butter attack

[rawlion]

Hi friends,

As I understand, butter is not in high favour with rawpaleo dieters. I'd like you to assault it, state why it is inferior to any other animal fats, why it's consumption is considered to be unhealthy and point to its main nutritional disadvantages in general. On my part, I'll try to defend it and, if possible, provide contrarguments.

[carnivore]

I believe raw organic clarified butter from pastured cow can be a good source of fat for someone who can't find fat from grass fed animals. It is a much better choice than vegetable oils.

Butter concentrates some problematic substances like lactose, casein, hormones, AGEs,.. that raw fat does not.

It is not a paleo food in the sense that our ancestors did not eat butter, so it is not surprising that so many people can't tolerate it.

Check that : http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/the-dangers-of-(raw)-dairy-consumption/

 

[goodsamaritan]

My wife's aunt was prescribed ghee 3 tablespoons a day for her fat.  That's much better than her vegetable oils and hydrogenated oils.  She won't eat raw animal fats as she isn't aculturated to it yet.  She says her seizures and mental health has improved.

I used to use butter as a crutch when I could not source good fat.
Butter is easy to find in the supermarket, albeit Anchor butter is pasteurized.
Ghee is easy to find in an Indian grocery.

But after some time when experience and taste has set in, even my own kids prefer raw yellow grass fed beef fat and fertilized duck egg yolks over anchor pasteurized butter or ghee.  It's about TASTE.  anchor butter doesn't taste good.  beef fat and egg yolks taste good.

If I had more money I'd get bone marrow more often.  Yummier.

I use ghee as my massage oil.

[rawlion]

Butter concentrates some problematic substances like lactose, casein, hormones, AGEs,.. that raw fat does not.

Butter is made by churning fresh or fermented cream or milk. I agree that butter made from fresh cream may contain some traces of lactose, around 0.4-0.6g per 100g. But butter made from fermented cream most likely will have none. With that said, would less than 1 g of lactose be enough to trigger onset of any intolerance? I doubt it.

The amount of casein in butter is minimal and can often be tolerated without a problem even by individuals who are highly sensitive to milk and other dairy products. 100g of butter has about 0.8g of total protein. If casein made up about 80% of that, it would be less than 0.7 of a gram. I don't think that amount could be problematic.

If you're concerned about growth hormones. Organic butter is free of the potentially dangerous pesticides, antibiotics, and growth hormones that can be found in conventional butter products.

AGEs may be formed external to the body (exogenously) by heating (e.g., cooking) sugars with fats or proteins; or inside the body (endogenously) through normal metabolism and aging. RAW butter does not contain Advanced Glycation End products.

[carnivore]

Butter is made by churning fresh or fermented cream or milk. I agree that butter made from fresh cream may contain some traces of lactose, around 0.4-0.6g per 100g. But butter made from fermented cream most likely will have none. With that said, would less than 1 g of lactose be enough to trigger onset of any intolerance? I doubt it.

The amount of casein in butter is minimal and can often be tolerated without a problem even by individuals who are highly sensitive to milk and other dairy products. 100g of butter has about 0.8g of total protein. If casein made up about 80% of that, it would be less than 0.7 of a gram. I don't think that amount could be problematic.

Whatever the amount of lactose and casein that remains in raw fermented butter,  some people can't tolerate them.

If you're concerned about growth hormones. Organic butter is free of the potentially dangerous pesticides, antibiotics, and growth hormones that can be found in conventional butter products.

No, I am talking about naturally occurring hormones in milk that butter concentrates : Insulin, IGF-1, Betacellulin (BTC), Estrogens (particularly Estrone Sulfate), Precursors of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) :
http://www.articlesbase.com/health-articles/hormones-in-milk-part-1-876841.html

There are some past issues of thepaleodiet newsletter that discuss the dangerous "hormones in milk". Maybe someone has the links ?

AGEs may be formed external to the body (exogenously) by heating (e.g., cooking) sugars with fats or proteins; or inside the body (endogenously) through normal metabolism and aging. RAW butter does not contain Advanced Glycation End products.

Well, Olive oil contains a high amount of AGEs. It is (at least in France) always cold extracted.
Pasteurized butter is one of the food that contains the most AGEs.
The amount of AGEs in raw butter is probably not as high, but I would not be surprised that one can find a non-negligible quantity, unless you have some evidences for the contrary ?

[Josh]

I would add to carnivore's post - you say 'trigger the onset of intolerance'....If someone has a severe allergic reaction then 'trigger' makes sense.

However, if it's less bad, then it could just be one of the foods or factors raising histamine contributing to a bad situation.

I find to be honest I can eat butter without feeling too bad, but when I strictly cut out all things I tested intolerant to I reached a new level of mental function and peace.

Butter is a slippery adversary...you must attack with caution.

[TylerDurden]

I agree that even microscopic traces of lactose and casein in raw butter can cause a food-intolerance/allergy towwards raw butter as I've come across people mentioning that they had such a reaction.

On the other hand, AGEs are only a problem with raw foods if the relevant product is from an unhealthy source(eg:- grainfed meat).I haven't heard of raw olive oil or raw butter ever having AGEs(unless coming from grainfed cows, presumably), and am somewhat sceptical re this.

[rawlion]

No, I am talking about naturally occurring hormones in milk that butter concentrates : Insulin, IGF-1, Betacellulin (BTC), Estrogens (particularly Estrone Sulfate), Precursors of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) :
http://www.articlesbase.com/health-articles/hormones-in-milk-part-1-876841.html

Why do you think that butter concentrates them?

I'm sure those hormones were found in conventional butter, most likely from non-organic cows. I'd like to see the results obtained from organic pastured animals.

[carnivore]

On the other hand, AGEs are only a problem with raw foods if the relevant product is from an unhealthy source(eg:- grainfed meat).I haven't heard of raw olive oil or raw butter ever having AGEs(unless coming from grainfed cows, presumably), and am somewhat sceptical re this.

In the link your provided (http://www.newcastleyoga.com.au/links/Food%20AGEs%20text.pdf) :

Oil, olive 120 kU/mL
Butter 265 kU/

I don't know in America, but in France, even the lowest quality of olive oil is cold extracted simply because one does not extract more oil with heating. t
I don't think this olive oil was heated at more than 50°C.

[TylerDurden]

That link covered pasteurised/heated foods and their AGE-contents, so the olive oil couldn't have been raw, AFAIA.

[rawlion]

In the link your provided (http://www.newcastleyoga.com.au/links/Food%20AGEs%20text.pdf) :

Oil, olive 120 kU/mL
Butter 265 kU/

I don't know in America, but in France, even the lowest quality of olive oil is cold extracted simply because one does not extract more oil with heating. t
I don't think this olive oil was heated at more than 50°C.

Table 1. Advanced glycoxidation end products (AGE) content of selected foods prepared by standard cooking methods...

[carnivore]

Why do you think that butter concentrates them?

I'm sure those hormones were found in conventional butter, most likely from non-organic cows. I'd like to see the results obtained from organic pastured animals.

What makes you think that organic pastured cow do not manufacture these hormones that are required by the growing calf ?

[carnivore]

Table 1. Advanced glycoxidation end products (AGE) content of selected foods prepared by standard cooking methods...

The standard cooking method to make olive oil is to cold extracted the olives...

[rawlion]

What makes you think that organic pastured cow do not manufacture these hormones that are required by the growing calf ?

At about 6 months of age, cattle are commonly injected with slow-release pellets of estrogen, which can speed up growth. This can be the case.

[carnivore]

At about 6 months of age, cattle are commonly injected with slow-release pellets of estrogen, which can speed up growth. This can be the case.

And what about the other hormones ?
Milk contains several hormones that are addressed to the growing calf, not to the human.

Did you read that ?
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/the-dangers-of-(raw)-dairy-consumption/msg5811/#msg5811

And also thepaleodiet newsletters about milk and dairy ?

[rawlion]

And what about the other hormones ?
Milk contains several hormones that are addressed to the growing calf, not to the human.

Does it? I'm not talking about milk, dairy or whatever. The food in question is BUTTER!

[rawlion]

No, I am talking about naturally occurring hormones in milk that butter concentrates : Insulin, IGF-1, Betacellulin (BTC), Estrogens (particularly Estrone Sulfate), Precursors of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) :
http://www.articlesbase.com/health-articles/hormones-in-milk-part-1-876841.html

Article Summary

Loren Cordain, PhD, author of The Paleo Diet, has proposed the theory that a growth factor in milk called betacellulin may contribute to cancer.
Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) directly cancels out the effect of betacellulin on cancer cells and prevents cancer in laboratory experiments, especially in conjunction with saturated fat. Grass-fed milk contains five times more CLA than grain-fed milk and is rich in saturated fat.
Epidemiological studies do not support a relationship between commercial milk products and cancers of the breast, lung, stomach or pancreas. Lowfat milk, but not whole milk, may contribute to ovarian and prostate cancers. High-fat dairy products are associated with a reduced risk of colorectal cancer.
The association between grass-fed milk and cancer incidence has not been studied, but based on laboratory experiments we can expect its high CLA content to afford us powerful protection against cancer.

http://www.realmilk.com/betacellulin.html

[rawlion]

No, I am talking about naturally occurring hormones in milk that butter concentrates : Insulin, IGF-1, Betacellulin (BTC), Estrogens (particularly Estrone Sulfate), Precursors of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) :
http://www.articlesbase.com/health-articles/hormones-in-milk-part-1-876841.html

As far I am aware some of the hormones in milk that can turn into dihydrotestosterone, or DHT, are actually in their precursor status. They may be turned into active DHT during the processing. RAW butter as a source of it? I wouldn't be that sure...

[carnivore]

Does it? I'm not talking about milk, dairy or whatever. The food in question is BUTTER!

So you want me to believe that all the hormones in bovine milk disapeare during the butter processing and that it just leaves pure fat and water in the stuff ?
You'll have to explain me how this miracle happens !

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T7C-4KNMB0V-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1000721484&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=dbd8c7c2064947a4c193710f07d74490

[rawlion]

So you want me to believe that all the hormones in bovine milk disapeare during the butter processing and that it just leaves pure fat and water in the stuff ?
You'll have to explain me how this miracle happens !

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T7C-4KNMB0V-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1000721484&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=dbd8c7c2064947a4c193710f07d74490

Not at all. There is a lot of stuff there... I don't argue with that!
http://tinyurl.com/ls9taq

[razmatazz]

correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all those hormones PROTEINS, therefore their presence in raw butter or ghee would be very little?

[carnivore]

Butter is mainly small/medium chain triglycerides, while fat is mainly long chain TG. The former is metabolised like sugar, while the latter does not burden the liver.

[PaleoPhil]

Rawlion, butter is more expensive than most suet (when comparing grain-fed to grain-fed or grass-fed to grass-fed). Do you think butter is superior to suet, nutritionally? If not, why bother with it?

[Raw Kyle]

I don't have any information to back this up, but common sense would tell me that the particular fats and their proportions in butter would be less health giving than the fats on an animals body. And by health giving I mean to humans, who have evolved to eat the body fat but not the milk fat, especially not the milk fat in a concentrated form as butter.

[invisible]

Butter has a different fat profile to that of animal flesh fat - it contains many short and medium chain fatty acids whereas tissue fat contains only long chain fatty acids. The metabolic pathway is virtually identical when eating fat from meat as energy or using your own body fat for energy (fasting/calorie deficit) but is changed when eating dairy fats or carbohydrates. My hypothesis is that eating only fat from meat keeps a more stable energy supply (as the body only ever uses one type of energy source) and keeps the body overall in regards to hormones, metabolic rate, thyroid etc stable and not fluctuate between times of eating and fasting.