Lex's Journal

[Alan]

i'm reading through  the various published patents on fat-content measurement;   and looking through the operator's manual of the FA73, i'm skeptical that a $900 device could do better than +/-  5% accuracy.    Yes,  i know that all the supermarkets and food establishments use it.  That doesn't negate my statement.  The real labs are using pulsed-NMR machines which start at about $20K.  The American Association of Oil Chemists are the folks who write standards.


The good news is, it should be relatively simple to make up calibration batches by combining clarified  butter with a pure protein like pureed microwaved egg white

I repeat my statement that butcher's "fat" trimmings are full of proteinaceous connective tissue.  The trimmings i am getting seemed to run about a third (by volume) or more, of protein. By weight it would be an even higher percentage.

[lex_rooker]

i'm reading through  the various published patents on fat-content measurement;   and looking through the operator's manual of the FA73, i'm skeptical that a $900 device could do better than +/-  5% accuracy.    Yes,  i know that all the supermarkets and food establishments use it.  That doesn't negate my statement.  The real labs are using pulsed-NMR machines which start at about $20K.  The American Association of Oil Chemists are the folks who write standards.

From a practical standpoint what difference does it make.  5% is plenty good enough for my purposes and far more accurate than having no measuring tool at all.  Assume I calculate that I'm consuming 250g fat per day.  Over a six month period I would consume a total of 100 lbs of fat.  5% represents an error of 12.5 grams per day or a total of 5 lbs of fat over the 6 month period which I think is rather insignificant.  If you think it is important then by all means get yourself a pulsed -NMR machine or whatever.  I'm quite happy with my FA73.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

Lex wrote: "My normal mix of Slankers pet food and ground beef comes out to about 19% protein and 15% fat by weight.  My daily meal starts with 500g of this mixture.  This works out to 95g protein and 75g fat so the initial protein/fat ratio by calories is about 35/65.  Total calorie count is about 1,050. I then add about 175g of rendered beef fat to this mix.  This gives me 95g protein and 250g of fat.  The protein/fat ratio by calories for this is 15/85.   Total calorie count is about 2,630."

Hardwick Beef said they target their ground beef at 15% fat, so that's about the same as your beef/organ mix. You said suet contains about 85% fat, so if I eat raw instead of rendered suet, then I need to increase the mass from 175 g to 206 g.

So this is what I come up with as a mix to match your intakes at 2630 calories, correct?

Raw 100% grassfed beef at 15% of mass as fat: 500 g
Raw suet: 206 g
Total calories: 2,630

[lex_rooker]

So this is what I come up with as a mix to match your intakes at 2630 calories, correct?

Raw 100% grassfed beef at 15% of mass as fat: 500 g
Raw suet: 206 g
Total calories: 2,630

You'll probably gain weight on this so be prepared to lower either the fat content or your total food intake if you don't want the extra body mass.  Also, I said that I thought one important aspect of what I'm doing is including the pet food in my mixture so as to get a good variety of organ meats and other offal - maybe 10%-12% of the total weight of my daily food.  If you aren't including something similar then I'm not sure you'll achieve the results that I have.  The pet food is the only real difference between what I'm doing and what other ZC folks who have been less successful have tried.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

I don't think I'm ready to go whole hog with the Slanker's deal yet, so I'll try to approximate. I could do 10% of intake by weight as liver, which would add some additional fat, carbs and nutrients:

Ground beef 430 g
Liver 70 g
Raw suet 206 g
Total weight 706 g

[Coatue]

When going ZC, would it be safe to go : 1/2 pound lean muscle meat, 1lb mix of organ meats, and 2/3lb fat as the main meal? I'm trying to avoid becoming to thin and developing kidney stones. I read in the book Primal body-Primal Mind that 45-55 grams of protein was sufficient for an olympic body builder and the excessive protein is just as bad as eating excessive carbs. So please help me find the a good balance.

[miles]

olympic body builder

?

Olympic Weight Lifter/Mr. Olympia Body Builder?

[KD]

?

Olympic Weight Lifter/Mr. Olympia Body Builder?

I think he is saying that at least Nora. G's opinion is that even the people that one would think would require massive protein consumption, do not.

When going ZC, would it be safe to go : 1/2 pound lean muscle meat, 1lb mix of organ meats, and 2/3lb fat as the main meal? I'm trying to avoid becoming to thin and developing kidney stones. I read in the book Primal body-Primal Mind that 45-55 grams of protein was sufficient for an olympic body builder and the excessive protein is just as bad as eating excessive carbs. So please help me find the a good balance.

have you actually eaten this meal? I would say try eating this way first and see if its even doable. the organs will contribute protein of course as well, probably going over Nora's levels at least. - whether that is at all important

[lex_rooker]

When going ZC, would it be safe to go : 1/2 pound lean muscle meat, 1lb mix of organ meats, and 2/3lb fat as the main meal? I'm trying to avoid becoming to thin and developing kidney stones. I read in the book Primal body-Primal Mind that 45-55 grams of protein was sufficient for an olympic body builder and the excessive protein is just as bad as eating excessive carbs. So please help me find the a good balance.

I’m sure this would be safe as would eating 1 lb lean muscle meat, ½ lb mix of organ meats and 1/3 lb fat – or, 1 1//2 lb lean muscle meat and no fat, or just 2 lbs of organ meats, or even 1 lb of just fat.  Eat what satisfies you.  Some days you’ll feel for more fat, other days less.  Whether organ meats are needed or not is a subject of debate.  I’ve had success adding a bit (1/4 lb) of pet food to my daily mix.  The pet food isn’t all organ meats, but a mixture of all the waste meats that can’t be sold as well as organ meats.  I’d be surprised if organ meats made up even 10% of my total mix. This paleo thing is not complex.  If it were, then paleo man could not have survived.

It is true that I got kidney stones.  No way to tell if they were present before I started this dietary adventure or if they were caused by it.  My research seemed to indicate that a common issue with those suffering from kidney stones was low fluid intake.  I’ve increased my fluid intake and had no more problems – at least so far.

So how does the author of Primal body-Primal Mind know that 45-55 grams of protein on a ZC diet is sufficient?, and if this is only related to Olympic  body builders, what else are they eating to compensate for the low protein intake?  Under what conditions (other than Rabbit Starvation) is excessive protein a problem and what evidence is there to support this?  What is the definition of “excessive carbs”?  I have no idea what a good balance is.  I eat meat and fat, and drink water until I’m satisfied – is that a good balance?

No need to answer these questions – just want you to do a bit of critical thinking about the things you read, and understand that statements like “excessive carbs” or “excessive protein”, or “balanced diet” are all totally meaningless unless they are specifically defined.  Whether you are eating sufficient protein has to do with the ratios of your total macro nutrient intake, and unless you know the specifics of the dietary protocol being referenced, these numbers are meaningless as well.  If you are not eating plant based carbs then you’ll need to eat enough protein to supply your blood glucose needs as well as your protein needs.

My protein intake varies between 75g and 200g per day.  My fat intake varies in a similar manner.  My carb intake is very low and is usually limited to what few carbs there are in meat, but then my blood glucose levels are rather high at 100 mg/dl – almost all of it being manufactured from the protein I eat.

Lex

[Alan]

I am 100% convinced that eliminating gluten grains improved my quality-of-life immensely.

I've also mostly stopped eating plants, but - speaking in a kind of objective way -I can't honestly say that it's done any observable good except in eliminating most flatus.

It may be a horrible mistake, or it may be the gift of longer life - but I don't SEE or FEEL any change, except the flatus nuisance being gone.

[lex_rooker]

I am 100% convinced that eliminating gluten grains improved my quality-of-life immensely.

I’ve had a similar experience.  I got about 90% of the benefits by just going paleo – lightly cooked meat with a small salad (about 1 cup) and maybe a piece of fruit as a snack every day.  I did the ZC thing as an adventure and it has worked well enough that I’ve stuck with it.  It even appears that my BPH is finally showing some improvement as after 5 years on raw ZC I’ve been able to cut my medication for this issue in half.  Whether the improvement is from ZC or would have eventually occurred from my original paleo protocol we’ll never know.

I've also mostly stopped eating plants, but - speaking in a kind of objective way -I can't honestly say that it's done any observable good except in eliminating most flatus.

This sounds like a benefit to me.

It may be a horrible mistake, or it may be the gift of longer life - but I don't SEE or FEEL any change, except the flatus nuisance being gone.

It’s all about what is important to you.  Long life is not important to me.  I want a high quality life.  What good is long life if for the last years you are physically or mentally incapacitated and are unable to do the things you want to do.  It is OK with me if I die tomorrow because I’m able to do everything I want to do today.

I’m not married to this or any other dietary protocol.  If problems start to develop and they seem to be related to diet, I’ll change in a heartbeat.

Lex

[Josh]

I got about 90% of the benefits by just going paleo – lightly cooked meat with a small salad (about 1 cup) and maybe a piece of fruit as a snack every day

That's interesting...in your opinion do you think you would have got the improvements that have gradually come over time if you stuck to this diet?

(I know it's hard to say, but I'm still interested in what you think)

[Josh]

My reason for asking is that say if you could get 90% of the benefits this way...I find raw paleo probably 80% harder to stick to at the moment...not harder to eat, but just in terms of preparation, fitting in with work, travelling etc. So it's food for thought.

[KD]

My reason for asking is that say if you could get 90% of the benefits this way...I find raw paleo probably 80% harder to stick to at the moment...not harder to eat, but just in terms of preparation, fitting in with work, travelling etc. So it's food for thought.

being around alot of fairly vibrant conventional paleo dieters lately I have these similar thoughts sometimes..here is my take.

before I had joined this forum I had done RAF previously and had done also pretty limited raw vegan diets also for many years. Anyway, just prior I was researching very high fat/keto type diets again and started doing what I could transitioning back in eating a very strict cooked paleo type diet. This included just grassfed or wild meats/fish eggs and vegetables. The problem with eating this way for me was there was no real source of energy on this diet as I found truly cooked (never experimented with rendered) fats to be disgusting and hard to come by without taking the same preparations you speak of on raw - bumming around farmers markets or Slankers or whatever. Basically to me it seemd to require the same effort of anything I have done previously, and with all the cooking (even just limited to once a day) was a pain i the ass. Also, while I could theoretically go out and have a steak at a restaurant or a tuna salad at work or something..this not only wasn't very filling but for whatever reason never really benefited my social life and was pretty much as affected as on raw/required the same kind of effort into shopping or being around my house and pretty much the same or more level or prep or control etc...I had some benefits just from getting off whatever even conventionally healthy diet I was back eating, but I doubt it would have been sustainable improvement long term per my issues at least. If anything its easier for me just to bring a mason jar to work than some container with hard boiled eggs or something. Seems to be somewhat of a freak-show to most any way you slice it. I think some flexibly is good but I don't feel like any truly health diet is going to fit all that well into mainstream societies assumptions.

I've been sampling a bunch of different raw foods and even cooked meats and veg here and there with no major drawbacks with the idea that being able to go out have some steak, a drink, or eat fruit - or other foods that usually I do not eat - when traveling is important to my long-term health, so I I totally agree with your logic though, but not sure if the numbers you listed would be the same for me as far as ease.

[Alan]

"I find raw paleo probably 80% harder to stick to at the moment...not harder to eat, but just in terms of preparation"


i find the opposite.   i'm somewhat skeptical of claims of benefits of raw-foods; nontheless,  i eat almost all food raw because i can buy it and it eat, without producing more than one dirty spoon to be washed up.

i guess this confession blows my chances of getting a date with Ms RawFoodSOS.

[lex_rooker]

That's interesting...in your opinion do you think you would have got the improvements that have gradually come over time if you stuck to this diet?

(I know it's hard to say, but I'm still interested in what you think)

Josh/Alan/KD,
Just no way of knowing.  I've noticed a lot of small benefits like better digestion, less gas, seemingly more even energy throughout the day, however, I really can't say that these would not have occurred with my previous lightly cooked VLC diet protocol over this same 5 year period.  Unlike you, I've found the simplicity of eating the way that I do rather liberating.  You see, I don’t fix food every meal or every day.  I thaw and mix enough food for 10 days to 2 weeks.  I repackage in single day packages and refreeze.  Each day I eat one package and take out the next package to thaw overnight in the refrigerator.  That’s it.

It takes about 45 minutes to mix up 15 or 20 lbs of raw meat and repackage it in ZipLoc sandwich bags, and then I only have to do this once every 10 days or so.  If I’m going to be out and about for the day I just take a plastic container and a spoon along with a thawed package of raw meat and I’m set for the day.  By the time I’m ready to eat, the meat is room temperature which is the way I like it and I just chow down wherever I am.

When traveling away from home, I take a Lunch Cooler and put 3-4 days worth of food in it.  It stays cool enough for at least 3 days and if I’m going to be gone longer, then I either make up the difference with pemmican or I treat myself to a couple of extra rare rib-eye’s at a primo steak house like Morton’s, Ruth Chris, or Wood Ranch etc.  My total time spent preparing food and eating it is probably less than 30-45 minutes per day and that includes the original prep time once every 10 days or so.  Most people spend more time than that agonizing over which fast food joint they’re going to go to for lunch.

My daily routine is super simple.  I’m up around 6am.  I shower, shave, and dress.  I pull out my thawed meat and set it in a dish on the counter (or a plastic container if I’m going to be in the car all day), and let my food start to warm up.  I take a frozen package of food out of the freezer and put it in the fridge for the next day.  I then start my day’s activities.  Between noon and 2pm I start to get hungry and when I come to a convenient stopping point in my work I grab my food and a spoon and eat.  This takes maybe 20 minutes.  I then go back to work and pick up where I left off.  I work until 6pm – 7pm, then come the house and watch a bit of news or a TV program with my wife.  I then read for a couple of hours and hit the sack around 10-11pm.  Next day I do it all over again.

If I’m low on food, before going to bed I’ll pull out all the fixin’s for anther 10 days or so and let them thaw over night.  In the morning after dressing, I’ll mix up my food and repackage which takes about 45 minutes.  I keep two packages out (one for the current day and one for the next day and freeze the rest.  From there it’s back to the normal routine.

Hope this helps.

Lex

[Alan]

today,  i ate my first pet-food/ground-beef mix.

i bought this "Happy n' Healthy" branded cat food at Whole Food Market in La Jolla  (yep, Merchant Marine has moved me here for awhile).  Ingredients listed as: beef heart, organic chicken, beef kidney, beef liver.

sad to say, the stuff has quite a bit of bone chips in it.  i'm sure those are ok for my metabolism, and maybe excellent for my metabolism....   i just don't like to chaw down on bone chips.

i look forward to the day when i am settled down as much as Lex and can develop a routine with a standardized set of suppliers who deliver to me at a fixed address.

since i'm holding a stockpile of jars of ghee that was (ounce-for-ounce) expensive ,and since ghee,  unlike un-refined beef "fat trimmings", is actually all fat, i slobered some of that into the mix as well.

[lex_rooker]

today,  i ate my first pet-food/ground-beef mix.

i bought this "Happy n' Healthy" branded cat food at Whole Food Market in La Jolla  (yep, Merchant Marine has moved me here for awhile).  Ingredients listed as: beef heart, organic chicken, beef kidney, beef liver.

sad to say, the stuff has quite a bit of bone chips in it.  i'm sure those are ok for my metabolism, and maybe excellent for my metabolism....   i just don't like to chaw down on bone chips. 

I've tried several of the commercial raw pet foods as well.  Most are imported and based on lamb, but some are mixed as the one you tried.  They all seem to have a great number of bone chips in them so I assume this is on purpose – either to discourage people from eating it, or it is considered an important nutritional element for dogs and cats.  A bone chip now and then is not a problem for me and I find this occasionally in the Slankers pet food, but most of the commercial stuff is just full of bone chips and I find it difficult to eat so I stick with Slankers.

As offered before, you are welcome to drop by anytime as you are only an hour and a half or so away from where I live.  Just give me a heads-up so I’ll be sure to be home.

Lex

[Josh]

Lex, thanks. Yes I can see that if you have all the elements in place it could be very easy. Not to bitch about my life, because I have access to a lot of good raw food, but it seems like there's always something to make it complicated and I get caught somewhere without food or time to make it. I think what I need is to get the jerky drier working and make loads of pemmican when I have a bit of free time.

[Alan]

>> They all seem to have a great number of bone chips in them so I assume this is on purpose – either to discourage people from
>>  eating it, or it is considered an important nutritional element for dogs and cats


On the third hand, we have the possibility that they do it because bone chips are cheaper than actual flesh; and because they can get away with it.

they can get away with it because all the Cinna-flavored sweethearts out there, pay a lot of attention to labels....   but don't go so far as to TASTE anything labeled cat food.....

[yuli]

On the third hand, we have the possibility that they do it because bone chips are cheaper than actual flesh; and because they can get away with it.

Yeah they do it to save money. Predators like cats hardly even eat bone, they use blood for calcium.
And without blood the best calcium/mineral supplement for them is eggshells ground btw.
I wouldn't feed my cats a bunch of bone chips either...

[Alan]

>>>>   I wouldn't feed my cats a bunch of bone chips


yeah, i know how cats are.... they're all cuddly loving on you....   then they beg to go outdoors, and they run over to the neighbor lady,
and they start serenading her with pitiful meows and looks that melt a Canadian glacier....  to convince the neighborlady that you are
starving them to death.  Then she feeds them nicer stuff than you feed yourself.

And how do I know all of this?  Well, they say it takes a rat to recognize a rat.

I love your cats day and night Yuli, but now that you've.....  let the cat out of the bag?    that there's no bonechips
in their food, they better EAT IT ALL and EAT QUICK.   Because I am perfectly willing to take candy from the baby's mouth, as it were.....

[Alan]

just stumbled across the prior discussion of hominids eating only, or at least preferring organ meats in the downed prey animals

assuming that there is any evidence that such is true (an open question), if it IS true, we don't have to resort to any sort of  inplausible "instinctive knowledge of nutrition" arguments to explain it.

we can merely note that uncooked muscles are very fibrous.  In a wild animal, the muscles would be all that much tougher to chew on,  than from modern cultivated animals which are typically harvested in what amounts to late childhood.

[TylerDurden]

 In palaeo times, however, raw muscle-meats would not have been able to be refrigerated so tribesmen would have likely waited, anyway, until those meats became aged enough to deal with easily.

[dsohei]

and they had better stronger healthier jaws and teeth than we do now. jaws and grip strength are 2 bio-markers of true health.