Ramblings of a madman...

[William]

Just an offhand thought here but anyone else think the pemmican might be causing a more rapid die-off of my Candida and that's why I got the way I did?
Truth be told I'd be happy if this was the case because it would be working towards a goal as opposed to avoiding hurting myself but I don't know how to tell.

Bingo! I think that's it.
Candida is notoriously stubborn, and even after years of raw mostly paleo, it was only after I went strictly raw zero carb/pemmican/high fat that my tongue lost it's fur coat.
Animal fat is supposed to be a super candida killer.

This does not explain why my gut is so talkative after eating raw fat anything including pemmican.
Any internal communication theorists out there?

[PaleoPhil]

Maybe some people are more sensitive to the Maillard products in rendered suet, whereas others like you, William, are not? Perhaps the rendered suet is easier for you to digest than raw? I think DelFuego may have made that claim, but don't quote me on it. These dual factors could explain why some people seem to do better on tallow than raw suet whereas for others it's the reverse. It may not be too critical either way, because people can just eat it whichever way works best for them in the short run while striving to eat it all-raw in the longer run. That's what I've been doing.

[djr_81]

that's intriguing as i also am dealing with some candida symptoms. i dont know though, that sounds kinda far fetched. why would cooked fat be better at detoxing? it itself has to get detoxed so i can't see how it would help... worth looking into though

Saturated fat is supposed to be very anti-fungal/parasitic as has been mentioned on the forum a number of the times in the past (the comment that comes to mind is Good Samaritan's endorsement of Coconut Oil to flush Candida).
The only reasons I can think of that the rendered fat would be better to fight Candida are as follows:
1) Rendering removes the moisture from both the fat and the lean. This has the benefit of extending the "shelf life" of pemmican exponentially from the raw meat and fat by depriving pathogens of a medium to incubate. This lowers the stress on our body during digestion so we have more resources to fight underlying issues.
2) Maybe what's anti-fungal in the fat is more available to fight Candida that is present since the cell wall was broken down. We don't need to break it down internally so it all hits the Candida at once instead of a timed dose effect.

I had the inspiration for the question when I read this post by Delfuego on Charles' forum.

[djr_81]

This does not explain why my gut is so talkative after eating raw fat anything including pemmican.
Any internal communication theorists out there?

No theories yet but I frequently have the same issues. I used to get stomach noises like this when I'd eat a food I was allergic to but I don't seem to get other symptoms of food allergies. It's also not a definite that my stomach will make any noises.

Bingo! I think that's it.
Candida is notoriously stubborn, and even after years of raw mostly paleo, it was only after I went strictly raw zero carb/pemmican/high fat that my tongue lost it's fur coat.
Animal fat is supposed to be a super candida killer.

Out of curiosity William, once you switched how long did it take for you to feel like the Candida was gone (or at least as far gone as it'll get)?
My biggest fear is that the underlying Candida has been the catalyst for my food allergies over the years. I want to squash it as thoroughly and efficiently as possible to prevent further damage. I have no problems eating just meat and drinking water for the rest of my life but I don't want this solution taken from me because of a stupid yeast overgrowth. 

[PaleoPhil]

...
2) Maybe what's anti-fungal in the fat is more available to fight Candida that is present since the cell wall was broken down. We don't need to break it down internally so it all hits the Candida at once instead of a timed dose effect.

I had the inspiration for the question when I read this post by Delfuego on Charles' forum.

That at least makes intuitive sense--similar in concept to taking concentrated extracts from herbs to make the more potent modern medicines.

[William]

Out of curiosity William, once you switched how long did it take for you to feel like the Candida was gone (or at least as far gone as it'll get)?
My biggest fear is that the underlying Candida has been the catalyst for my food allergies over the years. I want to squash it as thoroughly and efficiently as possible to prevent further damage. I have no problems eating just meat and drinking water for the rest of my life but I don't want this solution taken from me because of a stupid yeast overgrowth. 

It was quick, IIRC a few weeks, but that was after years of raw paleo.
And it is really gone from my mouth - that's the only indication that I had it other than mood, and shall stay gone as long as I stay off the carbs.
I ate cherries, peaches and blueberries last summer, maybe that has something to do with gut conversation.

[djr_81]

It was quick, IIRC a few weeks, but that was after years of raw paleo.
And it is really gone from my mouth - that's the only indication that I had it other than mood, and shall stay gone as long as I stay off the carbs.

That's great news.
I've been ZC since the beginning of August. Raw ZC since mid-August. I think I'll keep my fats as high as possible for the next few months and leave my remaining vacation time for the space between Christmas and New Years. I'll do a 100% pemmican meal plan for 10 days or so following Christmas Day and see if I can push through the "die-off"-like symptoms and find some source of clarity for the new year.
I'm excited to see how this plays out.

[van]

As far as separating the oil from the fat tissues via rendering,  You might like to try the process I have written about where I food process fat chunks til they are mostly creamy with some remaining pieces showing.  The flatter into a think pancake onto the sides of a ceramic sloping bowl and place into pot with lid with water about 115 f.  Let it sit for about ten to fifteen minutes.  I monitor the temp of the fat.  It never gets above 105 and usually only goes to 100 f.  Have of it will separate, leaving a golden yellow oil, floating on top of the remaining fat material.  Of which, I kind of chew and separate the tissues and 'spit' out.   I just can't get myself to heat it to the 170 f that delfuego or the 200f that others are using to render the fat.  Plus they are using heat for extended periods of time. 

[djr_81]

As far as separating the oil from the fat tissues via rendering,  You might like to try the process I have written about where I food process fat chunks til they are mostly creamy with some remaining pieces showing.  The flatter into a think pancake onto the sides of a ceramic sloping bowl and place into pot with lid with water about 115 f.  Let it sit for about ten to fifteen minutes.  I monitor the temp of the fat.  It never gets above 105 and usually only goes to 100 f.  Have of it will separate, leaving a golden yellow oil, floating on top of the remaining fat material.  Of which, I kind of chew and separate the tissues and 'spit' out.   I just can't get myself to heat it to the 170 f that delfuego or the 200f that others are using to render the fat.  Plus they are using heat for extended periods of time. 

I think I will give this a shot Van. I've done similar by putting fat in a ziploc bags and simmering in water but I like your way better.
----------------------
I know some people on this forum feel that systemic yeast issues and particularly Candida aren't as common as some make them out to be but based on my own personal experiences as well as those of many I know I think it's a much more pervasive problem than many realize.
Between the overuse of antibiotics as a cure-all rather than a last resort and the readily accessed starch/sugar content of the SAD our bodies become breeding grounds for opportunistic parasites such as Candida.
This brings me to a thought I had last night. Could many of the adaptation problems people experience going ZC be less from keto-adaption and more from toxins released by miscellaneous parasites as they die off? A quicker "cold turkey" approach would yield a quicker die-off and worse symptoms. A slower approach would have a less severe reaction. Just a thought I've been mulling over.

[PaleoPhil]

I don't know. When we did an unscientific poll, the results weren't conclusive in any direction.

[djr_81]

I've been eating the lamb fat I had in the freezer (Slanker's Grassfed) to supplement the grassfed beef chuck I've got left over. I don't know if it's the fact that it's lamb fat as opposed to beef, that it's intramuscular as opposed to suet, or that it's been frozen for over a month but I'm not a big fan. It's very grainy and dry. I can't wait for fresh beef suet on Wednesday.

I've also noticed this week that when I eat a really big meal (1 1/2+ pounds of food) I get an almost empty hungry feeling in my stomach which I don't get if I eat less. Any thoughts? I was wondering if my stomach acid is bogging down on the volume but I don't know why it'd feel empty.

[djr_81]

...And today I have gas, a less digested stool, and very slight pain in the kidney area. All fairly clear signs from my past that I have a problem with something recently ingested (and the only variable is the lamb fat). I'll be leaving the lamb fat alone for a while and try it again in the future to see if it effects me the same.

[djr_81]

I've had an issue arise over the past few weeks and I thought I'd ask for any incite on it.

I used to have a fairly noticeable case of Tinea Versicolor. In the past when I cut way back on sugars and/or carb dense foods my skin got much better. Invariably I would go back to a higher carb level due to energy needs and the Tinea would return to a higher density. It's actually been bad enough at times that when I'd consume a really big rush of carbs after being clean for a while (like a night of drinking alcohol) it would flare up to a reddish/lavenderish/grey and then settle down after a couple days. I've been fairly confident lumping this in with systemic Candida issues, whether they are two separate strains or the skin issue is just a mis-self-diagnosed offshoot of the Candida Albicans.
The Tinea, while visually looking horrible, didn't cause me any issues unless I either ate high-carb foods or it was really hot out (it could it then).

Not long after starting my current WOE I noticed the Tinea was lightening up which is a good sign that something I was doing was helping my body.
Then a few weeks ago, as I started upping my fat intake more and more, I noticed my arms and chest itching a lot. Most of the itching follows within the first hour of eating a meal but I'll occasionally get a really bad itch out of the blue hours after eating so it's not entirely dependent on food intake. I've been taking this in stride hoping things would start getting better but it's been getting worse.
Then this morning I was taking a shower and the hot water made my back REALLY itchy. I started scratching and this just opened the floodgates for my whole upper body to start itching like hell. I must have spent 10 minutes scratching at myself before it subsided. I've actually got a couple raised red marks/scratches on my back, chest, and forearms from how vigorously I was scratching.
Here's where I need input. Could this be a symptom of yeast die-off or should I be getting more concerned and actively looking for what's not right? It's controllable for the most part at the moment but if the shower is a good indicator this could be hellish come next summer.

[William]

I would bet that it is yeast die-off, so wait and see.

[djr_81]

Nothing exceptional to report on my progress lately.

The last beef primal chuck I got had a fair amount of fat on it but I didn't get any extra trimmings as they hadn't saved any (even though I asked).
Started out with a higher fat intake at the beginning of the two weeks and made my way down to less fat/higher protein at the end of the two weeks. By the end I was needing to eat more and more frequently (2 large or 2 large & 1 small meals). I also found I got occasional headaches if I put off eating for too long.
I picked up my new primal cut Wednesday night and it came with a bunch of fat trimmings.
Of particular note with my first meal of higher fat content I had a resurgence in my Orthostatic Hypotension. I've had 2 or 3 light-headed moments upon standing since then but none today. Everything else is fine especially the sated feeling after eating which isn't as prevalent when I eat just beef chuck and no supplemental fat.

Anecdotally, I managed to get a case of Poison Ivy the end of last week.
I had some gloves I'd used when moving rocks this spring in an area loaded with Poison Ivy. I put them on last week without thinking and had some itching on my hands that night.
Since that night I've had the itching spread to other areas (from scratching while asleep in bed). So far though there's only been the occasional tiny bump and not the full-fledged fluid filled blister I always get with Poison Ivy. This is the first time I've ever had my body handle it so well and I thought I'd mention it in case others have noticed similar experiences.

[djr_81]

Thought I'd post up my findings on my urine output & water intake since I just read about Lex's Kidney Stone problems (best wishes on a quick recovery Lex ).
I used to drink at least 4 16.9oz bottles of water a day, oftentimes drinking up to 8 or 10 bottles. My urine was usually clear but also got a slight yellow color on the lighter water consumption days. I also had an odd scent which would come up occasionally that I never did track down the cause (it was very slightly sweet maple syrupy scented mixed with almost a cooked turkey scent-weird enough to concern me but I couldn't find similar experiences online so wrote it off).
My thirst and subsequent water consumption were greatly diminished when I changed to a raw meat/fat diet. At that point I dropped down to 2 or 3 bottles a day with maybe 6 as a peak and that was when riding my bike or running in 90*F+ weather. I've not been doing any heavy exercising the past month and a half due to the cold weather (I haven't developed the increased cold resistance others have noted, yet) so my consumption is usually 2-3 bottles a day.
When I changed my WOE my urine changed to slightly more yellow than before but still not overtly so to worry me and no cloudiness.
I have noticed in the past month a very interesting phenomenon. As my bi-month food supply runs low I invariably eat more protein and less supplemental fat. This results in a lighter urine color. Once I get the next order and go back to higher fat and less protein my urine gets more yellow to it. I'm not sure if it's imperfect usage of ketones or another culprit but interesting nonetheless.

Another somewhat related observation;
I had cut the additional salting out of my meat for the last week as so many say it's bad for the body and I've noticed an emptier feeling in the stomach (and being hungry again sooner) after consumption of a salted meal.
Last night I got an overwhelming desire for some of my pemmican. I debated with myself as what I've got stored is made with Lamb's fat which doesn't sit great in my stomach. I figured it must be a craving for the salt as I'm getting more than adequate fat and lean from my regular meals. Sure enough I put a little sea salt in my palm, licked it, and it tasted sweeter and more right than normal. Had a bit more this way and then tried a few small pieces of pemmican. The pemmican didn't feel right in my mouth, sat heavy once it went down my throat, and left me feeling a bit nauseous. I just salted a bit of red meat and ate that instead and all cravings went away.
I think this proves that at least for me right now I need some supplemental mineral salts I'm not getting in my meat or fat. Rather than approach it as I have before and salt my meat, which seems to have a negative effect on my body, I'm going to add a bit to water throughout the day and supplement that way. I also plan on doing it with E-Lyte which I've had a lot of success with over the years unless others have better suggestions. I like the E-lyte better than sea salt because it's got 374mg Potassium, 178mg Sodium, and 130mg Magnesium in one serving whereas I'll be getting way too much sodium from sea salt versus the other two. Still need to figure out calcium. Maybe I'll use a rasp on some bones as mentioned here on the site before.

[djr_81]

I had my first taste of raw pastured chicken today.
My wife and I placed an order with Slankers so she could try some healthier meats outside what she normally eats (she was mostly interested in their pork). Besides the fair quantity of pork we ordered we also got some boneless chicken breasts for her. She was making them this afternoon so I sliced off a chunk and gave it a taste.
It wasn't bad but I couldn't eat it daily like my beef. It was much milder, with a faint sweetness. Had a bit of a bad taste at the back of the throat afterwards that I didn't like. I also got a bit of a sore throat ~20 minutes after eating it but I'd have to test the meat again before I could definitely implicate it as the cause.
I'll be trying one of the pork chops over the weekend I think.

[djr_81]

I've been discussing my diet with family for a while now and everyone's been cool with it. It's more of an intriguing concept rather than a big scary taboo to them.
The one big concern has been vitamins & minerals which Ive been able to assuage with the information I've found on here among other sites. The only trace mineral I've not been able to guarantee I'm getting an adequate supply of is Iodine as I can't eat seafood.
Last night I said "screw it" and had 2 pieces of dried Kombu seaweed which I've supplemented in the past with when concerned about Iodine.This was the first "cheat" I've had in 3 months (food allergies will make it easy to develop that willpower) and it didn't go so well.
The Kombu tasted good, somewhat sweet and a good salt flavor, but dried my mouth out quickly. After a couple minutes I needed to drink a lot more water because my throat was getting very dry. I did not develop any further issues last night.
This morning my stomach started grumbling after drinking a glass of water. I had the urge to go to the bathroom many times today but not much came out. About an hour ago the diarrhea began and I expect it to last until at least tomorrow. I've also had a detached and unfocused mental state all day which should last at least the next two days if it runs the course my body has in the past.
Truth be told the seaweed, nor the peace of mind about iodine, is not worth it.

How much iodine do others notice is needed to avoid deficiency?
I imagine hunter/gatherers in times past who were landlocked, such as plains indians, wouldn't have a source for much iodine. Maybe I don't have anything whatsoever to worry about.

[TylerDurden]

There's enough iodine in good-quality 100% grassfed meats/eggs from pastured chickens for you not to have to worry. Interesting that you have a food-intolerance towards raw seafood, that's highly unusual(not so with cooked seafood, of course).

[djr_81]

No, I have multiple food allergies to seafood which have shown up on blood testing and subsequent self-trials (albeit cooked). These include shrimp, lobster, crab, clams, mussels, scallops, etc.
I was not had blood testing done on fish (I'm not sure why the full panel the lab I used does not include them but it doesn't) but I've discovered over the past few years that cooked fish upsets my stomach to varying degrees. I've not found any that does not upset it at all.
I also have issues with cooked eggs (via blood tests and self-testing elimination). Some day I'll give fertilized raw eggs a shot but not in the near future.

If the muscle and organ meats will give me what I need then I've got no concerns. I just wasn't sure they did.

[TylerDurden]

I meant that allergies to cooked seafood are common but not necessarily to raw seafood(though given my experiences with dairy I'm sure there are plenty like you with issues with both raw and cooked seafood).

[djr_81]

I realise the hydrochloric acid is primarily for protein digestion but do you think low stomach acid may be an issue for you too?

Nope. I've tried Betain HCL three times over the last two months and experienced the burn after 1-2 capsules each time. I'm definitely making adequate HCL acid.
Incidentally my wife needed from 6-8 capsules each time to feel the burn. Still trying to gently remind her of this fact when she gets indigestion but I'm trying to not push too hard as it's her body.

That sounds like evidence enough that your HCl levels are strong djr.  Glad to hear it!

It sounds as though your wife would greatly benefit though.  If it helps, I'd be happy for you to tell her of my own experiences.  I still wasn't getting a burn upon taking TEN high strength HCl tablets originally and have been now taking 10 with all meals for the last 6 months or more (I couldn't afford anymore than this!).  I'm now down to taking 6-8 with meals and, as part of my vlc/zc regime and to save money, I'm now only eating one meal a day.  My digestion has been observed as hugely improved!  I no longer suffer with terrible gas/reflux (a lifelong problem!) and no longer have undigested food in stools.  My strength and general improvement in all areas is very likely as much to do with my improved digestion (thanks to HCl) as it is to my diet.  Of course, you're right that it's your wife's body but please relay my positive experiences to her.

I felt my journal might be a better place to respond to this so as to not clutter another thread up.

I'm glad to say that watching how I'm doing eating this way (as well as the marked increase in my immune system) has been slowly influencing my wife's diet for the better.
She's had a bad stomach since a teenager but never made the conscious connection with diet until she met me and saw my food allergies. As a teen and into her 20s she'd have diarrhea for weeks or months, lots of heavy acne breakouts, steady weight gain, and other problems.
After we started dating and began sharing dinners cooked so I could eat them her symptoms began to greatly subside. She still had flareups but these happened when we were spending time apart or if she'd binge on fast food.
Over time we started tracking the offenders and as we remove each from her diet she feels better. So far we've cut gluten grains, rice, corn, beans, celery, most fruits with skins (peaches, plums, apples, etc-although I question if this is something they treat with) and tomato. I still questioning some foods that I note reaction to (Oranges, Dairy) but I'm letting her make the correlations as her behavior will be moderated best if she does the changes for herself.
This brings us to the biggest step forward eating RAF. Since a kid she's had a thing for eating a bit of ground meat. It'd only be a small piece when making meatballs but she's always enjoyed that. Maybe a month ago I bought some fresh ground grassfed beef, she tried it, and she enjoyed it (not as much as grainfed but I think that's normal if you still eat predominantly grainfed meat). Last week I was eating my dinner of beef and suet cubes and she asked to try a piece of beef. She not only enjoyed it but loved it and ate 2 more pieces. A couple nights later she did the same thing.
She's still extremely fat-phobic due to being very overweight and worrying about how quickly a high fat diet could be dangerous to her if we're mistaken with how the body really utilizes fats and carbs. As time goes by she's slowly quieting her fears of fat but it's still going to be a long time before I get her to eat a chunk of raw fat.

I'm already set on my current path and doing great. Now it's about sharing the benefits with her.

[PaleoPhil]

Boy, that's great news overall. Congrats!

She might like raw bison or venison better, as they don't have as strong a taste as grassfed beef. However, if cost is a major issue, then she might be better off trying to develop a taste for the beef.

[djr_81]

She might like raw bison or venison better, as they don't have as strong a taste as grassfed beef. However, if cost is a major issue, then she might be better off trying to develop a taste for the beef.

Her uncle is on to deer number 5 or 6 this season (he'll probably get only one or two more since he vastly prefers bow hunting to a gun; too many idiots out when it's gun season) so we'll have no problems whatsoever getting deer meat. Unfortunately (depending on how you look at it) the wild deer we got from his last is kind of mild raw so she may end up preferring the beef anyways.
I can give Bison a shot as well but it'll have to be a small amount. I have no desire to eat it (the taste does nothing for me) so only want to get what she'll try.

The big thing is getting her to embrace the raw fat.

[PaleoPhil]

Yeah, I bought some ground red deer meat that was way too bland for me recently. Not at all like the gray-black meat venison I normally get. What species is the latter? I'm guessing white-tailed deer.