Lex's Journal

[lex_rooker]

What do you think of someone's chances if they can't get the organ mix?

I wish I knew.  All I can say is that I've been very successful eating the pet food as part of my food mix and others that have attempted ZC eating mostly muscle meat have experienced problems over the long term.

All you can do is give it a try and see how it goes for you.  If I was unable to purchase organ mix, I'd get as wide a variety of organ meats as I could find and grind my own mix which I would then add to my daily food just as I do now.  At a minimum I'd look for tripe, brain, liver, kidney, pancreas, spleen, and heart.

Lex

[Josh]

I was eating a few organs before, but it's gonna be hard now. I appreciate the reply anyway. Maybe I will try Dr Ron's freeze dried pills.

[lex_rooker]

I was eating a few organs before, but it's gonna be hard now. I appreciate the reply anyway. Maybe I will try Dr Ron's freeze dried pills.

Who knows, you may not have any problem at all.  I'm just passing along my observations and personal experience.  If you do start to experience problems then you'll have information that may help point to a solution.

If I was in a situation where I couldn't get a variety of organ meats or make my own mix, and I started to have problems, then my 3rd option would be to go VLC and add a small salad or a piece of fruit to my daily food intake with the expectation that these would add the missing elements.  As long as you keep the total carb load low, say below 75g/day, you'd probably be fine.  I think Lutz put his patients on less than 72g/day and they very well.  Just choose your carbs wisely, nix the grains, beans, and dairy, and keep the intake of sugary fruits fairly low.  Focus more on the non-sweet fruits like cucumbers, summer squashes, tomatoes, and other salad type greens and vegetables.  I'll bet you'll do great.

You can always return to ZC or whatever other protocol you prefer when conditions permit.  Remember, there is no perfect diet.  ZC is not perfect and there is no logical reason to try to force yourself to maintain it when living conditions make it impossible.  Just make the best food choices that you can based on wherever you are and don't worry about it.  A couple of years on VLC or even LC aren't going to make much difference over a 80+ year lifespan.  The human animal is rather adaptable, and we tend to do pretty well even when condtions are not optimal.

Lex

[Josh]

Thanks a lot for that info. It seems to make sense to eat salad and get more variety of foods for less carb intake so I'll do that, and thanks for the perspective.

I just saw Lowenherz's question.

I would like to learn more about "keto adaption", mitochondrial energy production, the transition, symptoms and all other relevant aspects.

If I may, you might find Lyle McDonald's books useful. 'The Ketogenic Diet' mainly as well as 'Ultimate Diet 2.0' and 'A guide to flexible dieting'

Bear in mind that he doesn't believe in longer term adaptions to ketosis over time, and recommends bagels etc for carbs...however especially in the first book there is a lot of info.

[PaleoPhil]

@Lex - Speaking of dairy, what do you think about the commonly made point that milk, along with honey and fruit, is one of the few foods made to be food for animals (though infant animals of different species, of course) and therefore is not loaded with antinutrients and should be safe to eat, with some arguing that butter (preferably from pastured cows and raw and maybe cultured) is a particularly excellent food?

@Josh - Lyle M. recommends bagels? That's a bit surprising. Bagels with pasteurized cream cheese seem to be one of the world's unhealthiest foods (along with donuts, pizza, cookies, cakes, pastries, candy, ice cream, etc.). Did he say why he recommends them?

[Josh]

Lyle M. recommends bagels? .......Did he say why he recommends them?

He believes in wheat and starchy carbs, so a wholewheat bagel would be right on target. He also allows a little 'cheat foods' like candy or whatever you want etc on the carb up day, which I can see the point of as it may be psychologically healthy if not physically, especially with his flexible dieting system which could help a lot of people.

As I said before, one of the difficulties for me of the raw paleo diet is the all or nothingness it leads to.

In any case, he is dealing with losing weight and doesn't believe in 'healthy eating' in the way a lot of use would see it, but still has a lot of clearly presented information on ketogenic diets.

[PaleoPhil]

I don't see it as all or nothing for everyone so much as mostly avoiding the worst foods on the planet and going stricter where necessary (such as in my case, I've found). Wheat is my worst of all foods, based on my experience (I'm not saying that's the case for everyone). Anyone who broadly advocates wheat products without major caveats about traditional processing, gluten sensitivity and so on generally goes in my dust bin of history. Been there and done the whole wheat route. Major disaster for me. I can't read everything, so weeding out those who are big on wheat without warnings is one of my filters, though I do make some exceptions if there's some topic in particular I'm interested in, and I have read some of Lyle's stuff. Does he give any such warnings?

[Josh]

No, Lyle is nothing to do with paleo dieting, he's on a different planet so no warnings. I just think his book the ketogenic diet has the best information for the layman that I've seen. I'm not saying follow his plan.

You still have to bear in mind that it's all taken from short term studies, so he doesn't accept what Lex says about longer term adaptions etc. but worth a read imo.

Regarding all or nothing, there are little ways that we can 'cheat', eat cooked meat or a little candy without too many problems. But say for example if I ate a whole cooked meal with rice for example, adapted to paleo my gut would feel really crappy, it would throw me right out of whack. For me this is an issue with the diet as I feel it's psychologically healthy to relax, have a night off drinking with friends (70g carb per pint), get a meal out. I feel there is a lot of value in this for people on some kind of controlled diet who are not paleo, but unfortunately not really available if you want the best health in future.

[lex_rooker]

Josh,
I've read Lyle McDonalds work and have the two books you mentioned on my bookshelf.  I also recommend them when I think it is appropriate. Lowenherz question was regarding studies on mitochondria and cellular adaptation (at least I think that's what he was asking) and though I haven't looked at Lyle's books lately, I don't remember that he covered that much.  He was more into cycling the ketogenic diet for weight lifting and sports performance.  I'll have to look when I get time.

Phil,
My problem with dairy is with the milk proteins and milk sugars.  Many people are intollerant to these as our bodies stop manufacturing the enzymes to properly digest them once we are weaned.  This is true for many animals.  Milk works well for them until they are weaned and then they become intollerant.  Some of us are able to delay this intollerance by continuing to drink milk well beyond the weaning stage.  Just because we can do this doesn't seem to me to make it optimal.  Once  past the age of 3 I just don't believe that every body needs milk, and I think that there is a good bit of evidence that the opposite is true.

As for butter, as long as your talking pure fat I suppose butter works.  I eat it on occasion when eating out becuase most of the meat available is too lean and butter is the most available fat.  It's one of those "make the best choice you can" situations and I'd prefer the extra fat even if it is butter rather than overly lean meat which just doesn't satisfy.

Lex

[Josh]

No I don't think he covers cellular adaption. I took it to mean he wanted general info on ketosis as well.

I brought up longer term adaptions to ketogenic diets on Lyle's forum, and he weighed in to say people like you are wrong about long term changes. He doesn't seem to believe in anything beyond the initial 2 week period of brain fog etc going into a keto diet.

[PaleoPhil]

No, Lyle is nothing to do with paleo dieting, he's on a different planet so no warnings.

Yes, I know he's not Paleo. I asked because there are a lot of nonPaleo experts now who are familiar with the harm that gluten grains cause, such as Dr. William Davis, who just published a big-selling, highly-rated book called Wheat Belly.

You still have to bear in mind that it's all taken from short term studies, so he doesn't accept what Lex says about longer term adaptions etc. but worth a read imo.

Yes, you jarred my memory--I do remember skimming Lyle's paper, I think after having read Lex mention it quite a while ago. Unfortunately, I don't remember much of it now, other than the principle of cycling between ketogenic and carby days, IIRC. This is something I do myself for a number of reasons.

Regarding all or nothing, there are little ways that we can 'cheat', eat cooked meat or a little candy without too many problems. But say for example if I ate a whole cooked meal with rice for example, adapted to paleo my gut would feel really crappy, it would throw me right out of whack. For me this is an issue with the diet as I feel it's psychologically healthy to relax, have a night off drinking with friends (70g carb per pint), get a meal out. I feel there is a lot of value in this for people on some kind of controlled diet who are not paleo, but unfortunately not really available if you want the best health in future.

If drinking alcohol and eating nonPaleo foods enable you to improve your social life and have no negative effects on you, then by all means, go ahead. No one's stopping you and you don't have to justify it to anyone. I do the same, but I must admit that I feel less good when I do it and I don't recommend that anyone emulate what I'm doing. Perhaps you'll agree that just because you and I seem to be able to get away with it doesn't mean that everyone can? Over the years I've noticed many more people fail because of cheating and self-justification than because of excessive strictness, so there can be problems in either direction.

Of course, it isn't always necessary to eat non-Paleo when eating out or to drink alcohol to have a good time. There are infinite options. Like you said, it's not a matter of all or nothing.

[Josh]

Well for me it doesn't seem to work out that I can have a few drinks or a normal meal, then get back to raw paleo. Something about the gut. It will probably throw me out for a few days. Which is a shame, but look at all the good things about the diet.

[PaleoPhil]

I wouldn't stress over not being able to cheat much. Dr. Harris wrote a good article on the broader subject and this quote is particularly salient:

... planning for "cheat days" makes just as much sense as a weekly Marlboro red for ex-smokers or the odd line of coke once in a while after you have left Hazelden.

- Kurt G. Harris, M.D. in Archevore
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/p-nu/201104/smoking-candy-cigarettes

That makes sense to me. I don't plan cheat days, but I do sometimes cheat when circumstances make it so that it seems that the cheating would cause less aggravation than the consequences of not cheating. When I cheat, though, it's generally pretty limited and it has to be something I enjoy--I'm not about to eat the toxic foods that taste mediocre or worse. So when eating at relatives' homes or restaurants I might have some cooked soup that contains potatoes or rice, or cooked marinated roast beef with mango chutney and rice, or a dark chocolate bar or black coffee, but I'll skip the bread, pasta, pie, sandwiches, etc. and I'll limit portions.

I drink whiskey instead of beer and thus avoid the gluten and liquid carbs of beer. I generally dilute it with plenty of water or drink a small bit of stronger mix. I'll sometimes have some dry white whine or dry mead. These beverages still have some minor negative effects on me, so I only drink them occasionally on weekends and limit the intake per sitting and if I start to get tempted to drink more I'll forego them completely for a while. Have you tried whiskey, say with water and maybe a little lemon, or gluten-free sorghum beer or dry white whine or dry mead? Overall, I think it's probably best to avoid the stuff completely, but for those who choose not to give up alcohol, my guess is that gluten-free versions would be preferable, health-wise. Tyler reported that he fares well with "real ale," which is apparently raw. I've never seen it myself and it doesn't sound gluten-free, but the point is that people experiment and find what works for them.

What do you mean by a "normal meal"? Is real food--meats, fish, fruits, veggies/roots, tubers edible raw (including legume tubers edible raw, BTW) and nuts, either raw or cooked using traditional, less-toxin-producing methods--not normal?

[raw]

"My problem with dairy is with the milk proteins and milk sugars.  Many people are intollerant to these as our bodies stop manufacturing the enzymes to properly digest them once we are weaned.  This is true for many animals.  Milk works well for them until they are weaned and then they become intollerant.  Some of us are able to delay this intollerance by continuing to drink milk well beyond the weaning stage.  Just because we can do this doesn't seem to me to make it optimal.  Once  past the age of 3 I just don't believe that every body needs milk, and I think that there is a good bit of evidence that the opposite is true.

As for butter, as long as your talking pure fat I suppose butter works.  I eat it on occasion when eating out becuase most of the meat available is too lean and butter is the most available fat.  It's one of those "make the best choice you can" situations and I'd prefer the extra fat even if it is butter rather than overly lean meat which just doesn't satisfy."

Lex

I feel the same way about milk. But people who suffer mental illness or other kind of illness, they get poison from milk casein. Even raw milk has them. So we should be careful of drinking milk. I like to consume some fresh raw butter for extra fat than consuming milk. But definitely, that raw milk fat even doesn't work for my son. He likes and also he shows more improvement on raw meat fat, brain, marrows, tongue...etc.

I am not discouraging to consume raw milk. Raw milk and in general, milk products are delicious. People who suffer diabetics, raw milk works like magic for them

[lex_rooker]

Josh,
People have a right to believe whatever they wish.  I like to have some real evidence to back up my beliefs and I think that my experiements as well as my lab work show that changes occur over long periods.  My cholesterol is a great example.  It started at 250+ and within 24 months had fallen to about 175.  Over the last 3 years it has slowly crept up to where it is now 207 if I remember correctly.  That's about 10 points per year.  I haven't changed anything I'm doing over that time yet cholesterol is still changing.  First a rapid drop and then a slow rise.

My weight followed a similar pattern.  It went from 215 or so and quickly dropped to a low of 148 over about an 18 month period.  It then slowly started to climb and is now around 160 where it is fairly stable as long as I don't over eat.  The weight gain has taken 3 years but for the first 18 months I could eat thousands of calories a day and I still lost weight.  Again, a rapid drop over the short term and then a slow rise, which would continue if I over eat and I have no doubt that I could be back to 200 if I wasn't careful.

It took about 18 months for urinary ketones to stabilize.  They rose rapidly and stayed high through the period of weight loss.  When I started gaining weight ketones dropped to between zero and trace and have stayted at this level ever since.

I'm not the only one who has experienced this.  Charles Washington of ZIOH fame thought I was wrong as well - untill he hit the 2 year mark or so and suddenly he started gaining weight again.  He was rather shocked as he had been telling people that this was impossible as long as you ate ZC.

There is much evidence that our bodies are continually adapting and when you make a radical dietary change, it can take months or years for all the effects to manifest themselves.  Lyle may not know this becasue none of the research he has done has allowed a stable dietary protocol over several year's period.  His studies are in weeks and months, and he's constantlhy cycling from high carb to low carb every few days.  Under these conditions he's probably right.  Any change that's going to show up will do so in the first couple of weeks.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

I am not discouraging to consume raw milk. Raw milk and in general, milk products are delicious. People who suffer diabetics, raw milk works like magic for them.

Many things are delicious, (I especially like chocolate chip cookies) but that doesn't make them good food for humans.  My guess is that if diabetics opted for water instead of milk the effect might be even more magical.

Lex

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, and Kurt Harris has added beverage restriction to his protocol, limiting beverages to water-based ones:

1. Eliminate sugar (including fruit juices and sports drinks) and all caloric drinks, including milk. Drink water, tea or coffee.
http://www.archevore.com/get-started/

[cherimoya_kid]

My weight followed a similar pattern.  It went from 215 or so and quickly dropped to a low of 148 over about an 18 month period.  It then slowly started to climb and is now around 160 where it is fairly stable as long as I don't over eat.  The weight gain has taken 3 years but for the first 18 months I could eat thousands of calories a day and I still lost weight.  Again, a rapid drop over the short term and then a slow rise, which would continue if I over eat and I have no doubt that I could be back to 200 if I wasn't careful.

Fascinating. I had no idea that was even possible. Good to know.

[Josh]

@Lex yes my experience fwiw has always made me think you're right. For me so far it has been a similar experience to altitude adaption, gradually getting more energy. I think there are not many long term studies on high fat diets and as he has no interest in looking at the Inuit or Paleo angle, just draws his own conclusions.

[TylerVo]

hat do you usually eat? I know the ratio, but what are you eating to get the fat/protein?

I don't think I've seen what your meal plan looks like, but if you've written it already I'd appreciate it if someone would link me to the post.

[lex_rooker]

What do you usually eat? I know the ratio, but what are you eating to get the fat/protein?

I don't think I've seen what your meal plan looks like, but if you've written it already I'd appreciate it if someone would link me to the post.

Tyler,  you can start here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/journals/lex's-journal/msg4377/#msg4377

Today I usually use rendered fat instead of fresh fat and I often mix 1 1/2 lbs pet food to 4 lbs regular ground beef, but the pictures should give you a pretty good idea.  I use rendered fat as it doesn't require freezer space.  I only have a 7 cuft freezer so space is limited and I'd prefer to use it for the lean meat and pet food rather than for the fat.  It is not ideal but is a resonable compromise that I'm willing to live with.

There are other postings throughout my journal that describe various variations.  I know it is tedious, but if you are really interested in what I'm doing and why, you may wish to read through my journal.  I expect it will answers many of your questions and will surely give you food for thought.

Lex

[lex_rooker]

I got the following note from a member of another forum.  I thought readers of my journal might be interested so I’m duplicating it here along with my reply.

Hi Lex,
I see you are still alive!
You may not have been keeping up with the latest Bru Ha Ha in the paleo world here on Jimmy Moore’s page. Lots of knives. http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/is-there-any-such-thing-as-safe-starches-on-a-low-carb-diet/11809
Jimmy asked for comments about Paul Jamanet’s Safe starches in low carb and each expert...so to speak...offered their take. One was Kurt Harris who is in the camp of...... ok on safe starches and you can’t really survive well without them. I asked him about you and your carnivory. He replied as follows:
•   
•   
•   
    Dextery  4 hours ago in reply to Kurt Harris

•   How do you explain Lex Rooker being a total carnivore for the last four years eating a diet composed of 85% fat and 15% protein and zero carbs? He seems to be thriving without safe starches. You know his Dexa Scan is fine. And his lipids are fine. Lex does not appear to be deprived of glucose at all. His ketones are doing just fine.
•   Flag
•   LikeReplyReply
•   
    Kurt Harris  1 hour ago in reply to Dextery

•   How do you explain people surviving for years on vegan diets, even though it will kill you in the long run? It is not impossible that a person could go from the SAD to meat and water and get healthier, yet meat and water is the not the optimal diet or even a very good one. Look at Danny Roddy's experience. He was a protege of Lex Rooker and got scurvy...

Lex-
Did Danny actually get scurvy or was that a rumor created by Sisson? Is it true or not? I could not find anything on Danny’s site. Did KGH misstate the facts?
Hope everything is fine in the clock repairing business.
Thanks
Dextery

Hi Dextery,
Sorry for the late reply. I've been out of town teaching a 1 week antique clock repair class. Just got back a couple of hours ago.

I spend almost zero time on the forums arguing over diet. What I'm doing seems to be working well for me at this time so I have no reason to look for an alternative. I really don't want to get dragged into discussions over "Safe Starches" or any other bit of dietary esoterica, as there is no way to tell what is safe and what isn't. Every self-proclaimed guru seems to be able to make the case that whatever they've chosen to eat is safe, or good, or optimal, or whatever. As for me, the best I can do is say that what I'm currently doing seems to be working but if I start to have problems I'll change in a heartbeat.

I have dinner with Danny on occasion and he's never mentioned scurvy to me, but that doesn't mean much. We usually talk about other things when we get together. One thing I can say is that Danny has never been shy about pointing out both the good and the bad of his dietary adventures on his blog so if he didn't mention it there then there is a better than even chance that it is just a rumor.

Dr. Harris isn't the only one that tends to assume that because Danny and I enjoy each other’s company on occasion, and we often agree in principal on the subject of diet, that Danny, (and others like him), are doing what I'm doing and it is not working for them. This is just not true. Danny has never done what I'm doing. He decided to try his own experiment with eating nothing but pemmican made from dehydrated muscle meat and rendered fat. He and I often discussed that this might lead to problems over the long term, and he did finally terminate the experiment as he wasn't getting the results he expected. Was scurvy an issue there? I have no idea. All I know is that after eating nothing but pemmican for more than one year, he gave it up because it wasn't meeting his needs.

In my case, I eat all parts of the animal in the form of Slanker's pet food. It is very strong tasting and as far as I know there are very few souls brave enough to eat the way that I do. Those that try it don't last very long as they can't tolerate the taste. I've been eating this way for about 5 years now with no signs of problems. I attribute my success to the pet food - not the fact that I eat zero carb. My own experience shows that when I'm away from home and not able to eat my normal daily mix for an extended period of time, I start seeing signs of problems brewing. When I return to my mix everything goes back to normal.

I also allow my food to sit out at room temperature for several hours before eating it. It becomes rather sour tasting, sometimes with a bit of a fizz to it - especially on very warm days, indicating to me that it is teaming with bacteria. It could well be that the bacteria are producing the vitamins or other nutrients that are in short supply in fresh raw meat. I just know that in paleo times there was no refrigeration and that much of the food we would have eaten would be swarming with bacteria. Who's to say that rotting meat teaming with bacteria isn't a vital part of our diet? I have no way of knowing, but it seems to make sense to me so I try my best to emulate what our natural environment would be like without all the modern food preservation techniques.

As you can see, my diet and lifestyle are far from just a simple zero carb, meat-only, diet. My food is a complex mixture of all parts of the animal and the exact make-up of this mixture changes with every order based on what went into the mix at that time. Every order of pet food is different. I also let my food ferment for several hours and sometimes overnight so that it is teaming with bacteria.

When I stop eating this mix and just eat a normal zero carb diet of fresh muscle meats I soon begin to notice little things cropping up, so I return to my tried and true mix and all is well again. I also don't know of anyone else that eats exactly the way I do, so just because others agree with me in principal, the devil, as always, is in the details. Very few are willing to deal in details. They want a quick magic cure-all that requires little thought and delights their taste buds.

Lex

[raw]

My husband eats almost 2/3 lbs of muscle meat, combining with fresh liver, kidney fats, kidney, heart, brains and egg yolks. I put his meal on the table for over night and he eats them in the morning before he goes to work. Basically this is the only meal he eats for the day. At night, he eats some fruits sometimes. But he feels full most of the time for 24 hrs.

My son eats almost all parts of entire animal. I never bought the pet food like Lex, but definitely could save tremendous money on that while my farmer is making his fortune selling me eyes, thyroids, stomach and all other things.

[PaleoPhil]

One thing I can say is that Danny has never been shy about pointing out both the good and the bad of his dietary adventures on his blog so if he didn't mention it there then there is a better than even chance that it is just a rumor.

He did talk about the red spots he got on his legs, and IIRC, I think he showed an image of it which looked much like what Mel of ZIOH experienced on an all-pemmican diet. Mel reported his issue was diagnosed as folic acid deficiency and which produces scurvy-like symptoms. Danny didn't report getting his issue diagnosed. Instead, he changed his diet and it resolved.

... I also don't know of anyone else that eats exactly the way I do, so just because others agree with me in principal, the devil, as always, is in the details. Very few are willing to deal in details. They want a quick magic cure-all that requires little thought and delights their taste buds.

I've seen that phenomenon with Stefansson and zero carbers assuming that because some Inuit people ate mostly meat that an all muscle-meat and water diet should be OK, and writing off raw foods, traditional cooking techniques, organs, stomach contents and other fermented foods, seaweeds, seasonal berries and other aspects of traditional Inuit diets as unimportant. That never made sense to me.

[PaleoPhil]

P.S., it looks like Danny deleted the blog post about what he termed "petechiae" on his legs when he was on an all-pemmican diet, but if someone's interested they could try asking him about it via email. I have found him very helpful and friendly.