The dodgy Weston Price

[alphagruis]

I still say that the kid was probably one of quite a few Down's syndrome patients that Dr. Price tried this on, and he was probably the one who responded the "best".

Dr. Price specifically chose not to mention that many of the groups he studied ate the organ meats raw. I assume he did this because he either found it disgusting, thought it dangerous, or wanted to make sure people didn't get turned off to native diets simply because they would be disgusted by reports of eating raw organ meats.  I am betting on the third of those 3 reasons, mainly.

So, yes, I think Dr. Price deliberately withheld information. I don't think he ever outright lied, but definitely he withheld information.  He was trying to use his position of high respect in the dental community to spread better nutritional practices, though. Not that it excuses it, but I think that's a big part of the reason. I think he may have assumed that he'd lose credibility with the medical community and the general public if he started talking about eating raw meat, organs, and fish.

I think he probably believed that it was better to spread the practice of eating cooked high-quality food than to let people keep eating the SAD of the day.  I think he was right about that, too.

As far as grains go, I think he may have been legitimately confused about grain-eating.  There were a number of groups he studied that consumed grains who still had excellent teeth, like the Peruvians.  Of course, their good teeth were probably due to the extremely high-quality seafoods they ate, plus the high quality of the soil that their crops grew in, but...I can definitely see how he would get temporarily confused by that data.

It is too easy to criticize WP today with what we know today. I'm quite sure that those such as TD who criticize him so violently today would have done better.

[TylerDurden]

What's funny is that they are essentially 100% wrong about Weston Price and almost 100% right about the importance of food enzymes in digestion.

Well, nothing new actually, we definitely disagree here.

If you're suggesting that the focal infection theory(mentioned by quackwatch), on which Weston-Price based his scientific reputation on , was correct, then you're sadly mistaken. It's long been scientifically debunked along with most of the other WP-derived notions. As for comments re sweets/frequent eating etc. ruining teeth, that is rather hard to dispute as there's plenty of evidence re this.

[alphagruis]

If you're suggesting that the focal infection theory(mentioned by quackwatch), on which Weston-Price based his scientific reputation on , was correct, then you're sadly mistaken. It's long been scientifically debunked along with most of the other WP-derived notions. As for comments re sweets/frequent eating etc. ruining teeth, that is rather hard to dispute as there's plenty of evidence re this.

No Tyler, I do not suggest that. WP was wrong in some of his beliefs, as you are, I am, or others on this forum and elsewhere are for sure wrong in their present beliefs. Hope our kids and kids of kids  won't judge our mistakes as severely.  

It is definitely unfair to say WP is a lier and dismiss so pretentiously his overall outstanding work.

[TylerDurden]

My various reasons for criticising Weston-Price is as follows:-

1) He recommended all sorts of unhealthy Neolithic foods(fermented grains/raw dairy) as well as cooked foods which people do very badly on. That is mitigated a little by his observations re raw animal food-consumption by various tribes.

2) His more extreme claims re improving, however temporarily, people with genetic illnesses(I'm specifically thinking of the Down's Syndrome example, but I'm sure there are others(oh yes the claims linking criminals to poor diets, conveniently forgetting that many white-collar criminals have far better diets than the impoverished classes. There's even some modern WAPF-inspired claim linking homosexuality to soy-consumption which is similiarly bogus.

3) His promotion of the deluded "Noble Savage" theory, implying wrongly that because something was practised by relatively modern hunter-gatherers, that it must be healthy/OK for us to do the same. I absolutely loathe that theory as it presupposes that Mankind once lived in some mythical state of perfect bliss, an Edenist absurdity that needs to be demolished.

[wodgina]

Were talking WAP not WAPF please don't change the subject.

[TylerDurden]

Were talking WAP not WAPF please don't change the subject.

  The WAPF incorporates most of WP's ideas, such as the supposed link between criminals and diet.

[alphagruis]

Were talking WAP not WAPF please don't change the subject.

TD apparently never read the book by WAP....

And he nevertheless still naively believes he will convince us ....

A very amusing situation

[TylerDurden]

TD apparently never read the book by WAP....

And he nevertheless still naively believes he will convince us ....

A very amusing situation

 That's just mindboggingly stupid. Not only did I read the rather tedious book a few years ago, but I even have it at home. And I don't really think I can convince the most dedicated pro-Weston-Price fanatics, given the incredible hold the "Noble Savage" theory holds over the more naive among us, such as William etc.. I simply point out the fraudulent nature of Weston-Price/Aajonus and others so that the more sceptical among us can take note. I'm not bothered re the opinions of the rest of the scientific community, of course, since they're to some extent on my side given the plentiful evidence re heat-created toxins in cooking and the fact that WP's so-called "science" is on such shaky ground by modern standards, in the form of the laughable focal infection theory etc.

[William]

TD apparently never read the book by WAP....

And he nevertheless still naively believes he will convince us ....

A very amusing situation

Whether TD read the book is moot, as he does not understand what it is that WAP discovered. There is an old saying that " you can always tell a -----, but you can't tell him much" -
in the sad case of TD, he already knows everything, so trying to tell him something is futile.

[TylerDurden]

Whether TD read the book is moot, as he does not understand what it is that WAP discovered. There is an old saying that " you can always tell a -----, but you can't tell him much" -
in the sad case of TD, he already knows everything, so trying to tell him something is futile.

 Further hypocrisy on your part, dear troll. I suspect this whole fanaticism is derived from your being a pemmican-addict. We've had numerous info on the addictive effects of heated foods re opioids, and you seem to be just another example. Sad, really.

[wodgina]

1) He recommended all sorts of unhealthy Neolithic foods(fermented grains/raw dairy) as well as cooked foods which people do very badly on. That is mitigated a little by his observations re raw animal food-consumption by various tribes.

Yes but he warned of modern foods, no ones perfect .

2) His more extreme claims re improving, however temporarily, people with genetic illnesses(I'm specifically thinking of the Down's Syndrome example, but I'm sure there are others(oh yes the claims linking criminals to poor diets, conveniently forgetting that many white-collar criminals have far better diets than the impoverished classes. There's even some modern WAPF-inspired claim linking homosexuality to soy-consumption which is similiarly bogus.

Your answer doesn't make sense your also getting confused with WAP and the foundation.

3) His promotion of the deluded "Noble Savage" theory, implying wrongly that because something was practised by relatively modern hunter-gatherers, that it must be healthy/OK for us to do the same. I absolutely loathe that theory as it presupposes that Mankind once lived in some mythical state of perfect bliss, an Edenist absurdity that needs to be demolished.

Evil NAPD/WAP/WAPF should be crushed!!!!!!!! get over it and when you travel around the world and write a better book let me know.

[alphagruis]

 That's just mindboggingly stupid. Not only did I read the rather tedious book a few years ago, but I even have it at home.

No Tyler. Definitely impossible.

Either you've read the book and you are stupid.

Or you never read the book and you are a lier.

There is no other alternative left.  Sad.

 

[TylerDurden]

Yes but he warned of modern foods, no ones perfect .

Fair enough, his advice was of limited benefit. That I don't dispute. What I do dispute is the notion that he offered a genuinely healthy diet in an overall sense.
 

Your answer doesn't make sense your also getting confused with WAP and the foundation.

The remark re the WAPF was merely an aside remark,not my main point. WP was famous(infamous) for ascribing various characteristics such as criminal behaviour to diet, despite the fact there was no credible evidence re this.

Evil NAPD/WAP/WAPF should be crushed!!!!!!!! get over it and when you travel around the world and write a better book let me know.

One doesn't have to be a guru in order to criticise gurus. What I find odd is that you(and some others) are  happy with me criticising Aajonus or Burger for certain clearly dodgy behaviours, but WP seems to be considered a godlike figure, above reproach.

[TylerDurden]

No Tyler. Definitely impossible.

Either you've read the book and you are stupid.

Or you never read the book and you are a lier.

There is no other alternative left.  Sad.

 

Yes, there is, but you're too closed-minded to even consider it. The other alternative is that I have read the book and you are simply retarded or stupid or just plain ignorant. Well, like I said, there are quite a number of  RVAFers who are too closed-minded on this issue so there's little point in convincing them; just those who are capable of adopting a more rational, sceptical viewpoint re gurus. What I find most amusing , judging from the native nutrition yahoo group and related forums, though, is the very large number of  Creationists like William who favour WP's beliefs. Not surprising, really, as anyone dumb enough to buy into the whole Creationist mythology is going to be dumb enough to believe in WP's "Noble Savage" theories.Guilt by association....

[alphagruis]

Yes, there is, but you're too closed-minded to even consider it. The other alternative is that I have read the book and you are simply retarded or stupid or just plain ignorant.

Oh, the second part of your sentence is not an alternative but just a certitude: I'm proud to be a "retarted, closed-minded" scientist (author of about 150 peer reviewed papers in Physics) that is so "stupid" to definitely not believe in Tyler's or other's "ultimate truth" or ideology.

And I'm even apparently not the only RP forumer that is so "stupid"  

[van]

there's a time to simply walk away, you guys are not adding anything

[TylerDurden]

Oh, the second part of your sentence is not an alternative but just a certitude: I'm proud to be a "retarted, closed-minded" scientist (author of about 150 peer reviewed papers in Physics) that is so "stupid" to definitely not believe in Tyler's or other's "ultimate truth" or ideology.

And I'm even apparently not the only RP forumer that is so "stupid"  

Someone who is expert in physics can quite easily be an utter mindless moron in a non-related field such as food-science or biology(look at Linus Pauling or William Shockley as  typical examples). Plus, we don't even know for sure what genuine status your papers have within the scientific community, and there are multiple examples of scientists whose scientific views/opinions were held with high regard in one era, only to be 100% debunked a generation or more later, due to evidence of past fraud, miscalculations etc. - given the bizarre, esoteric nature of modern physics, it's even more likely within that field of science than any other).Whatever the case, I'm sure you feel very proud to have  the same opinions as similiar  morons such as the Creationist  William. Like I said, guilt by association..........

[alphagruis]

there's a time to simply walk away, you guys are not adding anything

Well, you're right. Hopeless, useless, futile.

[TylerDurden]

Perhaps it's best to just lock this increasingly pointless thread. I should add that the main reason for all the kerfuffle is that alphagruis got (rather childishly) pained, a while back,  because I dared to question one of his cherished "notions",namely the theory of punctuated equilbrium and so has had it in for me since then.