Author Topic: The dodgy Weston Price  (Read 37777 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2009, 05:51:12 pm »
Why wouldn't changing the skull shape do something to development? I mean, that stuff pushes and pulls on glands. Certainly if you smashed your nuts in a wedged position it could interfere with testosterone production and cause a man to have less manly features and development some female ones. Then you remove the nut wedging device and it starts production up at normal levels again.

Now imagine that some genetic defect could cause your nuts to wedge into a corner in your sack and impinge on hormone output. Then imagine someone like Weston Price gave you a special pair of underwear that put them in the right place. See what I'm getting at?

It's a false analogy. Sure, surgery could fix(if only to some limited extent) a brain injury caused by an axe(if the axe didn't permanently harm certain crucial parts of the brain), but the evidence re Down's Syndrome shows unequivocally that the damage results from within the womb re damage to DNA and has nothing to do with increased pressure on the skull or suchlike during the organism's subsequent lifetime. The other aspect is that Down's Syndrome causes multiple health problems which are not solely related to just 1 or 2 glands, but are body-wide(due to the genetic influence), so any claims re a significant cure of major symptoms of Down's are clearly bogus.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2009, 05:57:21 pm »
I think Tyler is just having fun playing devil's advocate.   -d

Not at all. My initial dislike of Weston-Price was the result of having read all sorts of rubbish in school ages ago, about the foolish Rousseau and  his theory of the "Noble Savage". When I subsequently discovered Weston-Price and his blatant recopying of the whole Noble Savage " nonsense, I was naturally up in arms when I noticed the clear gullibility of many RVAFers re their near-total acceptance of his beliefs.

I suspect this may be more of an American phenomenon, though. I have noticed that American Primal Dieters/WAPfers swallow all sorts of (Dances-with-Wolves-styled) nonsense peddled by Aajonus and the WAPF about the supposed perfect health of various native tribes. In the UK these sound ridiculous, of course, and most UKers would just be somewhat bemused  by fake accounts of the supposed perfect health of ancient British tribes or whatever local equivalent.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2009, 06:19:57 pm »


Quote
We have no idea if the child even actually had Down's syndrome or simply had some brain issue that generated similar symptoms.
Well, if the child didn't have Down's, then Price was either lying to us or so incompetent that he couldn't properly  diagnose any serious condition(except possibly dentistry-related, and even then...)

 
Quote
We have no idea if the improvement in brain function would be sustained or repeatable in other patients. We lack the data to evaluate Price's claim, which indeed should be treated with skepticism. However, to call it absurd, fraudulent or dishonest is totally unwarranted, irrational and unskeptical - it shows a prejudice being projected on the data rather than a cold, objective analysis.
Too damn right it should be treated with skepticism. And when there are many other reasons to doubt Weston-Price re other issues, then claims of fraud are perfectly justified.

Quote
You claim that no brain tissue was built up - how do you know? Why is that even relevant or necessary for the obtained result? You claim that it's absurd that changes can take place rapidly over three months - really? What clinical experience do you have to back that claim up? Let's review: you don't know what the problem with the child was, you have no training or schooling which would inform your opinion, you have no clinical experience treating patients with this type of surgery, yet you can state absolutely and without qualification that Price is lying. Apply your own standard of proof to your own claims and see what conclusion that leads you to.

I don't base this on my sole opinion/expertise but on a multitude of scientists who similiarly do not believe that the major symptoms of Down's Syndrome are curable within a 3-month period. Plus, I've already shown that Price made all sorts of dubious claims(re the faulty focal infection theory/holistic dentistry) since debunked by other scientists, which gives further reason to doubt his claims in other areas:-

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holisticdent.html

Simply put, I can accept a possible minor benefit re cognition but a massive increase in cognition would be impossible(unless Price was lying/incompetent and the boy had some other reason for impaired mental malfunction - which would have had to be slight)



Quote
You now make yet another sweeping general claim, that alcohol played a greater part in the ill health of populations than the switch to a western diet. Alcohol? Alcohol is part of the western diet. Leaving aside the obvious contradiction, I'm left wondering why it is you are grasping at such a straw. Of course alcoholism destroys people. Does it also rot their teeth, destroy their facial structure development and cause multiple vitamin deficiencies? Are you actually claiming that every single native populations' children were consuming enough alcohol to cause those issues? And you attack Price for absurd claims! Those problems were obviously caused by malnutrition, predominately as a result of switching to a bleached flour/sugar based diet. Alcohol certainly played a role in the breakdown of many societies' structure and health, but to claim that it's somehow a significant confounding factor demands a much greater justification than a bald assertion.

The claim re alcohol(not the only non-dietary factor, there are many others cited (such as smoking among the Inuit etc.) is valid. In case, you hadn't read on the subject, there are cases of "fetal alcohol syndrome" where even minor ingestion of alcohol during pregancy can lead to brain-damage in the child. There are also multiple reports of Australian Aborigines, even now, suffering far more from alcoholism than diet:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6353693.stm

. And alcohol is not a food or a drink per se, it is merely used as an intoxicant. If people depended on alcohol instead of water or soft drinks they'd be dead shortly, as alcohol causes dehydration. And like I said, there were several other issues such as a drop in exercise given reduced hunting as hunter-gatherer habits were abandoned etc. etc.

Quote
You seem desperate to find one thing on which you can base a wholesale dismissal of everything Price did that doesn't fit your belief system. Why? Most people seem capable of separating the 1930s medical theory from the 1930s observed results without throwing out the whole lot while accusing the man of being a liar.
Well, I agree that Price depended on outdated scientific methods much of which have now been disproven etc., but that still doesn't change the fact that Price was wrong/dishonest on many issues(not just 1!LOL!)
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline wodgina

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2009, 07:27:15 pm »
The quackwatch article was rubbish.

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Offline pfw

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2009, 07:50:19 pm »
Tyler, you're making a fundamental attribution error. You seem to think someone being wrong makes them a liar and a fraud, or "dodgy". That's neither logical nor rational.

Since you have no clinical experience whatsoever, I find your continued assertion that you know exactly how wrong Price was or how he lied with respect to the Mongoloid idiot difficult to respond to. Your argument in that regard boils down to "I believe that he's a fraud, and will fit the evidence to that belief as necessary." Your total lack of experience, qualification or expertise is incapable of denting your ironclad confidence in your belief. You claim that multitudes of scientists back you on this; can you cite, say, five articles by five different authors evaluating Price's claims, please?

You're now claiming that fetal alcohol syndrome was the reason Price saw deformed faces in every society he went to. Incredible. I'm sure you're aware of the hasty generalization fallacy, so I wonder why you continue to apply it. Making absurd claims in an attempt to show someone else's claims to be absurd is an interesting tactic; I can't wait to see where you go next. Smoking and exercise as causative factors in dental development and rapid tooth decay? Really, what is so hard to accept about vitamin deficiency leading to developmental problems given the indisputable fact that a diet based on bleached grains and sugar is deficient in vitamins and minerals?

At this point, were I to apply your standard of fraud with respect to price to your posts, I would have to conclude that you are an outright liar and a fraud. It would also be interesting for you to actually enumerate and explain every time you write "etc, etc" or claim "multiple sources" - perhaps then I could actually evaluate your claims on merit rather than be expected to accept them on your authority. I'm not a fan of ex cathedra, either.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 08:02:18 pm by pfw »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2009, 06:52:23 pm »
Tyler, you're making a fundamental attribution error. You seem to think someone being wrong makes them a liar and a fraud, or "dodgy". That's neither logical nor rational.

Not at all, If Price had made only moderate errors, he could be just called incompetent, but his  errors are so glaring and so obvious that nobody with any common sense could take them at face-value. I mean, the best one can claim is that Price was such an idealist re the "Noble savage" philosophy, that he, in his blindness, chose to "overlook" key discrepancies in his claims - but it's a long shot, I prefer the term "fraud".

Quote
Since you have no clinical experience whatsoever, I find your continued assertion that you know exactly how wrong Price was or how he lied with respect to the Mongoloid idiot difficult to respond to. Your argument in that regard boils down to "I believe that he's a fraud, and will fit the evidence to that belief as necessary." Your total lack of experience, qualification or expertise is incapable of denting your ironclad confidence in your belief. You claim that multitudes of scientists back you on this; can you cite, say, five articles by five different authors evaluating Price's claims, please?


Given that Price had no standing or respect in the scientific community(given such fake claims as the focal infection theory and many of his absurd claims re diet), it's a bit rich to challenge my own credentials(after all I don't claim to be a guru, unlike Price!). Every criticism of Price I make is derived from rather more competent scientists than Price ever was, and I do accept some of Price's findings(unsurprisingly, only those which have been independently corroborated by other more credible scientists).

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holisticdent.html

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-the-misinformation-of-barry-groves-and-weston-price.html

(Relevant excerpt from the above which explains why scientists don't take WP seriously:- "Weston Price and the Weston Price Foundation's claims about achieving good health on a diet rich in saturated fat are entirely without substance or merit. Weston Price himself did not painstakingly document the lifespan of these people; he was a dentist who just made a quick visit and jumped to simplistic conclusions claiming people were healthy by looking at their teeth. He ignored life expectancy, infant mortality, high rate of infection and many other confounding variables. Weston Price did not grasp the complexity of multi-factorial causation and this tradition is continued by his followers today. This in no way dismisses or makes less of the importance of Price's criticism of the dangers of sugar and other processed foods modern societies eat. "


I mean how can one take Price seriously when he spent very little time with each tribes he visited(other researchers can take years to study individual tribes), when he focused primarily on dental health as opposed to overall health and utterly ignored the high infant mortality, infection-rates and the low life expectancy etc. Then there's also Price's dodgy  claims re criminals and homosexuality and diet, since disproven as wild animals exhibit such behaviour even on raw diets:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior


As regards scientific evaluation of Price's work, Price never provided any genuine scientific data that could be properly evaluated by the scientific community. The only vaguely scientific experiment of WP's work was the Pottenger cat Study, which was flawed from the start as it assumed that the natural diet of a cat in the wild was cows' milk, a grave error. Here's beyondveg.com's rather faulty review of that study:-

http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1h.shtml

 which claims that cooked food is OK for cats as long as it's supplemented by taurine, showing that cooked foods are deficient! At any rate, if only Price had tried to provide us with further studies, but, sadly, most of his utterings amount to a lot of hearsay about native tribes, much of which has already been debunked.

Quote
You're now claiming that fetal alcohol syndrome was the reason Price saw deformed faces in every society he went to. Incredible. I'm sure you're aware of the hasty generalization fallacy, so I wonder why you continue to apply it.

I;m afraid you're actually the one who is generalising. I merely gave fetal alcohol syndrome as an example of the effects of alcohol abuse and certainly did NOT claim that alcohol was the sole reason for ill-health among native tribes, merely that it was one of them.



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" Ron Paul.

Offline pfw

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2009, 10:51:05 pm »
I note that not one of those links actually examined the Mongoloid idiot claim, thereby rendering your continued assertions in that regard moot.

Again, there is every reason to be skeptical of Price's conclusions. There is no reason whatsoever to claim that they are "dodgy", fraudulent or dishonest. Ascribing motive to incorrectness is unwarranted and irrational without significant proof. It simply does not follow on its own, and you have not provided any convincing reason for Price to spend years of his life compiling a giant pile of lies. Even assuming he was blinkered by a deeply held belief that natives were superior, it doesn't change the actual observational data. It only affects the weight of his conclusions.

I don't particularly disagree with one component of your claim, that Price should not be taken as gospel. No one should. However, your continued dismissal of anything you disagree with, and your continued assertion that this was active fraud and dishonesty are not well supported and not well constructed. For instance, you attack Price for making "dodgy" claims by citing a doctor (Furhman) who advocates an essentially vegetarian diet. Vegetarian?! What a liar and a fraud Furhman must be! What a dishonest charlatan! Why would you reference such a worthless, dodgy person?

Price's data is just that, data. He went around, took pictures of people's faces and teeth, and noted the striking difference between those eating their traditional diet and those eating the western diet of the time. That's virtually the entire substance of the book. He does not claim that natives had "perfect health". He claims that they had better health than their related contemporaries eating a western diet. Given the western diet of the time, this should be unsurprising and uncontroversial.

I did not take his claims of perfect childbirth, or the other random things he noted, as something intended to be believed as gospel. I read it as an observation or secondhand story being related in the notes. You seem to be taking it as some sort of intentional fraud intended to convince you of something - I did not get that impression at all. You are projecting your prejudice on to the text and then, apparently, believing it to be the only correct interpretation. There's no reason to be paranoid and no reason to ascribe a motive that tickles your superiority complex. Data just is, observations just are, and to call either fraudulent requires a whole hell of a lot more work than just saying "Well it is because I believe it so."

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2009, 05:34:33 pm »
I'm not surprised that there's no scientific evaluation of Price's absurd claim re removing Down's Syndrome via surgery. I mean, it's on a par with claims that Elvis is still alive etc. As regards Price's observations, his claims were, in some cases, so extravagant that they could not have been honest or even just mistaken.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2009, 09:20:26 pm »
Elvis is still alive; he just went home.
See MiB.

;)

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2009, 05:32:01 am »
It's a false analogy. Sure, surgery could fix(if only to some limited extent) a brain injury caused by an axe(if the axe didn't permanently harm certain crucial parts of the brain), but the evidence re Down's Syndrome shows unequivocally that the damage results from within the womb re damage to DNA and has nothing to do with increased pressure on the skull or suchlike during the organism's subsequent lifetime. The other aspect is that Down's Syndrome causes multiple health problems which are not solely related to just 1 or 2 glands, but are body-wide(due to the genetic influence), so any claims re a significant cure of major symptoms of Down's are clearly bogus.

What is, then, the mechanism for Down's? I'm not claiming it's a faulty skull, but you ARE claiming it's not.

Again, a brain injury by a faulty skull to the body is no different than from an axe, and if your genes build a faulty skull and you can fix it, then that's all there is.

If it is damage to glands, well then maybe the skull thing wouldn't do anything. But we do know that the skull is close to some glands, so maybe it would.

But unless you know what the 21st chromosome even does I don't think you're in a position to say that skull surgery would not correct a defect in it.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2009, 05:46:11 am »
The point re Down's is that there are multiple defects involved, thus making it clear that the brain isn't the only organ affected. Realigning the skull isn't going to do much re removing non-skull-related issues.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline wodgina

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2009, 01:41:07 pm »
I'm not surprised that there's no scientific evaluation of Price's absurd claim re removing Down's Syndrome via surgery. I mean, it's on a par with claims that Elvis is still alive etc. As regards Price's observations, his claims were, in some cases, so extravagant that they could not have been honest or even just mistaken.

Your the only one talking about curing Down's Syndrome though now your using the term removing.

The point re Down's is that there are multiple defects involved, thus making it clear that the brain isn't the only organ affected. Realigning the skull isn't going to do much re removing non-skull-related issues.

But the expansion surgery did  something to improve the symptoms of Down Syndrome for a short period, so please explain where has WAP being fraudulent/dodgy?



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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2009, 04:48:43 pm »
But the expansion surgery did  something to improve the symptoms of Down Syndrome for a short period, so please explain where has WAP being fraudulent/dodgy?

We only have Price's word for it with no suitably independent verification. But the clincher is that Price made claims about massive (mental and physical)improvements within a remarkably short period, thus lending a great deal of credence to claims of fraud.Incidentally, Price appears to have made a claim that the surgery went wrong and the symptoms came back but were sorted out permanently when the surgical appliance was fixed. So his claim did not relate to a temporary fix, making his claim even less likely.


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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2009, 09:26:15 pm »
Tyler, what if it's true?  What if it's all true?  I have no reason to believe that Dr. Price was lying about that case.  Other things, he may have covered up the truth (particularly about the cultural practices/beliefs of some of the tribes he studied...these were brutal savages, in many cases, cannibals, etc.), but I see no reason for him to lie about this.  I'm not saying that you would see this kind of improvement in every Down's Syndrome case.  My guess is that this was not the only Down's case that he tried this on, but was the one that responded the best to the treatment, and he was using this to show the potential problems with narrow palates in general. 

My reasons for thinking this are that not all Down's Syndrome patients are below average intelligence.  Here's a link that shows that.  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Burke_(actor)  That's Chris Burke, who most Americans around my age are familiar with.  He's not the only Down's patient with above-average intelligence.  My guess is that, in a few Down's cases, extreme improvements happen with palate-widening techniques, but in others (for instance, I doubt that Chris Burke would see much increase in his intelligence), there would be very little improvement. 

Here's a quote about the the mental abilities of Down's patients from Wikipedia:

"Cognitive development in children with Down syndrome is quite variable. It is not currently possible at birth to predict the capabilities of any individual reliably, nor are the number or appearance of physical features predictive of future ability. The identification of the best methods of teaching each particular child ideally begins soon after birth through early intervention programs.[9] Since children with Down syndrome have a wide range of abilities, success at school can vary greatly, which underlines the importance of evaluating children individually."

I think it may be what Dr. Price doesn't say here that really is telling.  He certainly would have had no trouble finding Down's patients to work on.  He was the premier dentist in the United States, the first head of what became the American Dental Association.  I'm sure many parents of Down's children would have been more than willing to let him try this type of operation on their child.  He doesn't mention any other cases, though, which really makes me think that this surgery only helped some patients to any real degree. 

Of course, he may have been lying like a rug.  I don't care, I'm just stating what I think MAY actually be going on. :)

Offline wodgina

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2009, 12:26:20 pm »
We only have Price's word for it with no suitably independent verification. But the clincher is that Price made claims about massive (mental and physical)improvements within a remarkably short period, thus lending a great deal of credence to claims of fraud.Incidentally, Price appears to have made a claim that the surgery went wrong and the symptoms came back but were sorted out permanently when the surgical appliance was fixed. So his claim did not relate to a temporary fix, making his claim even less likely.

There's plenty of anecdotal reports of improvement of conditions from palate expansion. If fed the right diet a palate grows broad so that the tongue fits in the mouth correctly and the nasal pasages are broad. This allows the person to have a correct swallow action, breathe through the nose to warm/humidify the air and calm down the central nervous system.

This is quite different compared to a kid with a narrow palate who is ADHD, mouth breather (asthma allergies)always gasping for breath, always sick, crooked teeth, retracted mandible, head positioned forward.

Many dentists use Orthodontic appliances similiar to Prices to broaden the palate and relieve these conditions. So we don't just have Prices word for it these guys are carrying on Prices work doing similar procedures but with better knowledge and equipment.






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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2009, 05:11:14 pm »
There's plenty of anecdotal reports of improvement of conditions from palate expansion. If fed the right diet a palate grows broad so that the tongue fits in the mouth correctly and the nasal pasages are broad. This allows the person to have a correct swallow action, breathe through the nose to warm/humidify the air and calm down the central nervous system.

I would agree re an improvement in mood being possible via surgery, I just draw the line at believing in the kind of dramatic cures Price claimed re this Down's Syndrome example.
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Offline RawZi

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2009, 12:44:57 pm »
As regards scientific evaluation of Price's work, Price never provided any genuine scientific data that could be properly evaluated by the scientific community. The only vaguely scientific experiment of WP's work was the Pottenger cat Study, which was flawed from the start as it assumed that the natural diet of a cat in the wild was cows' milk, a grave error. Here's beyondveg.com's rather faulty review of that study:-

http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1h.shtml

 which claims that cooked food is OK for cats as long as it's supplemented by taurine, showing that cooked foods are deficient! At any rate, if only Price had tried to provide us with further studies, but, sadly, most of his utterings amount to a lot of hearsay about native tribes, much of which has already been debunked.

    From what I'm reading, raw milk from everyday (even grass grazed) cows specifically of all things is one of the few RAF's that have practically no taurine.
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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2010, 08:33:23 pm »
No one has yet seemed to tie the whole Down's Syndrome kid thing together yet.  RawKyle was on the right track when he said changing the skull shape may affect "glands".  In particular, the pituitary gland is sitting right on top of the sphenoid bone, which is connected to the maxilla.  Apparently the maxilla expansion did make a difference on the pituitary, because WAP said that the kid suddenly grew facial hair and pubic hair.  You can claim he may have exaggerated on behavioral changes, but on such an indisputable physical change, he would have had to either discovered something amazing, or be a flat out liar.  The kid was 16 years old-- a little late if you ask me.

Another theory WAP had about the kid was that the continual mouth breathing contributed to his retardation problem.  I can't remember if he specifically said "lack of oxygen", but this is the claim of recent carriers of WAP's work like Raymond Silkman, as seen here: http://www.westonaprice.org/Is-it-Mental-or-is-it-Dental.html.  Raymond Silkman claims the nose releases small amounts of nitric oxide when breathed through, and this helps us absorb oxygen.  Don't know how true it is-- he also says lack of oxygen causes black circles under the eyes, but I've been told by a doctor that this is wrong.  There is also another book on the seemingly ill-effects of mouth breathing called "Shut your mouth and save your life", which predates WAP by about 100 years, as reported by the WAPF journal.  This all seems plausible to me, and is another plausible mechanism by which fixing a person's skull could drastically change one's mental ability.  "Shut your mouth" text is here:  http://members.westnet.com.au/pkolb/indians.pdf.

And yes, just to reiterate, WAP did not claim to "cure" the boy-- he specifically said that he was drastically improved, but still retarded.  But, he went from laying on the floor, playing with blocks and talking to no-one, to being trusted to run errands by himself, taking several trains, and also "having an interest in other people".  In fact, he became a "sex pervert" and had to be institutionalized in the end-- another indication his pituitary received a massive wake up call, besides him growing like a foot.  This detail is oddly edited out of my print-copy and can be seen here:  http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/price19.html

Also TylerDurden, I believe Price had nothing to do with the Pottenger cat study.

Also, I don't believe that WAP was "not taken seriously" in his day.  Regardless of what you read on the Quackwatch page, this is what Dr. Ron has to say:

"He kept meticulous records and photographic accounts of all he saw. His work shows that nearly everyone in traditional cultures had all 32 teeth, perfectly fitting into the dental arch, perfectly formed, as long as the people had no access to refined foods. Eating refined foods invariably caused dental decay and systemic diseases, and in the next generation, crooked and crowded teeth.
Price collected over 10,000 samples of native foods. He sent them back to America for analysis in his laboratories. Price was a pioneer in developing assays for vitamins A and D in the 1920's. He wrote a textbook on dentistry that was on every United States naval vessel. His studies of problems associated with root canals were rediscovered 70 years later, and became the basis for the recent book Root Canal Cover-Up. His articles appeared in dental journals throughout the twenties and thirties. His classic book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, was required reading in Harvard anthropology classes for many years. "
http://www.drrons.com/weston-price-traditional-nutrition-5.htm

While I'm picking apart everything that you said, I might as well mention that WAP photographed and praised many natives with teeth that look "worn out", instead of dodging the subject like you said.  The teeth may have been worn down considerably (I don't know the reason why), but Price still upheld them as examples of good health because they did NOT have cavities or decay, and had fully formed dental arches.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2010, 09:17:18 pm »
The quackwatch article was very thorough and pointed out that Weston-Price had invented a theory, the focal infection theory which was later debunked completely within the scientific community(hardly a case of establishing a good reputation):-

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holisticdent.html

And given numerous dodgy scientific practices such as prefrontal lobotomy etc. at the time, holding Dr Price up as a paragon of 1930s medicine isn't exactly an endorser.

As for the claims re Down's Syndrome, like I said the claims re recovery(albeit supposedly  "temporary")are so implausibly extreme that the most likely explanation is that Weston-Price was an outright fraud as opposed to just being scientifically incompetent.

As for the teeth of HGs, quackwatch makes an excellent point in that HGs were subject to feast-and-famine, didn't indulge in sweets like settled humans - if they ate grains it was in fermented form, and usually in small to nonexistent amounts etc.

As such, I'm not terribly worried re this discussion. I realise that in the RVAF diet community, Weston-Price is held up as some sort of nigh-infallible cult deity figure, but his claims are derived ultimately from dodgy data, false conclusions and the ridiculous "Noble Savage" theory, which is why he isn't taken seriously in scientific circles.
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alphagruis

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2010, 02:53:14 am »
The quackwatch article was very thorough and pointed out that Weston-Price had invented a theory, the focal infection theory which was later debunked completely within the scientific community(hardly a case of establishing a good reputation):-

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holisticdent.html


Stephen Barret who wrote this article or quackwatch in general are fairly often plain wrong or biased. Unfortunately.

Tyler, since you seem to believe in the importance of food enzymes (or raw food or other topics related to raw paleo) just look at what they tell us about them. ;)

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/PhonyAds/mp.html

     
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 03:02:15 am by alphagruis »

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2010, 04:07:10 am »
umm...once again the kid didn't recover not even temporarily. Why even use the word recover? It's hard to debate with your confusing use of language/logic.
How does feast and famine poduce broad palates, perfect teeth?
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2010, 06:35:35 am »
Tyler, since you seem to believe in the importance of food enzymes (or raw food or other topics related to raw paleo) just look at what they tell us about them. ;)

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/PhonyAds/mp.html

  I wasn't suggesting that quackwatch was 100% right on all issues. That is physically impossible, after all. The stuff they write re Weston-Price, has a greater ring of truth than other articles on that website, that's all.
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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2010, 06:38:43 am »
umm...once again the kid didn't recover not even temporarily. Why even use the word recover? It's hard to debate with your confusing use of language/logic.
How does feast and famine poduce broad palates, perfect teeth?

 if symptoms didn't genuinely improve in a permanent fashion, one could cite any temporary improvement as being merely illusory and the result of something else. For example, a retarded child could suddenly become very sexual due to earlier or later puberty than usual, as applicable etc.


As for feast-and-famine, the idea is that teeth get worn through eating, so eating less often wears down the teeth less. An example are the old-style Eskimoes who Stefansson described as having teeth worn down to the roots because they frequently ate raw fish which had been contaminated with grit/sand of various kinds.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 07:09:40 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2010, 01:04:52 pm »

As for the claims re Down's Syndrome, like I said the claims re recovery(albeit supposedly  "temporary")are so implausibly extreme that the most likely explanation is that Weston-Price was an outright fraud as opposed to just being scientifically incompetent.



I still say that the kid was probably one of quite a few Down's syndrome patients that Dr. Price tried this on, and he was probably the one who responded the "best".

Dr. Price specifically chose not to mention that many of the groups he studied ate the organ meats raw. I assume he did this because he either found it disgusting, thought it dangerous, or wanted to make sure people didn't get turned off to native diets simply because they would be disgusted by reports of eating raw organ meats.  I am betting on the third of those 3 reasons, mainly.

So, yes, I think Dr. Price deliberately withheld information. I don't think he ever outright lied, but definitely he withheld information.  He was trying to use his position of high respect in the dental community to spread better nutritional practices, though. Not that it excuses it, but I think that's a big part of the reason. I think he may have assumed that he'd lose credibility with the medical community and the general public if he started talking about eating raw meat, organs, and fish.

I think he probably believed that it was better to spread the practice of eating cooked high-quality food than to let people keep eating the SAD of the day.  I think he was right about that, too.

As far as grains go, I think he may have been legitimately confused about grain-eating.  There were a number of groups he studied that consumed grains who still had excellent teeth, like the Peruvians.  Of course, their good teeth were probably due to the extremely high-quality seafoods they ate, plus the high quality of the soil that their crops grew in, but...I can definitely see how he would get temporarily confused by that data.


alphagruis

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Re: The dodgy Weston Price
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2010, 06:02:22 pm »
  I wasn't suggesting that quackwatch was 100% right on all issues. That is physically impossible, after all. The stuff they write re Weston-Price, has a greater ring of truth than other articles on that website, that's all.

What's funny is that they are essentially 100% wrong about Weston Price and almost 100% right about the importance of food enzymes in digestion.

Well, nothing new actually, we definitely disagree here.

 

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