Author Topic: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?  (Read 29869 times)

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William

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2009, 10:49:55 pm »
PaleoPhil I found a picture of you in the "meat ups". Many members have mentioned in the journals (I could name 20+) that they don't digest raw meat (found in the journals, cramps, maldigistion, candida).

Disinformation! You have been deceived. I'm one of those who don't eat "wet" raw meat, because I don't like it and have had problems digesting it.
However I normally eat all-raw meat ZC in the form of pemmican. Dried raw meat is perfectly digestible, and my guess is that it is so for all.


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I am looking into something new because I do not believe in just one factor - our body needs many factors in balance to function...

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It just kind of upsets me when you find both sides with the cooked/raw and it does not give the full picture.

? I don't know what you refer to?

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I do not eat at night because the body and mind do not need to fill up at night; are we not able to deal with the night/peace in any other way?

Nicola

Eating should be finished several hours before sleep. This is standard advice, I had assumed that it is so well known that it need not be written.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2009, 07:48:26 am »
PaleoPhil I found a picture of you in the "meat ups". Many members have mentioned in the journals (I could name 20+) that they don't digest raw meat (found in the journals, cramps, maldigistion, candida).

I am looking into something new because I do not believe in just one factor - our body needs many factors in balance to function...
Like you, Nicola, I like to put concepts to the test with lots of skeptical questions, to see what holds up to scrutiny. I am open to the possibility that your claim may be true, but I haven't witnessed it myself, so would you mind sharing a name or two out of the many who have reported having trouble digesting raw meats, so that I may see for myself what they wrote and determine whether there may have been a misunderstanding? It has been my experience that sometimes the claims made about other forums have their origin in unintentional misunderstandings.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline DeadRamones

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2009, 07:53:17 pm »
Nicola I saw your post on ZIOH forum about raw meats. If I remember correctly. The mod just deflects every study by saying. "Those studies weren't done on 0 carbers." Which left a very stale debate.

Offline Nicola

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2009, 09:26:00 pm »
would you mind sharing a name or two out of the many who have reported having trouble digesting raw meats, so that I may see for myself what they wrote and determine whether there may have been a misunderstanding? It has been my experience that sometimes the claims made about other forums have their origin in unintentional misunderstandings.

Charles, Kzantal (Martin), Delfuego, Caroline, Larry, Suzanne, Christopher, Nicklas, Moises... misunderstanding - perhaps, because many factors count!

William, I am not looking for members that believe this is a sport of "I am better than you" - many that eat pemmican don't do so well!

Nicola
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 09:39:06 pm by Nicola »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2009, 03:48:47 am »
Nicola, you wrote: "Raw food compounds are colloidal and tend to be hydrophilic, meaning that they attract liquids. Thus when we eat a salad or some other raw food, the hydrophilic colloids attract digestive juices for rapid and effective digestion. Colloids that have been heated are generally hydrophobic - they repel liquids, making cooked foods harder to digest. However, the proteinaceous getlatin in meat broths has the unusual property of attracting liquids - it is hydrophilic - even after it has been heated." http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2125&pid=48837#pid48837

Have you changed your mind, or are you just re-examining your views to make sure they're sound?

As for Charles, I've seen him write that he doesn't like raw or rare meat or organs mainly because he doesn't like the taste. He did write: "I can get away with it [raw meats] sometimes but if I push it too many times in a row, I'll have loose stools. I wouldn't call it diarrhea because I don't get any cramps or any discomfort, it's just really loose." http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2125&pid=124807#pid124807

Charles has frequently written that he doesn't believe raw meats are substantially less healthy than cooked, he just doesn't want people talking too much about them and possibly scaring people away from his forum. In support of raw meats, Charles wrote on 06-23-2009: "After [infants] wean at about two years old, they can go directly to meat, even raw meat and be just as content [as they were on breast milk]." He also wrote: "our raw friends regularly eat raw meat and don't have [parasite] problems. Perhaps, we can pass these things without harm if the rest of our system is not compromised. There clearly was a time in our history when people did not cook things so thoroughly and yet they were able to ward off whatever existed in their food." http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2125&pid=10803#pid10803

Delfuego eats essentially raw beef jerky (usually 90, and sometimes 105, degrees F) in his pemmican. He says he can't digest cooked meat, so he could hardly be cited as an example for eating cooked meats.

Caroline wrote: "raw meat has NEVER given me any problem whatsoever." http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2125&pid=124207#pid124207

Suzanne actually claims she eats raw meat: "I was eating my raw meat dinner in my dad's hospital room and of course the nurse had to walk in at the second. She goes missing all day long when I need her, but magically appears as I sit eating a raw steak in the cardiac unit. I am pretty sure she went back and told all the staff some crazy lady is eating a raw steak, lol." http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2125&pid=47171#pid47171

As a matter of fact, at least three of the staff members there eat raw meat (Suzanne, Catin and Jeff)! Other members there also eat raw meat: Nyteez, Karb Killa, and Marnee. I haven't noticed anyone there saying they have problems digesting raw meat or that it a raw meat diet has made them chronically ill or anything negative like that.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 04:18:58 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Nicola

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2009, 04:52:21 pm »
PaleoPhil would you please read ALL of the journals (past and present) + those members have posted in other journals about digestion / raw / cooked / cramps... + little inputs on the "Discussion" thread. Delfuego and all the others have mentioned all over the board about reactions to raw meat vs. cooked meat.

I am not interesting in playing a game with you or any other person and diet is not a football match!

Nobody seems to know "the answer" and I wish people would consider the whole picture; digestion has many, many aspects like water, the kind of water, amount... we drink.

Nicola

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2009, 05:39:07 pm »
Could people please keep any criticisms of raw in the hot topics forum. The original post of this thread didn't even have anything to do with the raw/cooking aspect, so the whole issue isn't even relevant to this thread.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 10:11:18 pm by TylerDurden »
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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2009, 06:36:45 pm »
    Cooked meat just closes my throat up before it can go to my stomach.  Meat has to be raw for me.  I had to drink tons when I was a kid, between bites, trying to get the meat down my throat.  It wasn't food; because it didn't do anything good for me.
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Offline van

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2009, 08:06:52 pm »

  Nicola,  it seems now for almost two years I have read about your interest or confusion about raw vs. cooked.  Are you still vacillating back and forth?  Do you have direct experiences with either?  Have you tried one month eating one way and the next eating the other, ( or possibly several months )?    It appears you seem to be looking for the answer from collecting statistics.   If so, the problem is that you'll collect the highest number from the forum you collect the hardest from.  As I have posted so many times on the ZC forum, each has to find out for oneself.  But even then the variable and one's own mind can make the process seem full of deceptive pot holes.  You used to write of watery stools for quite some time on raw.  Has that passed?  What is your own experience?  Maybe that is a place to share from and gain experience from others' input.    By the way,  I really appreciate all the sites/posts you put up.   Van

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2009, 10:36:27 pm »
Many members have mentioned in the journals (I could name 20+) that they don't digest raw meat (found in the journals, cramps, maldigistion, candida).
Maybe it was because they tried very fresh muscle-meat? Aged one (one week, for example) is easier to digest.
And what about organ-meats? Did they try them? They are easier to digest then muscle-meats, esp. after couple of days of aging.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2009, 02:43:28 am »
It's not so much a question of digestion. The fact is that the cooked zero-carbers are so full of toxins from decades of eating cooked food that, inevitably, there will be some detox side-effects like diarrhea when they first switch. I myself got green diarrhea for the first 2-3 days of going rawpalaeo as the toxins from cooked diets started to leave my system.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2009, 02:54:56 am »
Yeah, but if it's inevitable, why didn't I get this detox or diarrhea when I switched? Was it because I transitioned in stages and had been eating some beef jerky before I transitioned to raw?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2009, 03:04:37 am »
Yeah, but if it's inevitable, why didn't I get this detox or diarrhea when I switched? Was it because I transitioned in stages and had been eating some beef jerky before I transitioned to raw?

That may be it. I shouldn't perhaps have claimed that this effect happened always at the start. It usually does but some people might detox in different ways at slower rates etc. For example, people who still eat some cooked food are much less likely to experience a violent detox as their body is still being swamped with toxins so any detox would be at a slower, milder , perhaps unnoticeable rate(with slower recovery from health, though). That's what AV says, anyway.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2009, 03:12:30 am »
Re: Del Fuego eating raw meat

He stated that he experimented with raw meat and that all of his family was "angry" and that one of his sons showed "symptoms of autism". I nearly fell out of my chair when reading this likely gross exaggeration. Sure, I suppose it could be true as well as his 2.5 month battle of depression to the point that he would find himself crying alone after switching to pemmican. This was also after 4-5 years of cooked zc I think, which makes it even more hard to believe. Regardless of his obvious extreme sensitivity to changes in diet, I still think he has plenty of good information and experience for others to learn from.

As for me, raw meat digests very well, almost like I am not digesting anything at all. Moderator Jeff digests raw meat very well as does Katelyn. Im sure there are more. Also, as for Martin, he may very well be the sickest person I have seen on that site. He has been zc for quite some time (8 months?) and still has digestion problems with both forms of meat and even occasionally vomits.

And Phil,good work you are a sicko, I can't believe you tracked down all that info with the links. I'd actually read most all of the quotes you pulled.

William

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2009, 06:00:52 am »
The different reactions might be due to differences in meat, I think butchers and abattoirs do different things to it. And there's a difference in the animal's environment.

IIRC a common experience in first eating raw is to be concerned about constipation, from WWTL. That was mine, and I wondered if I should copy the constipated mathematician.
That turned out to be just weak connective tissue which as we know fixes itself when we eat raw.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2009, 08:46:11 am »
Re: Del Fuego eating raw meat

He stated that he experimented with raw meat and that all of his family was "angry" and that one of his sons showed "symptoms of autism". I nearly fell out of my chair when reading this likely gross exaggeration.
Yeah, I remember that now, thanks. Since he generally heats his jerky around 95 degrees F, which is not considered cooked, if there is a real difference then I think it may be that the shredding of the meat makes the pemmican easier for him and his family to digest than whole raw meat. I also wonder if he was getting enough fat when he tried eating whole raw meat. He's doing well now, so I'm not going to knock him just because I'm a bit skeptical. I can't count the number of times I've been skeptical of something (like the benefits of high meat, for example), only to find out later it's true, so I try not to dismiss anything right away when it comes to ancestral eating, no matter how ridiculous it may sound (doesn't mean I buy into it right away either, of course).

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Also, as for Martin, he may very well be the sickest person I have seen on that site. He has been zc for quite some time (8 months?) and still has digestion problems with both forms of meat and even occasionally vomits.
Yeah, good point. I don't think the rawness of the meat is necessarily the source of his problems.

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And Phil,good work you are a sicko, I can't believe you tracked down all that info with the links. I'd actually read most all of the quotes you pulled.
Thanks, yeah I'm a geek. (Shhh--luckily most of the posts were in one thread on raw meats LOL).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline MMD

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2009, 09:17:59 am »

As a matter of fact, at least three of the staff members there eat raw meat (Suzanne, Catin and Jeff)! Other members there also eat raw meat: Nyteez, Karb Killa, and Marnee. I haven't noticed anyone there saying they have problems digesting raw meat or that it a raw meat diet has made them chronically ill or anything negative like that.


Hi.  I am that Marnee.  I ate mostly to all pemmican for several weeks.  During this time I had horrible diarrhea.  I thought it would work itself out but I ran out of pemmican and so I stopped eating it for a while.  The next time I ate some pemmi (a small amount) I got the diarrhea again.  The thing is that when I eat raw fresh meat I have no problems at all.  I cook burgers by frying them and they are pretty much raw and just crispy on the very outside edge.  And that doesn't bother me at all either. Again, I have no problem eating raw and I eat a big serving of raw beef and raw fat pretty much everyday.  And I love it.  The grass fed beef I get is very delicious :)

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2009, 09:50:12 am »
Thanks for the explanation Marnee. Perhaps Nicola confused your problems with pemmican for problems with raw meat? What do you think was the source of the issue with pemmican for you?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Nicola

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2009, 09:33:13 pm »
Thanks for the explanation Marnee. Perhaps Nicola confused your problems with pemmican for problems with raw meat? What do you think was the source of the issue with pemmican for you?

Nicola is not confused! I didn't even remember to mention Marnee as she left the zerocarb forum quite a time ago. I remember Marnee in the context of running and also can remember that she had/has "bowel -\".

I didn't know that Nyteez eats raw meat? She is living out and away from modern stimulants; she seems to have her feet on the ground and has been doing well with cooked or raw meat.

I find what Tom G. has mentioned very interesting - he and Lex are easy/reasonable to understand.

Nicola

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2009, 01:14:42 am »
Nicola is not confused! I didn't even remember to mention Marnee as she left the zerocarb forum quite a time ago. I remember Marnee in the context of running and also can remember that she had/has "bowel -\".

I didn't know that Nyteez eats raw meat? She is living out and away from modern stimulants; she seems to have her feet on the ground and has been doing well with cooked or raw meat.
OK, sorry, Nicola. I thought Marnee was trying to explain a possible misunderstanding of her issues with pemmican as being issues with raw meat in general, but apparently not. So now that you see that a surprising number of current and former members and even administrators at the ZC forum eat at least some raw meat without problems--at least, according to their posts there--do you feel more comfortable with it, Nicola? I hope this helped in some fashion, even given my usual blunders. I don't have all the answers myself, but I'm fairly comfortable with raw meat eating myself at this point, despite having had some concerns of my own before embarking on it.

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I find what Tom G. has mentioned very interesting - he and Lex are easy/reasonable to understand.
Agreed.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline MMD

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2009, 03:44:24 am »
Hi.  I just wanted to add some perspective to my experience.  I really don't know why the pemmican affects me badly.  I wonder if it is e.coli growth during the drying processes and I'm sensitive to it?  Or maybe it's just the "fat runs", if you know what I mean?  Not sure. 

William

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2009, 05:21:09 am »
Hi.  I just wanted to add some perspective to my experience.  I really don't know why the pemmican affects me badly.  I wonder if it is e.coli growth during the drying processes and I'm sensitive to it?  Or maybe it's just the "fat runs", if you know what I mean?  Not sure. 

e.coli needs water to grow, and it evaporates quickly from the surface at the usual drying temps if there is enough air movement. You could test this by drying some meat and eating it with some fat that you know is safe - maybe even butter, if you tolerate that.

Could try a different fat too, maybe rendered at different temperature. I had the "fat runs" from raw fat, and I still suspect the butcher.

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2009, 11:35:05 am »
Hi.  I just wanted to add some perspective to my experience.  I really don't know why the pemmican affects me badly.  I wonder if it is e.coli growth during the drying processes and I'm sensitive to it?  Or maybe it's just the "fat runs", if you know what I mean?  Not sure.  
Thanks for the explanation, Marnee. That was my second guess at what your intention was, but I figured I'd better not try guessing at it again.  -[

I know fat lubricates my system a bit. Maybe in some folks it has a stronger effect?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline raw

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2009, 04:47:23 am »
Id say my wife and i eat about 2-4 pounds of leanish meat a day (each) and then mabye a lamb sausage or two. We dont count anything, just eat what we want. We go by a 'how do you feel' approach. If im hungry ill eat whatever I have. Ill go weeks on lean cuts then feel like i want something fattier so ill get some lamb for that week. when im not feeling like eating lamb ill get whatever other animal i feel like eating.. its been working pretty great so far.. like losing the fear of dying from parasites ive lost the fear of dying from protein poisoning haha.
great post!! i do the same. my 2 and 1/2 yrs old toddler eats raw beef. i give him 1/4 lb lean muscle with 2 tsp of raw butter. i feed him that for his diner.
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Offline Michael

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Re: How much meat are you guys eating on a daily basis?
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2009, 07:22:59 am »
great post!! i do the same. my 2 and 1/2 yrs old toddler eats raw beef. i give him 1/4 lb lean muscle with 2 tsp of raw butter. i feed him that for his diner.

Hey, that's great to hear raw!  How long have you been feeding your child RAF?  How is his general development and what particular effects have you noted since introducing RAF?  As you may have seen in other threads, I have a 6 month old son that I will soon begin introducing to solid foods (currently 100% breast-fed).  Obviously, I'm extremely keen for him to eat mainly RAF but am also aware that I have to take into consideration the expectations and views of my partner who is not following a RAF diet.  You're extremely lucky to have a wife eating in a similar manner to yourself - a result of which your child must be thriving!  I'd be extremely interested in on-going reports of your experiences and progress.  I hope to start a journal on here for my son which others have expressed an interest in.  I'm sure your experiences would also be highly valued.
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