have been doing that for over 50 years now and so far no more kidney stones.  I would feel a spasm/pain coming on and would lay down because I would pass out from the pain.  After 50 years I still shutter when I think of the pain.  I pee every hour or so during the day and 3 or so times a night.  A real hassle, but nothing compared to the horror of KSs.

[lex_rooker]

Bob,
Yup, I think the key to kidney stones is fluid intake.  I'm probably drinking close to a gallon of water per day and haven't had another attack either.  I agree with you that the extra trips to the bathroom are well worth it considering the alternative.  Someone who hasn't experienced the pain for themselves has no idea just how intense it is.  Once you've felt it, you'll never forget it, and will do anything to avoid it ever happening again.

Lex

[Stephanie07]

Water is really important for our body as much a possible we should drink more than 8 glasses of water a day, especially during hot weather.

[TylerDurden]

Water is really important for our body as much a possible we should drink more than 8 glasses of water a day, especially during hot weather.

I disagree. I can get by on much less, without issues.

[goodsamaritan]

Water is really important for our body as much a possible we should drink more than 8 glasses of water a day, especially during hot weather.

I disagree. I can get by on much less, without issues.

This Stephanie07 is a spammer who just wants to sell Krill Oil.  It is not on raw paleo diet.  It just makes comments on various posts to sell Krill Oil. 

Sorry for the trouble Lex, this spammer will be taken cared off soon enough.

[lex_rooker]

Hi GS,
The spammer doesn’t really seem to be an issue in this case.  Her comment was valid as was Tyler’s response.  Just glad you Admins and Moderators are there to keep things from getting out of hand.

As for water, I suppose there are many variables at work.  In my case, I found I really didn’t want much water and seemed to be doing quite nicely thank you… that is, until the kidney stones struck.  I must admit that this rocked my world a bit.

In researching the issue, the only common denominator that I could find was low fluid intake, as people on all sorts of dietary protocols seemed to suffer the affliction.  In the three cases of which I’m intimately familiar, (me, my dad, and my son-in-law), all eat completely different diets, but all had very reduced fluid intake (on another note, son-in-law eats lots of fruits and suffers from bouts of gout as well).

My very low carb intake may be a contributing factor as well since there is some evidence of higher incidents of kidney stones in those on the very high ketogenic diet used to control epilepsy.  However, fluid intake is often controlled in these diets as well, so the combination of the two, (low carb and low fluid intake), may be the one-two punch that puts you down for the count.

As I’ve posted in the past, I’ve kept my diet the same with the exception of increased water intake to 3-4 liters per day and so far the kidney stones have not reoccurred.  Doesn’t mean they aren’t lurking, ready to create havoc some time in the future, but I have my fingers crossed that the increased fluid intake will keep them at bay.

Lex