Warming the honey

[Kokki]

Hmm.. I can`t be completely sure, is my honey totally raw. There might be possibility that it`s lightly warmed (it comes from Andorra, and warming is necessary only when the weather is colder [no warming over 37]).

Here`s lot of organic honey producers in Finland, but everybody use sugar for winter feeding, of course. That`s the reason why I`m buying honey from elsewhere.

Aajonus writes that it`s important to eat untouched stuff.

(Many beekeepers use "solvering iron" to skim wax off - and they`re hot. It`s safier to use a fork).

What would you say, is it harmful to eat lightly warmed honey?

Ps. You can recommend good honey producers if you want

Psps. This problem really irritates me. I can choose between toxic and warmed 

[SkinnyDevil]

Well, I buy all my honey from locals who guarantee unheated, unprocessed, unfiltered, RAW honey.

If you don;t have a good local source, you might try a local Health Food Store and see if they carry raw honey.

[lex_rooker]

What would you say, is it harmful to eat lightly warmed honey?

From my perspective it is harmful to eat ANY honey, warmed or not.  Honey is about 50% fructose and 35% glucose and 15% water.
To your body it is biochemically the same as refined white sugar and high fructose corn syrup. It may be paleolithic as bees were certainly around at the time, but that doesn't make it good food for humans. There is little difference between consuming honey and consuming soft drinks and candy bars as it will have exactly the same effect on your body.  The fructose in honey will do a number on your liver just as surely as the fructose in a soft drink, and the glucose will cause the same insulin response as a candy bar.

I do believe that paleo humans probably ate honey at every opportunity but those opportunities would have been few and far between.  Imagine yourself naked, armed only with rocks and sticks, and then tell me how you would get at honey concealed in a hollow tree guarded by thousands of angry bees.

Honey as a treat once every few years - maybe.
Honey as a regular part of a healthy diet - I don't think so, at least not for me.

Lex

[Josh]

I think I agree on the effects of honey, but I don't agree that honey was inaccessible. I've seen a documentary with stone age hunter
 ruthlessley exploiting wild hives. The way I see it not everything Paleo people did was optimum for us..they took any opportunities to eat calories that came along, but yeh it would be self limiting how much honey there was in a year.

[Michael]

That's a sobering thought Lex!

Although I avoid honey mostly now (since eating vast amounts in my primal diet days!) I do still occasionally partake if I make a special homemade raw treat for my partner and myself - such as raw ice-cream, coconut macaroons etc.  This is very rare but maybe I need to reconsider such indulgences!!

My partner is currently breastfeeding our 3 month old son and is eating as good a diet as I could hope for bearing in mind she's not into raw or paleo diets.  She is eating small amounts of honey (a couple of teaspoons) with yoghurt on a daily basis.  Do you think the fructose is passed into the breast milk with deleterious effect?

[lex_rooker]

She is eating small amounts of honey (a couple of teaspoons) with yoghurt on a daily basis.  Do you think the fructose is passed into the breast milk with deleterious effect?

I haven't a clue Phil, but my guess would be that there would be no difference in breast milk composition whether eating honey or any other source of glucose and fructose such as fruit and/or starchy carbs.  Just because honey is manufactured in bee hives rather than a modern factory doesn't mean that it would be processed by the body any differently than the same elements from any other source.

I think I agree on the effects of honey, but I don't agree that honey was inaccessible. I've seen a documentary with stone age hunter ruthlessley exploiting wild hives.

I never said honey was inaccessible, only that it would not be a regular part of a human diet.  As for the 'stone age' documentary, I am unaware of any real documentation of the stone age other than a few cave paintings.  To my knowledge none of these depict humans raiding bee hives.  Movies purporting to be a documentation of the stone age are highly suspect as I don't belive they had any movie cameras during that time.

Lex

[Josh]

My phone lost part of my email Lex...I meant to say there was a tribe with stone age technology who had techniques for getting lots of honey..the 'akiye' in southern africa iirr.

Probably they rely on honey because they can't get enough game...but still they're not scared of a few bees and can get it daily not yearly.

[Josh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqlv41S8ijA

Ah yes, Bruce Parry. Try 52 secs in.

[cherimoya_kid]

I only eat honey that is still in the honeycomb.  It's never been heated.  Any other honey has the chance of being heated.

[goodsamaritan]

No problem with honey warming in my locale.  Philippines is tropical weather all times of the year.
It's not my staple food, but it is nice to have some around the house. Honey lemon juice on a warm day... hmmmm....

Try calling my local honey maker: +63-49-567-1457 or +63-917-9553843
or email: thehoneyhouse@yahoo.com

http://www.myhealthblog.org/2009/04/28/honey-house-in-alaminos-a-source-of-pure-raw-honey/

Philippine time is +8

Maybe they deliver abroad.

[lex_rooker]

Josh,
Your video post can't be viewed in the US due to copyright restrictions.  That said, if the video is modern and the akiye are around today farming bees, I wouldn't call that stone age.  It also doesn't make honey a good food for humans.  There are many different cultures that eat many different foods - most of which we wouldn't find appropriate for a paleo lifestyle.  The fact that people eat these foods because their natural food has been depleted doesn't make what they eat good food for humans.

You are free to rationalize your food choices just as I rationalize mine, however, if I was going to eat sugar, I'd choose a Snickers bar.  It tastes better than honey and probably has far less fructose causing less stress on the liver.  I expect the insulin response is a wash.

If you wish to pretend that honey, raw, in the comb, or otherwise is a proper food for humans just because it is 'refined' by bees rather than in a modern factory you are fooling only yourself.   And truth be told, you are not fooling your pancreas or liver one bit.  

Lex

[Hannibal]

I find raw honeycomb and honey one of the best sources of carbs. I do very well when I eat honey with mutton suet - this combination is very thoothsome. The digestion is perfect. I think Aajonus is right about this - more honey is ok, but more fruits is not. When I eat quite a lot of fruits I do quite bad re digestion. When I eat more honey (e.g. 200 g) I do very well and my digestion is still ok.

[TylerDurden]

I don't trust raw honey as it's usually heated(UK legislation allows honey to be labelled raw even if it's heated to 80 degrees Celsius for a short while). I buy raw honeycomb instead.

[SkinnyDevil]

From my perspective it is harmful to eat ANY honey, warmed or not.  Honey is about 50% fructose and 35% glucose and 15% water.
To your body it is biochemically the same as refined white sugar and high fructose corn syrup. It may be paleolithic as bees were certainly around at the time, but that doesn't make it good food for humans. There is little difference between consuming honey and consuming soft drinks and candy bars as it will have exactly the same effect on your body.  The fructose in honey will do a number on your liver just as surely as the fructose in a soft drink, and the glucose will cause the same insulin response as a candy bar.

Lex,

I have a comment and a question.

1) While I don;t necessarily disagree with the gist of what you say, I think you clearly over-state your case when you liken honey with a soda or candy bars. The former, when procured from a natural source & un-heated/un-filtered, is as far removed from the processed & chemically-enhanced poison in soda & candy bars as high-quality raw (or cooked!) organic meats are from a Big Mac.

2) That said, I am extremely interested in what it is you have found that simple sugars do that is so damaging to the liver. I've read a bit about it, but every study is within the past 5 years or so and all are small samples. Further, none control properly for other lifestyle issues (the biggest one I saw had them eating 5000 calories of cooked food with tons of fried fats).

Can you expound?

[Raw in Florida]

Raw honey is packed with vitamins, minerals and digestive enzymes. There are countless testimonials about its healing properties used both internally and externally.  Spreading fear about its danger to organs is no different than someone coming on here saying raw meat will kill you because of bacteria and parasites. It’s just an outlandish claim with no scientific evidence to back it up. That said I don’t think anyone should eat large amounts of raw honey daily. But taken in conjunction with raw fats occasionally I can only see it as health giving.

[Hannibal]

Raw honey is packed with vitamins, minerals and digestive enzymes.

Actually, there are quite few vitamins and minerals in honey, but indeed a lot of enzymes and other healthy ingredients.

[Inger]

Hi Kokki!

I lived in Finnland most of my life..  

Where I order my Honey; www.orkos.com
Ok, I dont eat much of it, but when.. its the best!
Also when I am in Finnland, occasionally. They deliver all over EU. And their Honey are like wild Honey...mmm. No sugar feed. And they have many different kind of it. Simply the best! I also order my Fruits and nuts from there. Just try!

Inger,
the Tarjoilija

[dizzybee6]

Honey from your region is best but I but from Pacifica honey in Calfornia   http://honeypacifica.com/   they are very reasonable for small orders to just call them and they can adjust shipping costs.  they also have great flavors.I love the mixed wild flower cold pressed honeyThe peppertree honey is nice too.  I take mineral water and stir in a glob of honey and it is like an italian soda... I love it

[lex_rooker]

1) While I don;t necessarily disagree with the gist of what you say, I think you clearly over-state your case when you liken honey with a soda or candy bars. The former, when procured from a natural source & un-heated/un-filtered, is as far removed from the processed & chemically-enhanced poison in soda & candy bars as high-quality raw (or cooked!) organic meats are from a Big Mac.

2) That said, I am extremely interested in what it is you have found that simple sugars do that is so damaging to the liver. I've read a bit about it, but every study is within the past 5 years or so and all are small samples. Further, none control properly for other lifestyle issues (the biggest one I saw had them eating 5000 calories of cooked food with tons of fried fats).

You are free to believe what you wish and if you choose to disregard more current studies because they are small (or whatever reason) that is your choice as well.  What seems to be coming to the forefront is that NAFLD (fatty liver disease) is running rampant and is linked to consumption of fructose which bypasses the normal metabolic pathways for simple carbohydrates and is metabolized directly by the liver.

The metabolic effects of the sugars are the same regardless of the source (honey or soda/candy bar).  The added chemicals are just an additional problem.  Same goes for the Big Mac.  It's not the cooked meat in the Big Mac that sets it appart from plain cooked meat, it's the "secret sauce"!

Lex

[Hannibal]

What seems to be coming to the forefront is that NAFLD (fatty liver disease) is running rampant and is linked to consumption of fructose which bypasses the normal metabolic pathways for simple carbohydrates and is metabolized directly by the liver.

It is correlated, but it hasn't been proven that NAFLD is caused by consumption of fructose, and for sure not by moderate consumption of raw unheated honey
that's basic methological principle, which is very often not obeyed

[lex_rooker]

It is correlated, but it hasn't been proven that NAFLD is caused by consumption of fructose, and for sure not by moderate consumption of raw unheated honey that's basic methodological principle, which is very often not obeyed

Hmmmm, I guess you could say that most of the causative effects of various dietary elements are correlated and not proven.  So, enjoy your honey.  I will stick with raw meat and fat which I'm sure is correlated with something.  What I find amusing is the agonizing and hand wringing over eating honey (99.9% calories from pure sugar) heated or unheated.  From a heath stand point there is zero measurable difference - both are a very poor food for humans. 

Isn't it wonderful being rational animals.  We all get to rationalize and interpret the facts to support whatever we wish to believe.  Unfortunately our bodies don't have the luxury of adopting our chosen belief system and must conform to rather strict biochemical and physical laws.  If you are still addicted to carbs and just have to have them, by all means eat as much honey as you wish.  You'll find much support in the popular press telling you how good honey is for you (all those wonderful minerals and enzymes) and this will make your rationalization appear to be based on fact. It's a win-win!

Lex

[Josh]

Josh,
Your video post can't be viewed in the US due to copyright restrictions.  That said, if the video is modern and the akiye are around today farming bees, I wouldn't call that stone age.  It also doesn't make honey a good food for humans.  There are many different cultures that eat many different foods - most of which we wouldn't find appropriate for a paleo lifestyle.  The fact that people eat these foods because their natural food has been depleted doesn't make what they eat good food for humans.

You are free to rationalize your food choices just as I rationalize mine, however, if I was going to eat sugar, I'd choose a Snickers bar.  It tastes better than honey and probably has far less fructose causing less stress on the liver.  I expect the insulin response is a wash.

If you wish to pretend that honey, raw, in the comb, or otherwise is a proper food for humans just because it is 'refined' by bees rather than in a modern factory you are fooling only yourself.   And truth be told, you are not fooling your pancreas or liver one bit.  

Lex

I did say that Lex...they probably eat so much of it because they can't find game - they're forced to look for alternative food.

I was just responding to what you said about " Imagine yourself naked, armed only with rocks and sticks, and then tell me how you would get at honey concealed in a hollow tree guarded by thousands of angry bees." - that's pretty much their reality, and they raid loads of wild hives without too much trouble.

I'm not interested in eating honey as to the best of my knowledge you're right about it's harmful effects. I was just trying to make the point that although honey is not a good food for humans paleo people could have eaten it easily if they wanted, and possibly would have sought it out to some extent. It's hard to judge what their tastes would have been, but if it tasted sweet and nice then would they not have wanted to repeat the experience?

But whether they did or not doesn't necessarily make it good...say if paleo people drilled holes in their heads to let the sky spirits in doesn't mean it's a good idea

ok trepanation is apparently neolithic...but you get what I mean!

[yon yonson]

also it's important to realize that honey made in traditional bee boxes does not contain larvae. the box keeps the queen separated from the honeycomb so she can't lay eggs in it. so, a REAL raw wild honey would contain lots of protein and fat from the larvae. that would make it a much more appealing food for paleo men.

anyways, i personally eat a little honey every once in a while as almost my only carb source (along with a piece of fruit once a week or two). i can tell it isn't as optimal as fat and meat but i feel like i need at least some carbs or else i feel like it's hard to keep from losing weight (which isn't what i want).

has anyone every had honeycomb with larvae in it? i hear you can remove the separator if you want larvae in the honey. it sounds good to me

[Hannibal]

Hmmmm, I guess you could say that most of the causative effects of various dietary elements are correlated and not proven.  

That's very true, Lex

So, enjoy your honey.  I will stick with raw meat and fat which I'm sure is correlated with something.  What I find amusing is the agonizing and hand wringing over eating honey (99.9% calories from pure sugar) heated or unheated.  From a heath stand point there is zero measurable difference - both are a very poor food for humans.  

If you find honey not healthy for yourself - do not eat it.
But why should I ged rid of sth, which I find very toothsome and good for myself?
That's your personal opinion that it's "very poor food for humans". There isn't any proof, Lex? Moderate amounts of carbs (e.g. 50-100 g) aren't definitely proven by anybody to be bad for human, or at least for 99,99% of people. But it is for some other discussion re zero-carb versus low-carb

[TylerDurden]

I find the notion that there's no real difference between raw and heated honey as utterly ridiculous.I mean, there's a loss of enzymes,  a loss of nutrients, heat-created toxins would appear etc. And, so far, the case re fructose in fruit appears to be on pretty shaky ground, it's only the evidence re processed fructose(as in diet sodas) that is more credible.