Lex's Journal

[lex_rooker]

I posted those articles because they are at odds with your and others' experiences with meat eating. Because I wanted to know if you had any explanation for why that might be...I'm confused. Maybe there is an alternative explanation for why BG increases following protein intake, maybe something else is making it go up but the simple and most obvious explanation is...protein!

Kristelle,
I notice from your posts that you mention monitoring ketones, but don't remember seeing any comments regarding your BG levels.  Do you routinely measure your blood glucose levels?

Lex

[Kristelle]

No, I don't measure my BG levels. Just ketones.

[lex_rooker]

Kristelle,
BG meters are very inexpensive - often free.  The test strips are not free but for a few dollars you could test the rise in BG from protein yourself.  You could easily settle the question for youself with your own personal observations rather than agonizing over all the conflicting information on the subject.

I've never claimed to know what's going on in my body, however, I have my own personal experience and BG measurements to support the observations that I've reported.  To me it doesn't matter how many studies you reference that claim this rise in BG doesn't happen.  My own measurements show it does - at least under the conditions that my measurements were made.  Remember, I eat no carbs.  Most of the studies you referenced had the participants consuming at least 40% of calories from carbs.  My conditions are significantly different from the studies and therefore it may be comparing apples to oranges, and this could easily account for the significant difference in results.

In your own case, it matters what happens under YOUR dietary conditions - not the conditions of some 3rd party study (unless you precisely follow the dietary rules of that study).  The only meaningful information for you is to make your own measurements and then document your findings AND the conditions underwhich you made the measurements.

Lex 

[Kristelle]

I agree Lex. If I end up measuring my BG levels, I will be sure to report back.

[Jeff]

But Jeff, who I believe is lurking about, has been VLC for long enough I think to make a valid test of it.

E., how did you know I've been lurking about?   Indeed, I have been.

[Jeff]

I went back and checked what Taubes actually said and it wasn't that high fat would not cause weight gain, but that a lack of Alpha Glycerol Phosphate (a primary source of which is the metabolism of BG in the presence of insulin) would interfere with the ability to create triglycerides which are required to transport and store body fat and therefore weight gain would not occur.

If the dietary fat itself contained Alpha Glycerol Phosphate, then the body could use it to create the triglycerides necessary to transport and store body fat and you could gain weight.  It may also be that the digestive process is not an efficient way for AGP to enter the system so the weight gain only seems to occur when very large amounts of fat are consumed.  Another interesting idea is that Alpha Glycerol Phosphate would only be present in animal fat and not in plant based fats.  I know of several people who consume a large percentage of their diets as plant oils and fats and do not gain weight, however they don't seem to maintain robust health without added carbs in their diet either.

Hi Lex.  I believe Taubes also said that the AGP came from glucose metabolism inside the fat cell.  It will not be transported there.  Triglycerides cannot be stored as body fat......they are too large to pass through the adipose cell wall.  Fatty acids may well enter the fat cell, but if there is no AGP inside the fat cell, triglycerides cannot be formed and the fatty acids will be released back into the bloodstream.

Both you and Kristelle have reported gaining weight on zero carb, very high fat.  So if Taubes is correct, you must be creating glucose and this glucose must be finding it's way into the fat cell.  As you know, I have personally eaten a very high fat diet with 1000 extra calories per day and did not gain weight.  So apparently glucose was not getting into my fat cells.  So the question is, why is this different for me than it is for you and Kristelle?

[Erasmus]

E., how did you know I've been lurking about?   Indeed, I have been.

Because this is WAY too interesting and informative a thread for you let go by.

OK, actually I just lost track of all places I keep seeing you and assumed you were here too. 

-E

[Jeff]

Because this is WAY too interesting and informative a thread for you let go by.

OK, actually I just lost track of all places I keep seeing you and assumed you were here too. 

-E

Yeah, I'm everywhere!

[lex_rooker]

Hi Jeff!  You're welcome to lurk here any time.

Taubes states on page 387 of GCBC That.....

"Some triglycerides in our fat tissue come from the fat in our diet.  The rest come from carbohydrates, from a process known as de novo lipogenesis, Latin for 'the new createion of fat'"

He goes on to state that lipogenesis can take place in the liver or the fat tissue itself, and that Glycerol Phosphate must be present to bind the fatty acids into a triglyceride or they can't be stored.  Fat is also stored in the form of triglycerides in the fat cells and not as free fatty acids.

Most of Taubes' illustrations are based on glucose metabolism in support of his point that carbs are the main contributor to excess body fat, however, he makes it clear that dietary animal fat is in the form of triglycerides so by consuming it we provide a source for Glycerol Phosphate that is not directly related to glucose metabolism.

This would lead me to conclude that it is possible to gain weight if the diet is extremely high in fat for an extended period of time which is exactly what I experienced.  There is also evidence from epileptic children put on an extremely high fat diet, (85% to 95% calories as fat), that research has found that this extreme level of fat is necessary for the children to continue normal weight gain.

My experience was that weight gain was slow.  It took several weeks before I noticed it.  I also found that cutting dietary fat back down to my original 65% range caused weight to start dropping again.  Activity levels also played a significant role.  As I increased my exercise, (jogging), it took higher dietary fat levels to maintain the increased weight.

Another clue in Taubes book is that apparently AGP can be burned directly as fuel in some cells.  It may be that it is the AGP in the dietary fat that is providing the mechanism to add body fat, but since AGP is also a primary fuel source, it must exceed some threshhold before there is a sufficient surplus to allow the formation of additional adipose tissue.  This would explain why I didn't gain weight when fat was 65% of calories, but did gain weight when fat was increased to over 80% of calories. 

If AGP can be directly used as fuel it would also explain why weight started to fall when a very modest amount of exercise was added.  It wasn't because there was a dramatic increase in burning calories, but rather the specific burning of excess AGP released from dietary fat, making it unavailable to contribute to creating new, or maintaining existing, body fat.  If there is any truth to this idea then it supports the "calories don't count" theory.

Of course all of this is just speculation, but the pieces do seem to fit - at least within the boundaries of my limited level of knowledge.  Any thoughts on my mental meanderings? 

Lex

[xylothrill]

Actually very well (considering that I detest jogging).  I took a litttle over a week off, felt guilty, and when I went back out it was very easy.  I think a big part of it was that my knees and ankels got a good rest.

Lex,

Just catching up here. This has been my experience as well but don't know whether to attribute it to high fat, zero carb, or raw paleo in general. At any rate I've experience a huge difference in maintaining fitness after going long periods of laziness, especially re cardio.

I really like not having to eat a lot but I'm really thinking about lowering my fat intake to see if I lose more weight. My suet eating has become such a habit now. It's like chewing gum now. I'll miss it and will be hard to break.

You mentioned that it's still a struggle sometimes to eat even your reduced amount of high-fat meals. When you're done, you might want to try a spell of eating only till sated and see if you feel as good as you did on lower fat. That would answer the question if it's just too much food that is keeping you from feeling as good as you were on your previous diet.

Craig

[xylothrill]

E., how did you know I've been lurking about?   Indeed, I have been.

Hi Jeff,

And a welcome lurker you are.

Craig

[lex_rooker]

You mentioned that it's still a struggle sometimes to eat even your reduced amount of high-fat meals. When you're done, you might want to try a spell of eating only till sated and see if you feel as good as you did on lower fat. That would answer the question if it's just too much food that is keeping you from feeling as good as you were on your previous diet.

Hi Craig!  Glad you're back, I missed you.  You kinda dropped out of sight and I got a bit worried.  Satya and Tyler said you were fine, just very busy.

I've tried eating just until satisfied and that is usually around 400g of food.  Then I often get hungry within 4 to 6 hours and have to eat again and an additional 200g to 250g fills me up and I'm good to go until the next day.  Unfortunately, doing this doesn't add that missing "spark".  I just seem to have both a mental and physical edge when fat is between 60% and 70% of calories that is missing when fat is 80% or more of calories.

I'm really looking forward to the end of this month when I will transition back to my old protocol. 

Lex   

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff,

And a welcome lurker you are.

Craig

Hi, Craig.  It's great to be here.

[lex_rooker]

After a short layoff from jogging a few weeks ago I was dreading my next session, but knew that I had to get back to it.  What surprised me was how easy it was.  I even improved my time slightly (about 1 min per mile) and felt great for the entire 4 miles. 

The bloom was off the rose 2 days later when I went out again.  This time I started out great but within a little more than a mile I felt like I was slogging though quicksand.  The same thing happened again 2 days after that.  This got me to wondering why I felt so good after almost a week off, but was dragging when jogging consistently every 2 days.

I decided to try varying the time between jogs to see if that made any significant difference.  Here's what I discovered.

• Jogging every day is really difficult.  I can do it, but my legs feel like they're filled with lead and I certainly don't look forward to the experience.  Distance does make a significant difference.  A mile or so is not too bad, but anything futher is tough.  Doing 4 miles every day increases my time to about 14 min per mile and even then I have to drag myself across the finish line.  Stride length is very short and even though I'm "jogging", it is not much faster than a brisk walk.
• Jogging every other day is better.  I can go about 2 miles before my legs start to feel heavy.  My time per mile improves to around 11 min per mile, and though I don't carry a watch, it is pretty clear that the first couple of miles are done at a much faster pace than the last 2 miles.  Stride length starts out pretty good, but I'm back to the short choppy jog after the 2nd mile.
• Jogging every three days is a major improvement.  I usually complete the entire 4 miles with ease.  My time per mile improves to about 9 min per mile.  Stride length stays fairly consistent throughout the entire 4 miles and I can even give a bit of a burst of speed for the last quarter mile. 

It seems that it does take time for my body to recover.  I'm sure that some of this has to do with my age - especially in the area of sore knees and ankles.  The longer between jogging sessions the less pain I experience to the point that jogging every 3rd day is quite comfortable.

There does seem to be some sort of storage of energy as well.  When the period between jogging sessions is 3 days or longer, I have much more energy as evidenced by my more consistent stride length and much improved time.  This energy storage may also have an age element to it.  I'm sure that a younger person processes and stores energy much more efficiently than someone my age.  Recovery time would be much less for someone in their 20s or 30s compared to me in my mid to late 50s, but my guess is that regardless of age, some energy recovery period would be required.

I don't remember having this extended energy recovery requirement when eating a high carbohydrate diet.  Of course I was much younger then (early 30s), but I could easily run 10 miles every other day at the brisk clip of 6:30 to 7:00 per mile.  I was also riding my bicycle 23 miles each way to work and back every day for a round trip of almost 50 miles per day in addition to running.  During this time it was not unusual for me to drink over 1 gallon of soft drinks every day - usually in the late after noon after getting home from work and/or completing my 10 mile run.  The soft drinks alone would have provided a huge carbohydrate load.

My experience at this point seems to support the idea that eating an all meat diet extends the energy recovery period between work sessions as compared to eating a diet high in carbohydrates.  There was a recovery period when eating carbs as well - just much shorter, and of course I was much younger so who knows for sure.  I have no idea if dietary fat levels play any significant role in this and I'll be doing this same test again after I've transitioned back to a lower fat protocol in a couple of weeks.

Have any of you younger folks who have transitioned to mostly meat found that your recover period between intense periods of activity has been affected by your dietary change? 

Lex

Lex

[Sully]

Find a Field of grass. Always jog on grass when going for more than a mile and especially every day.
Our ancestors always have the answers. The reason why the could walk and run around bare footed is because they were on grass, mud etc. If they were on cement they would have had knee problems for sure. Even if you have really cushioned shoes, jog on grass. Its fine to walk on cement with cushioned shoes. i walked every where bar foot once even on cement. I developed knee pains. i went back to my shoes and healed quickly. When walking places I try to walk on grass as much as possible, even though my shoes are well cushioned.

[William]

Lex, I am much older than you, and never did jog, and have a supposedly deadly form of heart arrhythmia. I get the same feeling of legs full of lead when I do too much physical activity (and it takes very little), then it's usually followed by a bout of heart arrhythmia.

Experience of those who run the Boston marathon is that they must drink water full of electrolytes, I add dried seawater to my drinking water first for this (Celtic salt) and avoid the heavy clumsy leg feeling and heart problem.

See Angelo's posts on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group, he does extreme sport - European style bicycle in Italy, and he finds it necessary to do carb loading to maintain his endurance.

Clearly, we are running out of some nutrient, probably magnesium and potassium from the experience of those who have heart rhythm disturbances, and I bet this is a message from the heart for you too, except you don't get the heart palpitations.

The mystery is why we have reduced stores of minerals and/or energy, and what to do about it.

[Erasmus]

Have any of you younger folks who have transitioned to mostly meat found that your recover period between intense periods of activity has been affected by your dietary change? 

I have no personal experience to add here. But it seems you could test this out very easily by using the much advertised glycogen reloading window and having a "sports drink".  I would think that a single test would be enough to know based on your rather dramatic decline in jogging ability, assuming it is due to "fuel" that is.

Charles over at Jimmy Moore's forum doesn't seem to have your issue though.  He eats the same as you except that he cooks it.  He is, I think, a good 10 to 15 years younger than you.  He runs half-marathons.  I'm not a member over there so I can't post, but I'm sure there are more than few that read this thread that CAN post your question over there to get his response.  Maybe even that Jeff guy who is everywhere. 

-E

[xylothrill]

I haven't found a difference in recovery period - just that I can go much longer between workouts without loosing my level of fitness. On SAD, if I went a week without jogging, I could feel the loss of conditioning. Now, I can go longer than two weeks and come right back to where I left off. I can run everyday and feel like I can go on indefinitely but usually only do cardio for about an hour. I always feel like I have more energy afterwards.

Craig

[wodgina]

Hey Lex

I'm starting to get fitter but I have been struggling with recovery especially after a hard training session (above anaerobic threshold). If I try and repeat my performance within the next two days I just do not have 'the legs' and I'm 30 yrs. I think your 3 days recovery time could be accurate.

I will start to train aerobically and see if there is a difference in recovery time.

Sully, most barefoot runners prefer concrete and bitumen, including myself. Once you  run correctly without heel strike there is not much strain on the body and actually helps my leg problems. My running shoes have no cushioning and zero arch support.

[xylothrill]

I struggled with anaerobic lifting in the beginning quite a bit but it's worked itself out and I don't get as sore as easily - except for my lower back but I believe that is related to previous injuries.

Craig

[Jeff]

I have no personal experience to add here. But it seems you could test this out very easily by using the much advertised glycogen reloading window and having a "sports drink".  I would think that a single test would be enough to know based on your rather dramatic decline in jogging ability, assuming it is due to "fuel" that is.

Charles over at Jimmy Moore's forum doesn't seem to have your issue though.  He eats the same as you except that he cooks it.  He is, I think, a good 10 to 15 years younger than you.  He runs half-marathons.  I'm not a member over there so I can't post, but I'm sure there are more than few that read this thread that CAN post your question over there to get his response.  Maybe even that Jeff guy who is everywhere. 

-E

Yes, Charles confirms that the recovery time is longer on zero carb meat and water.  But at the same time, he finds that less exercise is required to maintain fitness.  Charles only runs twice per week.  He doesn't jog.  I believe he does mostly interval work.  He also lifts twice per week, but he has been running alot of races lately, so he has not lifted for several weeks in a row.  He found that even after going several weeks without lifting, there was no loss of strength.  Charles is in his early 40's.

[Erasmus]

Yes, Charles confirms that the recovery time is longer on zero carb meat and water.  But at the same time, he finds that less exercise is required to maintain fitness.  Charles only runs twice per week.  He doesn't jog.  I believe he does mostly interval work.  He also lifts twice per week, but he has been running alot of races lately, so he has not lifted for several weeks in a row.  He found that even after going several weeks without lifting, there was no loss of strength.  Charles is in his early 40's.

Yeah, no sooner than I posted, I popped over and saw those posts.  However I believe his point is more about muscle rebuild and over training rather than one of fuel.  Of course it really doesn't matter WHY you need to wait 3 days if 3 days is what you need to wait.  The only valid reason to find out for sure is if you wanted to optimize your training.  In this case (Lex's) and in fact most cases the training is for general conditioning so "optimizing" is not needed.  And, I suspect, optimizing is probably bad as it most likely comes at the expense of something else, the general health.  Probably. 

-E

[lex_rooker]

Find a Field of grass. Always jog on grass when going for more than a mile and especially every day.
Our ancestors always have the answers. The reason why the could walk and run around bare footed is because they were on grass, mud etc. If they were on cement they would have had knee problems for sure. Even if you have really cushioned shoes, jog on grass. Its fine to walk on cement with cushioned shoes. i walked every where bar foot once even on cement. I developed knee pains. i went back to my shoes and healed quickly. When walking places I try to walk on grass as much as possible, even though my shoes are well cushioned.

Hi Sully,
I wish it were that easy.  I've found that as I've gotten older the pits, divits, and gopher holes in grass are worse than an even hard dirt track or cement sidewalk.  20 years ago I could take these things in stride.  Now, my joints are not as flexible and forgiving as they once were and it is very easy to twist and strain the various joints on uneven surfaces - especially when I can't see imperfections.

My favorite running surface is a rubberized asphalt, but these are expensive to install and maintain so most of the local schools don't have them, and the ones that do, don't open their tracks to the public.  My choice is either deal with the jarring of joints when running on a smooth hard surface, or risk twisting my knee or ankle and possibly tearing ligaments by running on an uneven but cushioned surface like grass.

It seems that everything is a compromise,

Lex

[lex_rooker]

Experience of those who run the Boston marathon is that they must drink water full of electrolytes, I add dried seawater to my drinking water first for this (Celtic salt) and avoid the heavy clumsy leg feeling and heart problem.

See Angelo's posts on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group, he does extreme sport - European style bicycle in Italy, and he finds it necessary to do carb loading to maintain his endurance.

Clearly, we are running out of some nutrient, probably magnesium and potassium from the experience of those who have heart rhythm disturbances, and I bet this is a message from the heart for you too, except you don't get the heart palpitations.

The mystery is why we have reduced stores of minerals and/or energy, and what to do about it.

Hi William,
I'm not sure that I'm running out of any specific vitamin or mineral.  I find that I have great endurance for constant but low intensity work.  It is only when jogging or running intervals (ie high intensity activities) that I need an extended recovery period.  I have tried supplementing  with various things and I haven't found anything that shortens the recovery period.  Since I eat zero carb, my body must manufacture glucose (and hence glycogen) from protein, and even protein is limited on the high fat diet I'm currently eating.  This makes me suspect that it is a glycogen storage issue, but of course I really have no idea.  It will be interesting to compare recovery times when I return to a diet higher in protein and lower in fat.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

I'm starting to get fitter but I have been struggling with recovery especially after a hard training session (above anaerobic threshold). If I try and repeat my performance within the next two days I just do not have 'the legs' and I'm 30 yrs. I think your 3 days recovery time could be accurate.

Andrew, Your experience, (and other zero carbers on other forums) seem to support mine.  My guess is that it is a glycogen storage issue, and since we have to manufacture our glycogen from protein the process is inefficient at best.  In a previous post I pointed out that this extended recovery time only seems to apply to "intense" activities like running.  I have no problems with prolonged but less intense activities like digging sprinkler trenches.

Another thing I find is that being well hydrated is critical.  I don't dare start jogging if I'm the least bit thirsty or I'll barely make it a mile or two.  I do best if I drink a quart of water within an hour or so of exercising.

Lex