Unreferenced. Difficult births occur in all tribes, hardly being insignificant. And Inuit certainly don't have lower rates of difficult births by comparison to others.
Re: A day in the life of TylerDurden
« Reply #184 on: Today at 04:09:35 AM »
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/a-day-in-the-life-of-tylerdurden/msg16684/?topicseen#new
I didn't have the time to fully address 1 issue that Paleophil claimed. It's actually well-known that death in childbirth was endemic in the Palaeolithic. In fact, one reason why female average lifespan was 5.4 years lower than the male average lifespan during the Palaeolithic was because of this factor. When one considers that males were prone to deaths during hunting etc., one can see that the number of deaths from childbirth was pretty high. As for claims re ease of childbirth of zero-carb diets, I have yet to see any real evidence of that.
Here's a link with quote:-
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/angel-1984/angel-1984-1a.shtml
"Paleolithic females died younger than males due to the stresses of pregnancy and childbirth while still carrying the burdens of food-collecting and moving camp. "
I figured this being a Paleo forum, you folks would have already heard about the easy childbirths among people on hunter-gatherer-type diets that every anthropologist who studies such people reports, if they discuss childbirth at all, but I guess not. Thank you for the opportunity to share one of the more amazing benefits of Paleo diets. The phenomenon of the excruciatingly painful modern childbirth (dystocia) has become so common and so embedded in our social psyche (I cannot count the number of TV and theater presentations I've seen of women screaming in agony during depictions of childbirth), that some people have trouble accepting the possibility that it might be generally unnecessary and avoidable. So I recommend trying to focus on the positive potential this offers, rather than the unnecessary horrors of the past. This is one of the more exciting topics of paleoanthropology and evolutionary medicine.
I would most appreciate any easy childbirth experiences people here may have had or have heard of to add to my collection. Thanks!
Effects of Modern Foods vs Ancestral/Paleo/Wild Foods on Pregnancy and ChildbirthAccumulating evidence links many complications of pregnancy and birth defects to modern foods (especially among peoples that have genes highly susceptible to damage from modern foods, such as peoples who only recently gave up a hunter gatherer way of life). These problems include the following and more:
Pregnancy problems: gestational diabetes, pre-eclampsia, toxemia, intense morning sickness, polyhydramnios (too much amniotic fluid), sciatica, ectopic pregnancy, miscarriage, dystocia (obstructed pregnancy) ...
Effects on the child (both early on and long term): allergies, nutritional deficiencies, light sensitivity, nightmares, excessive screaming or crying at night, autism, ADD/ADHD, type 1 diabetes, Down Syndrome, Marfan Syndrome, lax ligaments (hypermobility; double jointed) and flat feet (which are commonly caused by lax ligaments in the foot), narrow jaw, arched upper palate with prominent and crowded front teeth, pectus excavatum and carinatum, muscle wasting, ...
In contrast, diets consisting mainly of Paleo foods are linked with easy pregnancy and childbirth and lower rates of birth defects. There is much research and the experience of multiple Paleo dieting mothers to confirm this.
A Darwinian View of Obstructed Labor Robert P. Roy, MD, FRCSC
Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada
Address reprint requests to: Robert P. Roy, MD, FRCSC, 4398 Buchanan Street, #1805, Burnaby, BC, V5C 6R7, Canada; E-mail: robertproy@yahoo.ca.
Obstetrics & Gynecology 2003;101:397-401
© 2003 by The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
http://www.greenjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/101/2/397This essay discusses the evolutionary biology of dystocia. From a Darwinian standpoint, the high frequency of dystocia observed today seems evolutionarily untenable. Hunter-gatherers, most notably the Inuit [when eating their traditional diet], appear not to suffer from dystocia. It may be that people from an agriculture-based background are, obstetrically speaking, less well adapted to the good nutrition of a modern affluent diet.
Q: Is NeanderThin safe during pregnancy?A (Ray Audette): As hunter-gatherers have the easiest births and the lowest incidence of birth defects, it is not only safe but is preferred. But before adopting any changes, you must consult your family physician. The pregnant woman craves added nutrients to nourish and sustain herself and her developing baby. The mother's immune system is also working hard to protect mother and child, so care must be taken to avoid the forbidden foods while satisfying cravings by increasing dietary diversity. In this way the nausea common in pregnancy can be greatly reduced if not eliminated.
Obesity, waist-hip ratio and hunter-gatherers LEP Wood (2006)
BJOG: An International Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology 113 (10), 1110-1116.
doi:10.1111/j.1471-0528.2006.01070.x
Abstract
Obesity is a rapidly growing global problem. It is not simply the result of eating too much, and not all types of obesity have the same significance. Obesity is in part genetic, and one particularly important genetic type of obesity is the tendency to 'truncal obesity',-that is, a raised waist-to-hip ratio. Such obesity is powerfully associated not only with a tendency to diabetes, but also to cardiovascular disease, ('Syndrome X'). Interestingly, this is the type of obesity seen in every hunter-gatherer (HG) population around the globe. Such people are intolerant of carbohydrate, especially refined carbohydrate, especially in the excessive amounts typically consumed in affluent societies. In such pure HG communities, rates of diabetes can be as high as 50% [and higher], when the 'Western' lifestyle is adopted. Many of us, however, share some of their genes and their carbohydrate intolerance-perhaps as many as 20 or 30% of the world's population. Pregnancy can uncover this characteristic, and obesity and glucose intolerance in pregnancy are rapidly burgeoning problems. Quite contrary to the common nutritional dogma of encouraging regular carbohydrates, it is suggested that pregnant women with a high waist-to-hip ratio should be strongly advised to adhere to a low-glycaemic-index diet. Additionally, many dietary interventions, some of them derived from observation of HG populations, are of proven benefit in reducing the expression of glucose intolerance and may well help in tackling the obesity epidemic.
Rising caesarean section rates: can evolution and ecology explain some of the difficulties of modern childbirth? W A Liston FRCOG
Department of Obstetrics, Simpson Centre for Reproductive Health, Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh
Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine
http://www.jrsm.org/cgi/content/full/96/11/559#REF15[...] Why is it that modern human childbirth is so frequently associated with difficulty? Only occasionally has anyone attempted to explain this. [...]
With huge increases in population and later industrialization the life of modern woman and man bears little relation to that of the hunter-gatherer. Because biological evolution cannot keep pace, man is a hunter-gatherer living in a 21st century world. Admittedly, where selection pressures have been very strong (e.g. malaria and the haemoglobinopathies) there have been genetic changes, but the species retains much of the physiology of pre-agricultural times. Whereas hunter-gatherers went through tens of thousands of generations there have been only 500 generations of agriculturalists and just a few in the industrial era. Physicians and nutritionists have therefore proposed that certain modern diseases, particularly heart disease and type 2 diabetes, are caused by a maladaption to our current lifestyle. Similar arguments can be applied to reproductive health and obstetric performance.
CHANGES IN HUMAN ECOLOGY
There are four chief ways in which this misfit between biology and lifestyle could affect childbirth-diet, population density, exercise and reproductive behaviour. The diet in palaeolithic times was by most accounts richer in protein and poorer in carbohydrate, with a different pattern of fats.8,9 It was also very varied. In particular the carbohydrate component had little refined starch and sugar with much more fibre. The agriculturalists then moved to a diet with less protein and fat, and more complex carbohydrate. The modern western diet contains a super-abundance of food, especially sugar and fat with less protein than that of early upper palaeolithic man. In poorer parts of the world where protein is scarce, food consists largely of complex carbohydrate, but western tendencies and fast food are spreading to all parts of the globe.8,9 [...]
What is not widely known is that the invention of agriculture and the development of settled living had pronounced affects on physical stature. Study of skeletons points to adverse changes in the teeth11 and a general reduction of height.8,12-14 Angel 15 has charted the patterns over thousands of years. Humans were tall in early upper palaeolithic times and did not become as tall again until the late 20th century in Western Europe and the USA. ....
CONCLUSION
Changes in diet, population density, exercise and reproductive behaviour mean that primigravid women are commonly shorter, older and fatter than is ideal for first childbirth. These adverse factors have been well recorded....
From: TRUTH
By: amg455
Subject:
NutritionDate/Time 2005-06-21 14:04:19
http://forum.dragondoor.com/nutrition/message/341942%5CWeston A. Price, DDS, traveled worldwide in the 1930's to investigate the health of primitive peoples who could not obtain foods of the western world. He and his wife found that all of these primitive groups ate a diet very high in fat. Some ate primarily animal meat and fat while others ate primarily seafood. Their diets did not make a difference in their health. They were all extremely healthy, strong, robust and had almost no dental cavities. They all had a broad dental arch (jaw shape) and the women had very easy childbirths because of the broad pelvic structure. Children of these people who moved to a modern society area developed crowded teeth with many cavities, and the women suffered difficulties in childbirth similar to our present western society.
From:
The Ascent of Humanityby Charles Eisenstein
Penn State University
www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter1-5.php Weston Price, an American dentist who lived in the early 20th century .... was curious about the decline of dental health he had seen over the decades of his practice, and hypothesized that the rapid increase in the prevalence of tooth decay, crowded dentition, and so forth, which accompanied a host of other, formerly rare, non-dental maladies had something to do with our diets. So he quit his practice and spent many years traveling to remote corners of the world where people still lived without modern foods. The societies he visited weren't all Stone Age, but they were still primitive by our standards. For example he went to remote Swiss villages accessible only by mule, he went to the outer islands of Scotland, he lived with the Masai in Africa, the Inuit in Alaska, the aborigines in Australia, Polynesians in the Pacific. In all these places he found almost zero tooth decay, zero obesity, zero heart disease, zero cancer, easy childbirth, broad jaws with all 32 teeth. The diets were different everywhere but there were some things in common - for instance, people ate very few concentrated, refined carbohydrates or other processed foods. Price's work lends support to the contention that at least in some respects, primitive people enjoyed better health than is the norm today, even without the modern medicine that we think keeps us healthy.
Anecdotal Reports:Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 02:57:58 GMT
Sender: Paleolithic Eating Support List <PALEOFOOD@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Stacie Tolen <tolen4@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: paleo & pregnancy
Dear Jeremy,
I am a mother of two, and was a vegetarian during each of my pregnancies-Oops. I am sorry to say that due to the effects my diet had on my uterus and sacrum (and yes I can prove this), I endured a C-section with each of my children. I also suffered severe swelling, extreme fatigue, polyhydramnios, sciatica, and many more complications and such during my pregnancies. Though a longtime vegetarian, I craved buffalo meat like mad. Protein is absolutely essential during pregnancy, 80 mg daily. Conditions such as pre-eclampsia and the dreaded toxemia are attributed to protein deficiency. B-12 (available only in animal ingredients: meat, eggs, milk), folate, iron, calcium and vitamin C are others whose deficiency can cause tremendous problems for the pregnant woman, or worse, can damage the baby. Dairy products, especially those containing traces of hormones (BGH) can cause painful menstrual cramps, and possibly worsen pain with contractions. Soy is especially harmful to the fetus, and I have the child with autistic tendencies who proves that. When I eat grains, it causes problems with my joints (some people get arthritis) and if the pelvic and sacral joints are not functioning optimally, the baby will have problems getting through. While this organization does not speak of paleolithic diet, I do recommend that you check out
http://www.bradleybirth.org for info. on prenatal nutritional requirements and, if you're interested, natural childbirth. Please do not confuse Bradley with Lamaze, they couldn't be more different and I personally do NOT recommend Lamaze or, worse, something wich claims to be a combination thereof. Your baby's mother should begin paying attention to her diet now if you plan to conceive in the next few months.
Best wishes, Stacie
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:57:19 -0500
Sender: Paleolithic Eating Support List <PALEOFOOD@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Brad Cooley <Bcooley@SOUTHDOWN.COM>
Subject: Re: Healthy Babies
Justin,
My first advice for your pregnant coworkers is to read The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff (
http://www.continuum-concept.org/) and Our Babies, Ourselves by Meredith Small. These books really don't address nutritional aspects of childcare, but do address other issues that affect health. If they would like breastfeeding information, their local La Leche League (
http://www.lalecheleague.org/) should have monthly meetings and individuals that can provide information and other support. LLL has been a great resource for my wife.
My wife gave birth to our first child in April 2000. Before she started incorporating paleo philosophy into her eating habits, she was unable to conceive. Within 3 weeks of going paleo, she was pregnant...maybe just a happy coincidence. During her pregnancy she gained only 25 lbs, gave birth to a 7 lb 10 oz girl, was walking within an hour of the birth, and dropped 35 lbs within a month (from pre-birth weight). I should point out that she didnt always eat paleo foods, but stuck to it pretty well. Certainly, her diet contributed to a relatively low weight gain, a successful natural childbirth, and significant loss of weight after childbirth. Also, IMO, because she eats a lot of meat, her milk production has been very good while breastfeeding. The baby is always well-fed, and sleeps very well at night.
Oddly enough many of the diets recommended for pregnant and lactating women are near-paleo, but with an emphasis on fruits and vegetables. The same can be said for children.
Let me know if you would like more info.
Brad
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:28:23 -0600
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 01:22:32 -0500
Sender: Paleolithic Eating Support List <PALEOFOOD@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Ray Audette <rso456@AIRMAIL.NET>
Subject: Re: the "perils of childbirth" -- question for Ray
From: Jana Eagle >
> I am just wondering if you have some evidence about paleolithic
> childbirths and death statistics or if you are taking the modern-day
> media images of the traumatic operating room childbirth and
> transferring it onto paleolithic times.
I didn't mean to leave this impression. From studies cited by [Vilhjalmur] Stefansson,
hunter-gatherers have far less trauma and labor in childbirth than do
agricultural women. Just removing the hazards of gestational diabetes often
found in modern women ( resulting in very large babies) would improve these
statistics considerably but I suspect much more is involved.
When Gray-Hawk ( seven on May 14th ) was born, it was without doctors or
drugs. We arrived at the mid-wives['] at 3:15 PM and he arrived at 5:20 after
2 hours of mild labor […]. As my prediction, five months earlier, of the easiest birth they had ever seen came true, the midwives bought six copies of my book.
After one year he weaned himself from his mother and would eat almost
nothing but Pemmican for the next year. About the only exceptions were
watered-down fruit juice and pork rinds for teething.
Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:07:05 -0600
Sender: Paleolithic Eating Support List <PALEOFOOD@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Jana Eagle <jana@FIG.ORG>
Subject: toddlers and paleo
Rebecca Fincher <meegok2@HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
> 1. I was reading in the archives a chain titled "pain in childbirth?" that
> interested me because of my experience with PPD (not known to be present in
> tribal cultures or most "traditional" cultures)and because I have had 2
> C-sections (intended to have a natural birth both times). Is Ray Audette's
> wife an isolated example of paleodiet eaters who give birth quickly and w/o
> complications? Anyone else out there? Anyone with experience to the
> contrary? Is there any research on this available?
I can find out more about this, depending on your interest. I do know someone personally who had a very easy, painless birth and was following a paleo diet. I wish I knew of more paleo eaters and their birth experiences. I imagine there are so many circumstances that affect birth that every situation is different...
> 2. I have corresponded some with Stacie Tolen on this subject, but if there
> is anyone out there who has raised a toddler on this diet, I would
> appreciate your input. How do you keep enough calcium in the diet? (Both
> my kids still bf; maybe it's not a concern.) What foods do you prepare that
> your kids like/can eat?
believe it or not, I talked to my two year old and explained that sugar wasn't good for her body, and she doesn't ask for cookies, ice cream, candy like i thought she would. she will ask me if something has sugar in it and if it does she understands that we're not going to eat it. everywhere we go, people are offering her sugar, though. it makes me realize how much candy kids really do eat
we have this little game about food that "grows on trees". if it grows on trees or on a plant, we eat it. so she asks does coconut grow on trees? do kiwis grow on trees? and we talk about all the food that grows on trees.
i prepare almost all our meals at home and always pack snacks to take along on outings. she likes meat a lot, and goes through phases on fruits and vegetables and nuts, where she will really like one thing and eat a lot of it, and then a week later seems "finished" and moves on to something else. the freshest, in season produce seems the most attractive. also she likes jerky.
JAna
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:18:49 -0700
Sender: Paleolithic Eating Support List <PALEOFOOD@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Susan Carmack <scarmack@DOWCO.COM>
Subject: Paleo is in the Bible too!
Hi Kristina and paleopeoples,
....
I have a friend who went completely paleo - no grains - who just had a baby at her house in a tub of water. NO pain. 3 1/2 hours of labour. She is 40 and said it was so easy, she would have 'a million more'. Her husband agreed to one. She has 2 toddlers at home already!! This woman was originally scheduled for a Caesarian … because she almost died last time from heart disease/or an allergic reaction to penicillin.
Is this pain free birth indication that we could be close to going back to the Garden?
> Planting and tilling and harvesting,
> sweating in the fields from dawn to dusk,
> Until you return to that ground yourself, dead and buried;
> you started out as dirt, you'll end up dirt."
The advent of agricultural revolution and the cultivation of grains! This is coincident to Eliots post about the grains for slaves project. We became slaves when Adam and Eve got the boot! Adam and Eve had everything to eat in the Garden, no sweat involved:
(Genesis 2:8-9) . . .. 9 Thus God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one's sight and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.
...but it didn't take long to wreck the Place.
Paleobest,
Susan
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:21:11 -0700
Sender: Paleolithic Eating Support List <PALEOFOOD@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Mermaid Rose <mermaidxrose@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Paleo pregnancy
To all the mamas-to-be, congratulations, and thanks for bringing healthy babies to the world. Midwife here, doiing home births for 20 years, water births as well... very ancient practices (duh, lol).
I believe paleo is the way of eating that creates healthier pregnancies. Obviously we are here today because of how we ate. There are pregnancy related health conditions that can be avoided by eating this way...ie gestational diabetes and toxemia (both which are treated by upping consumption of protein).
As far as the fish oil...it is the only supplement I recommend to my mamas....I am just not sure if the amount you are taking may be too much...wish I knew the answer. I would not recommend that much myself. Not based on anything other than gut feelings. I wish I could get everyone in my practice to eat the plaeo way....but alas...there are a bunch of vegetarians in the crowd! I love them all!
Remember to eat frequently...helps keep blood glucose even...helps especially with nausea (for which, btw, I also recommend protein). Snacking is a good way of getting all that. Especially nuts. Since you are wanting snacky foods, a nutty trail mix is a good way to take care of the desire of something crunchy and something sweet (put dried apples or apricots in it). Hard boiled eggs is another quick snack.
If I can be of any help, just write. Happy birthing!! Keep us updated.
Love & Peace
Lillian
Bad Modern Birthing PracticesSender: Paleolithic Eating Support List <PALEOFOOD@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
From: Marsha in Texas <marsha@CCMS.NET>
Subject: Re: Longevity and Paleo -- childbirth
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 05:08:45 -0800
From: Kenny Brown <pts_racer@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Longevity and Paleo
<snip>
>Interesting idea. Maybe the glucose IV's has
>something to do with causing a greater risk for
>infection following surgery.
In 1971 when our first son was born we wanted it to be a home birth. Complications changed that. I was in the hospital for less than 24 hours and had a drug-free birth. We insisted the baby not be given sugar-water as his first meal outside the womb! The pediatrician on duty [the one we'd spoken w/and who'd agreed to do as we wished was out of town the day Jake was born] went ballistic. He stormed into the recovery room, pointing his finger in my face, YELLing at me that I may have read a book about birthing babies but he was a trained professional and just who did I think I was talking to telling HIM he could not give my son sugar-water!! Whew!
-----Original Message-----
From: Paleolithic Eating Support List
[mailto:PALEOFOOD@LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG] On Behalf Of Mrs Caroline Centa
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 4:02 AM
To: PALEOFOOD@LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG
Subject: Re: pregnant paleo?
I was pregnant after I had been Paleo for 2 years. I was reasonably strict too. I got sent to a dietitian because the midwives said my diet was ridiculous and not sufficient. The Dietitian said it was fine. I had to make sure I was getting enough energy, calcium (100g almonds has twice as much calcium than 100mL of milk... we eat a lot of almonds in the form of almond meal. You can also get calcium from Kale, Brocolli etc) and carbs and fibre (lots of fruit, especially dried fruit was good for that).
I survived (although I did eat a couple of 'naughty' things due to cravings at the time) and the labour was very good (I had been told that being Paleo makes your body handle labour better and even though I haven't done it before I have witnessed 3 births and think I did really well - no drugs or interventions and not as much pain as I anticipated). My baby came out very healthy and alert. He was a good weight (6 pound 14) and was only 3 days early.
We have also been bringing him up on a Paleo diet and he is developing in leaps and bounds.
The Paleo diet is our natural diet. It does well for our bodies and our children. We are designed to eat the diet and be pregnant. I am also pregnant again (9 weeks now) and intend on doing the diet fully this time (not succumbing to the cravings). I am hoping by doing it properly the pain will be even less...
Paleo dieter, Rachel Matesz summed up the common-sense nature of improved pregnancies on a Paleo diet:>Date: Thurs, 5 Aug 1999 22:24:40 +0200
>From: Rachel Matesz <matesz@earthlink.net
Subject: Paleo-pregnancy
>Re: Have any studies been done on paleo-pregnancies? Women following a
>paleo WOL
>during their pregnancy.
For: Maria Tomashefsky-Dugan and others. Are you serious? We don't need
any studies!!!! We have 2 1/2 million years of evidence that a Paleo diet
can support reproduction. How on earth do you think we got here? The PWOE
and PWOL isn't new. It's not a fad....it's the longest practiced WOL and
WOE on the planet. Every heard of a 2 million year old fad? Whatever we
modern people have been doing, it's a blink of an eye, a few minutes, if
that, in the context of a 24 hour block of time. ….
Easy birth vs Dystocia among animals:Easy birthing vs. dystocia is even apparent in wild vs. domesticated animals. The ranch hands of the Adams Ranch in Florida said that they leave their grass-fed pregnant cows to handle births on their own out in the fields and there is rarely if ever a problem, whereas grain-fed cattle have much higher risks of complications and tend to require having a farmer or vet at hand during the birth, in case there are problems. Every wild animal birth I have seen on nature shows was amazingly quick and easy, whereas I have seen a grain-fed, barn-cooped cow in tremendous distress from her pregnancy.
