Trouble in Paradise - leg cramps

[lex_rooker]

About a year ago I started waking up with cramps in my calf muscels. I added a bit of salt to my diet (about 1g-2g per day) and the problem
cleared up.

A bit over 2 weeks ago I transistioned from a diet of 68% calories from fat/32% calories from protein/zero calories from carbohydrate, to 80%
Fat/20% Protein/Zero Carbohydrate. I continued to use the same amount of salt.

For the last 2 nights I've been awakened by severe cramps in my right leg. On one night it happened twice -once about 3am and again about
5am.

Any clue what might be going on here?

Lex

[Raw Kyle]

Are they the same type of cramps as before; do they feel the same? Also is anything else different other than your fat/protein ratio?

Really I have no idea how less protein and more fat could cause cramps, but perhaps it's something to do with a drop in your BG from less protein?

[lex_rooker]

The cramps are the same as before.  Since this did happen even on the lower fat diet, it could be a deficiency in some nutrient or other.  A deficiency can take years to show up as the body depletes its reserves.  I really don't know but this is a possibility.  I've been following this way of eating now for about 3 years and everything has been fine up to this point.  I hesitate to take any supplements as I don't know what to take. I've been told that a magnesium defence often causes leg cramps, but then I'm not sure that this is much more that speculation at this point.

Lex

[Satya]

About a year ago I started waking up with cramps in my calf muscels. I added a bit of salt to my diet (about 1g-2g per day) and the problem
cleared up.

A bit over 2 weeks ago I transistioned from a diet of 68% calories from fat/32% calories from protein/zero calories from carbohydrate, to 80%
Fat/20% Protein/Zero Carbohydrate. I continued to use the same amount of salt.

For the last 2 nights I've been awakened by severe cramps in my right leg. On one night it happened twice -once about 3am and again about
5am.

Any clue what might be going on here?

Lex

I have no idea why the leg cramps would come back switching to higher percentage of fat, but nighttime cramps are a symptom of mineral imbalances of the calcium and magnesium variety.  You may want to look at how those ratios have changed with your new eating plan.  It could be something else, of course, but that's a very common cause for such wake-up ache-ups.  Here's a bit on it:

http://www.bodyandfitness.com/Information/Health/legcramp.htm

Beef is high in magnesium.  Are you eating enough food?  I'll have to go review your amounts again over in the other thread.

Good luck in determining and solving the problem.  Messed up sleep makes for a cranky day.

[lex_rooker]

Satya,
The calories are the same at about 2,000/day, but the amount in grams has dropped from 850g/day to 650g/day.  My guess is that the fat carries very little in the way of minerals though it may have some fat soluble vitamins, and that the lean portion of the meat is what carries most of the minerals.  The original amount of protein which would come from the lean was 145g/day but has dropped to about 90g/day on the new mix.

My concern with this being a mineral deficiency is that if an 80% of calories fat based diet is optimum for us, and I'm eating raw meat and fat from grassfed animals so little in the way of nutrients is being destroyed by cooking etc, then why am I seeing this deficiency?  This may point to the need for some plant based food like berries that would have been available to our ancestors.

I'm working on the Pemmican Manual and in my research I've read where the Native Indians put a small % of dried berries in their pemmican - say 5% by weight or so.  Some say that this was only done to "meet European tastes" for the pemmican they sold to the Hudson Bay Company (which was many thousands of pounds per year), but that their own pemmican was just meat and fat alone.  Based on my current experience, I'm not so sure.  Possibly those berries were in there for a reason and it is the berries that made pemmican a complete food.

Do you or Craig include any small amount of plant based foods in your current diet?

Lex 

[wodgina]

My experience,

My diet has improved 100% compared to 3 years ago when I didn't give a damn about diet I ate junk food and binged drank! Now I eat really well (RVAF and now RAF) and I don't think i've had any improvement in cramps.

The body really is a mystery. I can live with cramps for now.

[Satya]

What is it with the cramps you guys have?  It's been my teen years since I had the nightly calf cramps.  Can you try whole fish or something?  You don't eat fish, Andrew, I think I remember reading.  Hmm, what to do about that?

BTW, Lex, I am an omnivore, always have been.  I am increasingly carnivorous; but give me salad greens, tomatoes and avocado or give me death!  At least for now.  I am flexible and open-minded about the whole thing and do learn so much from you rpd elders.

Re pemmican.  Weston Price found the Inuit natives drying berries in isolation from Europeans, so they must eat some plants.  It would make sense in a harsh climate to preserve what food you can in summer for use.  It would be use like a condiment probably, but variety in foods might be a good thing for nutrient assurance.  Seaweed has been important for many groups as well.

What does The Craig have to say about all this?  Is he still in computer woedom?

[Satya]

My concern with this being a mineral deficiency is that if an 80% of calories fat based diet is optimum for us, and I'm eating raw meat and fat from grassfed animals so little in the way of nutrients is being destroyed by cooking etc, then why am I seeing this deficiency?  This may point to the need for some plant based food like berries that would have been available to our ancestors.

Ah, but who says 80/20 fat/protein is ideal?  Some guru?  And maybe it is an individual or seasonal thing.  I don't think the natives were so hung up on ratios.  However, I have read that they would become very nervous when the animals available to hunt were lean for a time.

I'm working on the Pemmican Manual and in my research I've read where the Native Indians put a small % of dried berries in their pemmican - say 5% by weight or so.  Some say that this was only done to "meet European tastes" for the pemmican they sold to the Hudson Bay Company (which was many thousands of pounds per year), but that their own pemmican was just meat and fat alone.  Based on my current experience, I'm not so sure.  Possibly those berries were in there for a reason and it is the berries that made pemmican a complete food.

The Pemmican Manual.  I am waiting patiently for this one.  Thank you so much for this contribution, Lex.  You know, we have such a great community here.  I am so grateful for all of you!

[xylothrill]

Very seldom do I eat plant matter but I do (and I keep forgetting this potentially very important fact) conusme Azomite clay. http://azomite.com/typical_analysis.html

Some native peoples actually eat dirt as some animals do. Azomite was recommended in Nourishing Traditions as a less costly alternative to "edible" clays on the market. I still have a lot of it left. When Azomite was selling it on their own site, I got a 40# bag for about $40. Now it looks like you have to get it from their distributors.

Craig

[lex_rooker]

Craig,
Looks like Azomite can be ordered on line.  44# now costs about $60 which is not all that bad.  I expect it should last a long time.  How much to you take and how often?

Lex

[xylothrill]

Craig,
Looks like Azomite can be ordered on line.  44# now costs about $60 which is not all that bad.  I expect it should last a long time.  How much to you take and how often?

Lex

Lex,

I take about a heaping tablespoon dissolved in mineral water on the days I remember - usually two to three times a week.

Craig

[TylerDurden]

I use edible French Green Clay, but only once every 6 months or so, as it no longer seems to induce detox, now that my body's cleaner than before.

[Nicola]

Lex, perhaps it is the lack of minerals in your water?

Yes, fat is part of a healthy diet - but was this always 80%? I feel like a victim, when I "must" eat super high fat or what ever.

A nother thought; before, when you had more protein you did not think of berrys and now on less protein you are looking for a way to "replace" what is now missing.

Our mind is what carrys us threw life - peace of mind: Lex, I am shore you will work things out to suet you. You are not the victim of any doctor.

Nicola

[wodgina]

I love it!  intended or.... unintended

[lex_rooker]

Lex, perhaps it is the lack of minerals in your water?
A nother thought; before, when you had more protein you did not think of berries and now on less protein you are looking for a way to "replace" what is now missing.

Nicola,
My experience is that we all tend to look at the short term to find the cause of our troubles.  Many nutrient deficiency problems don't show up for months or years because the body is so efficient at storing critical nutrients.  I don't believe that my cramps have anything at all to do with the short term dietary change I've made from 68% fat to 80% in my diet. If you will remember, I had a bout of leg cramps some months back and seemed to solve that by adding a bit of salt to my diet.  If it is a deficiency, then it is most likely from a shortage of elements that have been missing since I started this all meat adventure a few years ago.  My assumption is that my body has just run out of it stored reserves.  Again this is just a guess.

Also remember that for most of this time I had been drinking water with no mineral content at all and this could be a major contributor to the problem.  Based on past discussions you and I have had, I decided to go back to drinking regular well water but this change was just made rather recently.  If there is a mineral deficiency then I may need to supplement for a while to build things back up to normal levels, and then the mineralized water could be enough to maintain things.

I've made the point before that I'm not a purist who holds onto some supposedly perfect diet even when it is clear that something is not proper.  I did that years ago when I went vegan and my overall health suffered for it.  I'm much more interested in what works.  If it becomes clear to me that eating meat alone is not a good long term strategy then I will do what is necessary to correct the problem.  If it means adding a few grams of fruits or vegetables per day, or a bit of mineral clay to my diet then that is what I will do.  It's not about some theoretical perfect diet, it's about what works in the real world.

The all meat diet is just an adventure I embarked on after I read Steffansson's articles.  I thought I'd give it a try to see if it could truly be done.  For the most part it has been successful and I like the results so I've stuck with it.  I'm now doing an experiment to see if I find a difference when adjusting the relative proportions of Fat and Protein. It's just a side trip on the main adventure that is helping me to understand more about how my body works.

I won't be making any changes to my new and improved 80% fat diet for at least another 4-6 weeks.  I have my annual blood test coming up in July and I want to see the results (which I will report here) before I determine what to do next.

Lex

[Nicola]

From "AllExperts, Special Diets", TylerDurden (I hope you don't mind...)

Montmorillonite clay/Intestinal bacteria

QUESTION: Hi, on Aajonus' that eating moist clay helps build intestinal bacteria...i have noticed that when i add montmorillonite clay to still water outside, the mosquito larvae that normally inhabit these areas, can't survive..so i wonder if that translates in humans to killing off intestinal bacteria, rather than supporting growth? I take it myself and can't decide how i feel about the effects. Any ideas on this? Terramin from California Earth Minerals is the clay...its supposed to be good for detox. Thanks for your thoughts, Sarah

ANSWER: Well, from what I understand, clay does kill off bacteria(even good bacteria), so it's really not a good idea to use it a lot. Aajonus' other recommendation (ie bacteria-rich "high-meat") might well be useful in bolstering the body with good bacteria if you want to use the clay regularly in the long-term.

I would therefore recommend using the clay only from time to time, to be safe. My own experience(re "edible French Green Clay") seems to indicate that short-term use of clay is beneficial, whereas I haven't seen any benefit from using it frequently, to be honest.

[TylerDurden]

I don't mind my own material being used on this forum.


As regards leg cramps, these usually are related to magnesium-deficiency, though I think a lack  other minerals can cause similiar trouble(sodium, potassium and calcium, apparently) -oh, and a lack of vitamin B1. Since Lex isn't consuming magnesium-depleting raw dairy, there may be some mineral deficiency in the soil on which his beef-cattle are fed on?


I would personally recommend going in for a much wider variety of raw animal food, first, before trying raw carbs, as the former will be more nutrient-dense. I have to admit I was extremely wary when I read that Lex only/mostly ate raw beef(albeit likely of higher quality than my own grassfed beef, here in the UK). My own solution was to go in for raw wild hare or raw wildcaught oysters/wild mallard duck etc. etc.so as to ensure no deficiency would appear.

[raw]

TO LEX, you're like a super eating guru for me and all my other friends here in this forum. i'm just wondering, have you ever try wheat grass in empty stomach? i grow two trays a week. even in winter, i take these trays outside some part of the day to give them real sunlight. it is very different that any other stores. and for god sake, it is so divine...

[raw]

i couldn't finish the post, b/c my toddler woke up. lex, it is possible that leg cramps issue doesn't related with your almost perfect diet. this goes probably beyond the proper diet... i mean, your marital status, the pollution, stress from work....etc.i like the title of the post "Trouble in Paradise"...very appropriate. take care.

[Matt51]

Do a google search on iron overload. Beef is iron rich. Raypeat.com has good articles on the subject, he recommends drinking coffee with meat to limit iron absorption.

[RawZi]

... iron overload. Beef is iron rich. Raypeat.com has good articles on the subject...

    Thank you Matt.  Buffalo smells better than beef to me, but I kind of dislike that everyone in my house has a separate diet from the next guy.  One of my cats is very picky and will only eat buffalo, so I've been giving that to the other cat too, and eating it myself.  Also, I want variety, and the easiest organ to get is liver, so when I get organs, it's usually that.  That also has high iron, right?  Truthfully, I feel much better eating raw chicken and other light colored meats.  Not it looks like I may have too much iron in my blood.  It's time for me to stop being in denial that each in my house needs an individual diet.  I'm eating (raw) chicken tonight.

[Matt51]

Donating blood helps. Don't supplement with vitamin C. Separate the time when you eat fruit, from the time you eat meat.

[carnivore]

In my experience, lots of fat (or carbs before I eat carnivorous) gives me cramps (among other symptoms). No explanation, but it's a fact.

[lex_rooker]

TO LEX, you're like a super eating guru for me and all my other friends here in this forum. i'm just wondering, have you ever try wheat grass in empty stomach? i grow two trays a week. even in winter, i take these trays outside some part of the day to give them real sunlight. it is very different that any other stores. and for god sake, it is so divine...

I'd say wheat grass is Gawd Awful rather than divine.  I did the wheat grass thing for many years and all I got for my trouble was light headed, bloating, and gas.  But I continued to consume the stuff becasue all the gurus said it was the thing to do (Victorus Kuvinskas, Ann Wigmore, et al)  I grew my own as well.  I had a full hydroponic wheat grass production setup on my patio and could easily produce 10 trays per day.  I'd often drink 16 oz of wheat grass every day along with a mixture of carrot (including the green tops), parsley, beet (including the tops), cabbage, celery, cilantro, and other veggies that were in vogue at the time. I've drunk straight wheat grass juice on an empty stomach, mixed in fruit smoothies, added to other green juices and just about every other way you can imagine.  I still have a commercial Wheatena Wheat Grass Juicer, a Champion Juicer, and a commercial Ruby Juicer - all in storage.  My health improved dramatically when I stopped drinking the green muck and started following paleo dietary principles. 

There were no juicers and no wheat grass (wheat is a modern plant) in paleo times.  Something to think about.....

Lex

[raw]

dear lex, i believe that you went through a lot and also these green juice didn't help you or many of us. i grow my wheat grass in thick nutritious soil, and i really feel the difference by drinking the juice than any other green things out there. but i found that raw animal foods are much more energetic than those greens we buy from supermarket. i always enjoy of reading your post. thanks lex.