Ramblings of a madman...

[djr_81]

Yeah, I bought some ground red deer meat that was way too bland for me recently. Not at all like the gray-black meat venison I normally get. What species is the latter? I'm guessing white-tailed deer.

Yup, white tail. I think it's the only indigenous deer in this area.
The odd thing is some deer in the past has been fairly "gamey" but this seems much more bland. I'm thinking it might just be that I've acclimated to the taste of grassfed beef chuck so something like deer now tastes milder.

[djr_81]

Another month without much ado hence no posts. It seems as if this is just the right W.O.E. for me, at least for now.

On a slightly down note I picked up my latest "grassfed" chuck Wednesday night and butchered it yesterday evening. Had a large meal afterwards and immediately starting feeling ill. I developed a stuffy nose and sore throat right away with a burning in the back of my throat that came on a bit later. This morning was no better and the acid-reflux was horrendous. I was also very gassy for the first time in months. Just not a good way to end my workweek.

The market I buy my meat from had purchased a grassfed animal from another farm this week and that was the problem. I was suspicious when I got the bill for the primal cut and it was 59lbs as opposed to the normal 35-40. Animals don't get that much bigger on the same diet within miles of each other. The only other possibility is growth hormones but I doubt they'd effect me to this level.
I called up tonight and complained; they'll be giving me a large discount on my next order. I'm also getting confirmation that the animal is from the right farm each time I order from now on.
I also placed an order with Slankers for next week so I just need to make it through another 6 days on reserves and I'm good. I've been craving organ meats anyways so this is a blessing I guess. They're out of liver though.
Now I just need to pick up a cheap chest freezer and I'll be set to deal with stupid stuff like this in the future.

On the healing front I've not eaten a thing today as I've been trying to get my body to right itself.
I have drank close to 3/4 of a gallon of water (with a bit of sea salt) in the last 2 hours in an attempt to purge this horrible feeling in my gut/throat. I don't care which way it goes I just want it out.
I'm debating eating some fat tonight (it's all I've got defrosted) as I am pretty hungry but I'm probably going to just hold out until tomorrow.

[djr_81]

Yup, white tail. I think it's the only indigenous deer in this area.
The odd thing is some deer in the past has been fairly "gamey" but this seems much more bland. I'm thinking it might just be that I've acclimated to the taste of grassfed beef chuck so something like deer now tastes milder.

I had received two packages of this deer meat. I'm not sure if both were the same deer though.
The first, which were steaks, tasted kind of bland.
The second, which were smaller muscle groups to be ground for burgers, tasted tons better. Fairly gamey and delicious.

[PaleoPhil]

Actually gray-black was wrong. I got some more of the white-tailed venison and it is darker red, not gray. The sausage is gray (probably due to the casing or to something added to it), so that's probably what I was thinking of. It is interesting that the white-tailed deer meat is darker red and a bit more flavorful than the red deer meat, though. I'm noticing that even the white-tail deer meat is tasting blander to me, though, and grassfed beef is tasting pretty good, so I think I'm also getting used to gamier flavors.

[djr_81]

Well, that's a fairly clear sign that I can't eat grainfed meat even in a time of crisis.

I drank close to a gallon of water Friday afternoon. Surprisingly I didn't vomit any or get diarrhea which was the intent. I just wanted to purge myself clean quickly but I guess my body wasn't up for it.

I ate the meat Thursday night. Immediately following the meal I got a stuff nose and sore throat.
Friday I awoke with a stuffy nose, sore throat, and bad heartburn. As the day wore on I the heartburn got worse and worse.
Saturday the stuffy nose was quite a bit better & the sore throat was almost completely gone. The heartburn was still there but in a diminished form.
Sunday I no longer had a stuffy nose or sore throat but still had remnants of the heartburn. The heartburn is basically gone today but after eating my two meals I did have a little more forceful "stop" which is reminiscent of the burn.

I don't know what other people's experiences are or if there's been any studying behind it but this very clearly confirms, IMO, the carryover of prey diet into it's meat. I have a very strong immuno-reaction to corn (and soy) and the grainfed meat triggered a very similar reaction whereas grassfed works great in my diet.

[TylerDurden]

Yes, this reaction to grainfed meat seems quite common on RVAF diets. I'll mention it on rawpaleodiet.com when I next add my articles. I wonder if all people allergic to red meat are really only allergic to grainfed meat. That is, I've yet to hear from people who've been specifically allergic to grassfed meat.

[djr_81]

My latest Slanker's order shows up tomorrow and I couldn't be happier. I've gone through just about all of my grassfed beef and deer stores in the freezer tiding me over.
I had a big bag defrosting overnight on the counter but when I opened it this morning I was concerned. After the last complication with grainfed I've discovered there's a distinctive smell (and flavor) to grainfed meat. This bag gave me pause as it smelled wrong so I just cut three small (3/4") cubes and tried those. Sure enough it had an off taste and resulted in a stuffy nose and a tickle in the throat. Luckily I thought ahead so didn't eat enough to give me that nasty heartburn.
I took out my last bit of meat (~1 pound bone-in deer roast) and my last bag of definite grassfed fat/meat for dinner tonight and my first meal tomorrow.
Came home after work and gorged on the food as I was ravenous. Probably took down close to two pounds of food but I needed it. I'm felling tons better now though which is what's important. I'm looking forward to gorging tomorrow night two once my order gets here. I'm down to 171ish pounds due to lowered food intake this week and look forward to putting some weight back on.

[djr_81]

Mmmmmmm...it's good to have lots of food again.
My order showed up yesterday and I've been gorging since then.
I got 20 pounds of high-fat (78/22) ground beef, 7 pounds of boneless ribs, 5 1/2 pounds of bone-in ribs (what a waste ), a beef tongue, 2 beef hearts, and about 7 pounds of beef suet.
Since last night at 7 I've taken down over 3 pounds of ground, maybe 1 1/2 pounds of boneless ribs, and a slab of bone-in ribs. I'm feeling a whole hell of a lot better than I did last week.

My findings thus far:
The high-fat ground meat (about a pound) gave me some stomach distress about an hour after eating it. I had the sudden urge to go to the bathroom and it was very runny but greenish not yellow (breakdown of fat seemed adequate ). After that my stomach settled and I noticed my energy levels increasing. They actually got to the level where I was up late until I was ready to sleep.
This morning I woke up and was ravenous again. I'm not sure if this was due to bodily repairs at night with the excess protein or the more easily absorbed fat. I ate some of the boneless ribs and they quelled my hunger until noonish.
At noon I ate some more of the high-fat ground (maybe another pound) and had only a slight stomach grumbling. Again my energy levels increased quite nicely and this time seemed to sustain me well.
Ate again at 6.This time it was more boneless ribs.
Then again over the last two hours (9-11) I took down another pound of ground and the bone-in rack.
I just wish it was nice out so I could get some biking in tomorrow.

[djr_81]

The high-fat mix is a good emergency food for me but that'll never be a staple.
I noticed over the almost week I was eating it that it was having more and more trouble sustaining me (to the point where I was getting sleepy during the day which I never do).
I was also having to drink more than twice the water I typically would because I was so thirsty.
Lastly I was going to the bathroom more frequently and with more bulk. I also had noticeable gas which I don't normally get anymore.

I cut up some of the boneless ribs yesterday and ate them for my two meals. Everything went back to normal with that. I'm going to stick to whole meats like I was before.

An interesting thing I noted with the change back to whole meat again is the itchiness I noted after switching back.
I wonder if ground meat is also less effective in controlling Candida; maybe the greater surface area of the grind results in quicker digestion, higher spike in available nutrition, and subsequent growth of the organism with overages? This could possibly explain the surge in energy I experienced the first day; it was very similar to how I'd feel if I drank a soda back when trying to control the candida on a mixed SAD-esque diet.

[djr_81]

First, a thank you to Lex. After commenting on alternate ways of making pemmican (higher heat with quicker rendering vs. lower heat and slower rendering) last week Lex sent me a pound of his pemmican. I held onto this until today so I could perform a subjective test on myself.

In preparation for today's test I've only eaten my grassfed chuck and additional grassfed suet. Both work well with my body and give me my personal best so far as energy.
Last night's meal was eaten at about 7PM.
Today's pemmican test was performed at 10AM so my body was in a fasted state of aproximately 15 hours; devoid of stomach contents.

Open the pemmican:
My first observation is that I have been preparing my pemmican incorrectly. For some reason I was using a 1:1 ratio of fat to shredded lean by volume as opposed to weight. This did occur to me after the last batch I made but Lex's pemmican confirms this.
This explains why I didn't have the issue with my pemmican being like sawdust. I actually prefer the higher-fat pemmican; it's like eating a block of meaty chocolate.
Unfortunately this further complicates my past observations. If I was making pemmican with a ratio of maybe 3:1 fat:lean I'd expect to invariably get diarrhea after eating it. Invariably I was bound up with constipation after ingestion. Something amiss with how my system processed the pemmican.

My second observation; Lex, your grinder isn't doing the best of grinding the meat IMO. If you've got a Vitamix blender give it a whirl (pun fully intended ) on the jerky. It makes a truly fine meat dust, as opposed to the more shredded texture in this pemmican, which makes a much more enjoyable product. Of course this is a personal choice on texture but I suggest you try it and see how you like it.

My third observation is the pemmican smells very "nutty" to me now. I don't recall if the past batches smelled that way but there's definitely an almost roasted undertone to the smell. This actually carried over a bit in the taste as well.

Eating the pemmican:
I cut the pemmican up into bite-sized blocks and sprinkled a bit of sea salt on top.
Ate two pieces and waited to see if I had a reaction. Almost right away I got a runny nose.
I ate another two pieces, to elicit whatever reactions I'd get without going overboard and ruining my weekend, and then put the plate with the remainder on my kitchen counter.

Symptoms:
Runny nose within a minute of ingestion.
Slight (very slight but still there) stuffiness in my nose after ~5 minutes of a runny nose.
Slight feeling of flushing. I had checked my temperature prior to ingestion as well as after feeling of flushing. Both temperature readings stayed the same (98.1 in one ear, 97.9 in other ear) pre- and post- ingestion.
I developed a slight sensation of bodily detachment. This is what I'd normally label as "brain fog" but as I wasn't trying to think it just felt as being less "me".
Indigestion began about 15 minutes after ingestion. Began with some pressure in my abdomen. Progressed to some gas & rumbling in my stomach. After about an hour I had to quickly make my way to the bathroom. I have not had diarrhea but I did have a very loose stool and have continuing pressure and indigestion which indicates I'll have a bit more "bathroom time" before the day is out.
I have not gotten a sore throat which would be a given with one of my typical food reactions.
A very interesting side note is I'm fighting the craving to eat more of the pemmican. I know it's bad for me and if I eat more I'll feel like hell at least all day Saturday but there's still a compulsion there. I don't know if this indicative of an allergenic issue (you crave what you're allergic to) or something changing in the fat by applying heat but I thought it was very interesting.

Lex, can you confirm that the tallow in this batch was rendered at a lower temperature for a longer time frame?

My conclusion is that pemmican in a cooked form is not an adequate food for my body.
I will be making a batch of "raw pemmican" within the next two weeks and give that a shot. I really do enjoy the texture of my pemmican so I'd love to have it at some point without it bothering me stomach. Sucks that it would be so perishable but nothing I can do about that.

[William]

Indigestion?! It's the opposite for me.
Wondering why, the only thing I notice is that I never put salt on it. Tried that when first making it, it became seriously repulsive. That may have been a change in body chemistry, and it will change during adaptation to high tallow VLC.

It could also be that we are making different things and calling it all pemmican. I'm thinking of women who trade recipes, and they all turn out differently.
If this is caused by microbes, then it is environmental medicine, than which there is nothing more complicated.

[Paleo Donk]

Your experience seems almost surreal. You really notice a runny nose one minute after ingestion? This seems incredibly bizarre to me, not that I don't believe you, just that your sensitivity to foods is so much stronger than mine, though lots of people on here are incredibly sensitive to other foods. I think this is one of the main contributing factors for people switching to raw paleo is that they generally are extraordinarily sensitive to small changes in diet that they can keep tinkering with the inputs until they achieve something desirable.

I feel so fortunate that I can eat almost anything without an immediate reaction. Perhaps, its you that is fortunate with a body that recognizes poisons very fast and has a good warning system.  I also wonder how it is that you crave pemmican though it illicits a negative reaction so fast. I remember Delfuego saying he went throuh 2.5 months of pain and suffering(he reported some really vicious side effects) when he switched to an all pemmican diet before his symptoms went away. So its a possibility that pemmican can work for you if you stick with it long term.  Maybe you can try it again in 6 months or something.

[djr_81]

Wondering why, the only thing I notice is that I never put salt on it. Tried that when first making it, it became seriously repulsive.

At least the first two times I tried pemmican were with no additives; just rendered fat (tallow) and meat that I dehydrated at 104*F. The first time I made it was with grainfed beef & grassfed lamb fat (this was all Slanker's had fat-wise when I started). The second time was grassfed beef & grassfed lamb fat. Both gave me a large number of stomach problems but I don't think I noted most of the other symptoms (my system was still in beginning recovery at that point so I didn't have such clear-cut reactions).
Since then I've made it maybe another 2-3 times with both beef suet and beef fat and had similar issues. Yet the same components, including the jerky, do not elicit a reaction in my body when raw even if combined in the same meal.

That may have been a change in body chemistry, and it will change during adaptation to high tallow VLC.

No William; this was my body letting me know that it did not want this in it. I get the same reaction to other things including grainfed beef. For lack of a better way to describe it this is a physiological "stop". I can push through it but there's hell to pay at least the next day and possibly more beyond that.
I eat a lot of fat. I doubt this had anything to do with adaptation to more fat. If it did I'd have gotten the runs as I always do in the past when eating more fat that I can utilize.

It could also be that we are making different things and calling it all pemmican. I'm thinking of women who trade recipes, and they all turn out differently.
If this is caused by microbes, then it is environmental medicine, than which there is nothing more complicated.

We could be making different things. Do you follow Lex's recipe or something similar when you prepare yours?

--------------------------------------------------

Your experience seems almost surreal. You really notice a runny nose one minute after ingestion? This seems incredibly bizarre to me, not that I don't believe you, just that your sensitivity to foods is so much stronger than mine, though lots of people on here are incredibly sensitive to other foods. I think this is one of the main contributing factors for people switching to raw paleo is that they generally are extraordinarily sensitive to small changes in diet that they can keep tinkering with the inputs until they achieve something desirable.

Yes, my sensitivity really is that high at this point.
The sole reason I came to this diet is because of the food allergies I've developed since I was a teen. I was diagnosed with them at 19 but in hindsight suffered from them since middle school. As time has worn on I've had fewer and fewer foods that I was able to eat. Eventually it got reduced to just meat that didn't elicit a noticeable reaction. That's when I found this site which allayed a lot of my fears of continuing down that path (fiber, nutritional deficiencies, etc.). Even after starting to eat raw carnivore I've found issues with things (grainfed meats including beef and chicken, apparently pemmican). This hasn't necessarily been a path of discovery and enlightenment for me but one of survival. I don't damn it for that though; it's brought me full circle to a healthier whole than I would have been had I continued on my oblivious SAD diet.
After years of looking for the telltale signs of your bodies reactions you see them very clearly. As long as I stick to raw grassfed meat (including jerky) along with grassfed fat (and a dash of salt here and there) I do good to great. If I deviate I pay for it quickly.

I feel so fortunate that I can eat almost anything without an immediate reaction. Perhaps, its you that is fortunate with a body that recognizes poisons very fast and has a good warning system.  I also wonder how it is that you crave pemmican though it illicits a negative reaction so fast. I remember Delfuego saying he went throuh 2.5 months of pain and suffering(he reported some really vicious side effects) when he switched to an all pemmican diet before his symptoms went away. So its a possibility that pemmican can work for you if you stick with it long term.  Maybe you can try it again in 6 months or something.

It is a blessing and a curse. It's great that I can get a true reading of how something works for me personally but it does suck when it happens since it's an almost instantaeous thing; there's no "wiggle" room.
My thoughts on the cravings are two-fold. It's either an allergy to tallow (I'm not sure if this is scientifically possible if the raw fat is ok) or it's a chemical change that occurs during rendering which is addictive. I've been getting adequate fat intake so it's not just a craving for fat.

As for Delfuego; he's a stronger man than I. He had the fortitude to push through 2 1/2 months of "detox" until his body adapted. I've tested the waters with enough foods to know when something is healing for me or is outright wrong. I would never push myself to eat the stuff that long if it gave me symptoms like this each time I ate it. Raw meat and fat don't elicit any response and I have a reliable local source; why fix it if it ain't broken?

[William]

We could be making different things. Do you follow Lex's recipe or something similar when you prepare yours?

Yes, Lex's recipe is basic, but I use lower temperature for rendering(200°F/24hours in enamel, not stainless), although according to delfuego this should not matter.
? I've never used lamb fat to make tallow because it then congeals at temperatures well above 104°F, and I don't know how to mix it properly so that it coats every speck of powdered jerky. Lamb fat is supposed to contain much stearic acid, which has a high congealing temp.
I mix at =<104°F.

Have you considered your allergic reactions from the viewpoint that it may indicate lack of germs? From alphagruis' comment on their presence in pemmican, and the definite medicinal(healing) affect is has on me, and C. Louis Kervran's findings on the amazing abilities of microbes to transmute minerals from one element to another, and the opinion of one wise physician that all disease including allergies result from fundamental mineral deficiency, it looks like something worth considering.
I have never used antiseptic/germicidal anything in my kitchen or house since I bought the place 7 years ago.

[djr_81]

Yes, Lex's recipe is basic, but I use lower temperature for rendering(200°F/24hours in enamel, not stainless), although according to delfuego this should not matter.
? I've never used lamb fat to make tallow because it then congeals at temperatures well above 104°F, and I don't know how to mix it properly so that it coats every speck of powdered jerky. Lamb fat is supposed to contain much stearic acid, which has a high congealing temp.
I mix at =<104°F.

I believe Lex mentioned he's doing the longer/lower rendering now but I'll await his confirmation. If his isn't I'll render another batch of beef tallow here myself in an enamel crockpot to test the final combination before a fully raw version.
The lamb fat was a bust all around. I'd gotten a large 4-lb package of it at the time and had no space in the freezer so rendered it to keep it from spoiling. Since I had the tallow I made pemmican with it, twice. I didn't have a thermometer handy so I warmed it until it melted then let it cool until it began to congeal and mixed the meat in. Not very scientific and not the easiest but it was guaranteed to do the least damage to the meat.

Have you considered your allergic reactions from the viewpoint that it may indicate lack of germs? From alphagruis' comment on their presence in pemmican, and the definite medicinal(healing) affect is has on me, and C. Louis Kervran's findings on the amazing abilities of microbes to transmute minerals from one element to another, and the opinion of one wise physician that all disease including allergies result from fundamental mineral deficiency, it looks like something worth considering.
I have never used antiseptic/germicidal anything in my kitchen or house since I bought the place 7 years ago.

I doubt the allergic reactions are a lack of germs.
I'm as "earthy" as most of the others are on here. The only time I use soap is after putting my hands in the water of our fish/turtle tanks (I'm allergic to many of the fillers in commercial food). I don't use chemical cleaners. I avoid medicine, especially antibiotics. I've been this way for a long time.
I truly believe that my allergies are a result of a Candida overgrowth. I was sick with sinus issues fairly often as a kid and took a high quantity of antibiotics. I think it just decimated the good letting the Candida grow unchecked resulting in a permeable gut and subsequent allergies.

[PaleoPhil]

I think I've discovered the source of my increased burping--my last batch of tallow was a little sour because I had left the suet in the fridge and moisture got into the package, so I decided to increase the setting on my crockpot to "low" instead of "warm." It had an overcooked taste to me as a result. It got so I couldn't stand it anymore and threw it out as soon as I got some more suet. I went back to melting the suet at the "warm" setting and I'm burping less again. I then realized that the increased burping started when I started eating the overcooked tallow. This seems to confirm that cooking fat reduces its digestibility.

I've tried pemmican that was cooked at fairly high temps by someone else and to me it tasted like old burnt grease that fell onto the meat from the side of the oven. Just awful. Could cooking be behind the "nutty" taste you experienced?

[djr_81]

Could cooking be behind the "nutty" taste you experienced?

I'm fairly sure that is the cause.

[William]

I think I've discovered the source of my increased burping--my last batch of tallow was a little sour because I had left the suet in the fridge and moisture got into the package, so I decided to increase the setting on my crockpot to "low" instead of "warm." It had an overcooked taste to me as a result. It got so I couldn't stand it anymore and threw it out as soon as I got some more suet. I went back to melting the suet at the "warm" setting and I'm burping less again. I then realized that the increased burping started when I started eating the overcooked tallow. This seems to confirm that cooking fat reduces its digestibility.

I'd had the impression that you were just warming the fat, and not really rendering, so it's not what I call tallow.
If that's true, then yes, overcooked fat is indigestible.

[PaleoPhil]

Normally I just warm it, but that time I put it up to 200 degrees Farenheit, figuring I'd get rid of the extra moisture and sour better, but it backfired. I don't know if I'm less used to cooked stuff now or I heated it too long at that setting.

[William]

If you didn't filter it, you got the nastiest cooked proteins that I ever tried. That's why I obsess about filtering.

[PaleoPhil]

I filtered it as much as I filter the raw tallow.

[William]

Raw tallow?

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, it's heated very low on the "warm" setting of the crockpot. It never gets above a temperature I can dab my finger in and eat the raw tallow without any pain.

[William]

I've never tried that, so don't know if there are any solids left in. These are the problem IMO.

[carnivore]

I think I've discovered the source of my increased burping--my last batch of tallow was a little sour because I had left the suet in the fridge and moisture got into the package, so I decided to increase the setting on my crockpot to "low" instead of "warm." It had an overcooked taste to me as a result. It got so I couldn't stand it anymore and threw it out as soon as I got some more suet. I went back to melting the suet at the "warm" setting and I'm burping less again. I then realized that the increased burping started when I started eating the overcooked tallow. This seems to confirm that cooking fat reduces its digestibility.

I've tried pemmican that was cooked at fairly high temps by someone else and to me it tasted like old burnt grease that fell onto the meat from the side of the oven. Just awful. Could cooking be behind the "nutty" taste you experienced?

I have burping problem with cooked tallow : undigestable.