When sick

[DeadRamones]

When you're feeling under the weather. Do you fast or eat normal? I've heard the pros of fasting while sick is that it frees up energy for your body to repair. I've also heard when you're sick, it's good to eat lots of vitamins,minerals to assist your body in healing.

I might just under eat by taking small sips of a liver,fruit,veggie smoothy to help me beat this cold. But what do you guys do to assist you?

[van]

lots of rest, and more rest.  Eat only when hungry, and stop just before satisfied to make sure you digest completely what you put in, and that you don't over eat due to boredom from all the resting....   I used to believe in eating a ripe lemon or lime every hour,  now with zc, not so sure, but do believe that lemons and limes, when ripe and organic are a far superior source of vit c than anything coming out of bottle, even those that aren't corn based.  I always feel better after a cold than before it came on, providing I allow it to run it's course with lots of  rest and nourishing/cleansing food.

[TylerDurden]

I've rarely felt under the weather on this diet. I had 1 cold in the last 8 years, lasting 3 days or so, caught from my brother. I had various minor detoxes with mild flu-like symptooms in the first 3 years of going rawpalaeo before I healed - other than that, I've had some side-effects after eating cooked foods but since I don't eat them in any quantity, the side-effects are quite small, usually.

Anyway, my solution during that cold I had was to eat some high-meat and quite a bit of raw fruit but otherwise not eat anything else. I tend to strongly agree with the notion of fasting speeding up healing as I found that my own healing-rate sped up once I went on whole-day fasts here and there and discarded Aajonus' silly notions re needing to eat all the time.

[cherimoya_kid]

I still get sick about the same amount, maybe 1 time a year, but I don't ever really feel bad when  I do get sick.  I will have a sore throat, congestion, and maybe mucus, but otherwise my energy is good, I'm not achy or tired.  The same colds that knock other people out for days at a time do almost nothing to me.

[William]

I got sick once in maybe 7 years from 1- eating restaurant food
                                                                2- attending a hockey game
                                                                 3- eating junk food at the game
all in a few hours. (I'm not very smart)
It was either a bad cold or a minor flu. Took a week or two to recover.


Fasting is the way, but breaking the fast when seriously hungry with food that contains all needed nutrients is the other half of the way.

"fruit,veggie smoothy" is not the way. Evil carbs, eh?

[TylerDurden]

"fruit,veggie smoothy" is not the way. Evil carbs, eh?

If I were having a cold, then a fruit smoothie would be just the thing for me to get me back on track(assuming it was derived from raw  organic fruit)

[DeadRamones]

How's it evil carbs? Cause of fiber,fructose or the insulin response?

I'm not a low carb dieter so I don't see it that these fruit/veggie carbs are evil for me. I never had any stomach or digesting issues from any source of carbs prior to attempting a RPD. To this day I limit myself to 2 fruit servings & 2 leafy vegetable servings.I feel fine but  I'm considering adding more to help fuel my workouts.
 
People live well into their 60's eating solely cooked junk foods with the majority of it being processes carbs. Are they healthy? Most likely no, but they're alive. So if I dabble daily in a little fruit/veggie I don't feel it's threatening my health. Plus I ate these evil carbs in a fasted state, taking 1 sip about every hour or so. I remember reading a while ago about how fructose affects your body differently while waking up from a fasted state. Also that fiber slows down insulin response.  I want to understand how they're evil?

[van]

I don't think they are evil.  As you wrote, and as I have witnessed from my grandmother and her father living well past 100, carbs won't kill you.    And then:  there's the experience, the experience of having given them up for some time, and 'tasting' them from this vantage point.  So often it's the perspective that informs.    Or in other words, from not having eaten them for some time now, they have a most decidedly sweet, sugary, not quite evil, but very seductive taste that says more to me than 'that's a nice piece of fruit'.     

[William]

You might google "insulin resistance" and get the word - Rosedale's is at the top of that list, or you could give raw zero carb a fair trial and truly know the difference.

[TylerDurden]

How's it evil carbs? Cause of fiber,fructose or the insulin response?

I'm not a low carb dieter so I don't see it that these fruit/veggie carbs are evil for me. I never had any stomach or digesting issues from any source of carbs prior to attempting a RPD. To this day I limit myself to 2 fruit servings & 2 leafy vegetable servings.I feel fine but  I'm considering adding more to help fuel my workouts.
 
People live well into their 60's eating solely cooked junk foods with the majority of it being processes carbs. Are they healthy? Most likely no, but they're alive. So if I dabble daily in a little fruit/veggie I don't feel it's threatening my health. Plus I ate these evil carbs in a fasted state, taking 1 sip about every hour or so. I remember reading a while ago about how fructose affects your body differently while waking up from a fasted state. Also that fiber slows down insulin response.  I want to understand how they're evil?

It is a common characteristic of people that when they turn to ZC diets, that their whole body's digestive system changes in fundamental ways(re different enzymes/bacteria being needed etc.) so that they then lose their ability to digest carbs properly. The result is that they then claim that all carbs are evil. I had the same experience when I went VLC(hardly any carbs at all) for many months at a time. I would develop minor side-effects from eating carbs or not be able to properly digest them - of course, as soon as I went back to eating a diet slightly higher in carbs, those issues vanished quickly and completely.

[DeadRamones]

It is a common characteristic of people that when they turn to ZC diets, that their whole body's digestive system changes in fundamental ways(re different enzymes/bacteria being needed etc.) so that they then lose their ability to digest carbs properly. The result is that they then claim that all carbs are evil. I had the same experience when I went VLC(hardly any carbs at all) for many months at a time. I would develop minor side-effects from eating carbs or not be able to properly digest them - of course, as soon as I went back to eating a diet slightly higher in carbs, those issues vanished quickly and completely.

Oh okay, I understand now.

William, thanks for answering. I'm googleing DR.Rosedale work right now.

I'm very active at work & workout anywhere from 1-3 hours 5x a week. Calories from carbs help me fuel my workouts. I also carb cycle. So it's pretty much low carbs on days I don't train. I see it as unrealistic for me to attempt ZC because Grass-fed beef & wild fish are way to pricey for me to live off of just meats. Getting some calories from carbs helps me stay within a food budget as well.

[Raw Kyle]

DeadRamones, suet and hide fat are the cheapest sources of raw calories out there. Bananas might be cheaper, but if you compare an organic banana at about $1.29/lb to grass fed suet you can get for around $2.00/lb, and then realize that bananas have peels you don't eat, fiber you don't digest, and carbs are 4 calories/gram whereas fat is 9, I'd say that it's very comparable and suet might be cheaper. Mixing that in with lean meat would give you a balanced meal that is as cheap, and healthy, as they come.

[TylerDurden]

Hmm, I'm forced to pay the equivalent of 7.5 US dollars for a kilo of suet.

While I agree that a diet of mostly meat and animal fat can work out cheaper(eating carbs seems to boost the appetite), I find, like many rawists, that raw suet is pretty bland in taste. I would probably
 have to quit this diet if my only source of animal fat was suet.

[DeadRamones]

You're right, banana's aren't really all that cheap if you consider the peel that gets tossed in the compost bin. I'm trying to bribe my local Whole Foods butcher for some free/discounted beef fat since I found out from an Inside source that they throw it out.

[yon yonson]

You're right, banana's aren't really all that cheap if you consider the peel that gets tossed in the compost bin. I'm trying to bribe my local Whole Foods butcher for some free/discounted beef fat since I found out from an Inside source that they throw it out.

i get my suet free from whole foods. i just asked the butcher guy and hey was more than happy to give it to me cuz otherwise he'd just throw it a way. i guess im trying to say it shouldn't be a problem

[DeadRamones]

Awesome, I thought it was just the one by me since it's in a yuppie town that's probably afraid of fat. Do you know if you're getting grass-fed,organic or conventional? Or like the saying beggers can't be choosers. You're just happy cause it's free food?

[PaleoPhil]

Please speak for yourself. I had trouble with plant carbs both when I was eating them regularly and when I went near-ZC, and I had trouble with carbs very early on in near-ZC. It didn't occur only after I'd adapted to ZC. I'm still in the process of adapting to raw carnivore.

[invisible]

Perhaps zero carb requires one to readjust to carbs but even then no one can completely digest carbs properly. Whether they know it or not, everyone has at least some trouble with carbs - hence farting and foul smelling stools being considered 100% normal.

[TylerDurden]

Please speak for yourself. I had trouble with plant carbs both when I was eating them regularly and when I went near-ZC, and I had trouble with carbs very early on in near-ZC. It didn't occur only after I'd adapted to ZC. I'm still in the process of adapting to raw carnivore.

I quite agree that there is a significant minority who've developed serious problems re digesting carbs due to past illness/harm to the digestive system etc. - I'm even sure there is a much smaller minority who are perhaps ill-adapted to all carbs from birth(eg:- modern-day Inuit brought up on modern foods?). That said, the condition I mentioned re the body requiring totally different enzymes/bacteria when switching to a ZC diet, and therefore developing an intolerance towards carbs, applies to the majority of people switching to and from a ketogenic diet(even Stefansson accepted such a change re different enzymes required). It's not  a coincidence that ZCers generally complain far more re carbs than cooked foods by comparison to other non-ZCer rawists. My  above explanation applies to most cases.

[PaleoPhil]

I also accept that different bacteria and enzymes are used when digesting plant carbs vs. meats and have posted about that here myself, but I don't think that proves that the only reason people have trouble fully digesting plant carbs (I specify "plant" carbs because I know of no studies that focused solely on animal carbs) or experience side effects from carbs is because they've been eating ZC. To the contrary, I think that most people who have carb problems have been eating at least some carbs their entire lives.

Non-ZCers may also not complain about carbs because they don't realize the ill effects they are having. I was one of those people myself, who was eating carbs and not realizing they were causing problems until I eliminated them and the problems rapidly evaporated--and I am far from the only one with this experience. I used to recommend lots of fruits and veggies myself until experience led me to question the extent of their benefits. They are certainly better on avg than grains, legumes, dairy and sweeteners, but apparently not as beneficial as I thought for most of my life. As always, your mileage may vary, and as always I'm hoping that you're at least partly right and I will have no ill effects from plant foods when I re-introduce the least-offending of them. I suspect that you've gone overboard here, though, in claiming that the only reason for problems with carbs is ZC dieting. We'll see.

BTW, I don't claim that all carbs are "evil" or have some magical negative qualities (after all, I'm hoping that I'll be able to re-introduce berries without negative effects in the future). Such loaded verbiage is over-the-top, albeit seemingly popular on the Internet. The extreme nature of much of the discourse on the Internet is a trap I've fallen into myself at times, but one I'm going to continue to try to avoid.

One thing I've noticed in my short time at this forum and the ZC one is that there are calls from some for 100% purity and allegiance to either ZC or Raw--usually subtly implied rather than spelled out--and criticisms of approaches that fall short of purity. Due to some competition between the two camps, there is also a corrollary tendency for ZCers to claim that raw is bad and for Rawists to claim that ZC is bad. I do not follow a 100% pure approach and do not have pure allegiance to either camp, but instead find much of use in both approaches and have created a marriage of the two in my own approach. As a result, my approach and my views and even I personally have come under some criticism from some in both camps. I suppose I will have to get used to that. However, any suggestion, whether direct or implied generally with broad brush, that I somehow dogmatically paint all carbs as evil in the extreme and equally contemptible is false. The same goes for any implications from the ZC crowd that I believe that only 100% raw diets will provide any benefits at all or that I have some religious adherence to rawism. My own approach does not blindly adhere to either extreme and the only way I would follow such extreme approaches is if it turns out they have practical benefit for me. I also do not expect many people to follow my approach and do not consider them "evil" if they don't, and I prefer more rational discussion and sharing over such heated language. I actually hope that I'm reading more into some of the criticisms at both forums of the competing approach than is actually there and that the two camps can actually get along splendidly, just as ZC and raw get along splendidly in my diet.

One thing I've done to try to diffuse the tension is to call myself a carnivore rather than a ZCer (although I may forget at times--so please be patient with me), because ZC is often taken to imply 100% purity to aboslutely no carbs. I hope this helps.

[Cthulhu]

Thought I'd chime in on the whole ow/zero carb thing:

I have experimented with different macronutrient ratios while eating raw foods. I have even been on a pretty much zero carb, all raw meat diet long enough to 'adapt', where my body did not rely on carbs to burn for energy, but it was still impossible for me to do for my level of fitness. I do powerlifting/natural bodybuilding and after a while I was getting weaker and crashing - not to mention I was not able to spike my insulin levels post-workout like I usually do to quickly pull my body out of a catabolic state. I had some great results doing zero carb, but they were largely offset by the negative side effects that I was experiencing. It's just not for me. I cannot powerlift on a diet of zero carbs. I do, however, cycle my carbs, which I find to work best for me. For example, I lift 5 days a week and two days a week I do not lift. I also take a week off every 6-8 months. On my off days, I don't eat many carbs at all. On my lift days, however, I do eat carbs. I think a lot of people get the diets of sedentary/normal raw paleo dieters mixed up with those of raw paleo natural bodybuilders, which is totally different. Just to maintain my strength and LBM, in conjunction with my level of fitness, I need about 3500-3800, sometimes more, calories a day. At the moment, I'd say about 30% of my calories come from protein, 40% come from fat, and 30% come from carbs. Sometimes my carbs will go to 40%. If someone just exercises a few days a week, then perhaps a very low carb diet or a zero carb diet will work best for them, but it would destroy me as far as my fitness goals are concerned. Not to mention, I do not have any bad side effects from eating this way. I do great on fruit and honey as my main carb source. I feel great and I have not been sick for over 7 years. In fact, I haven't even had a cold in over 6 years. I think the most important thing to do is to listen to your body. Once you get rid of the junk food, clean up your diet with raw foods, and clean your body up, so that you're in an environment where you're able to listen to your body and what it needs, you'll usually know right away if a certain food is affecting your health in a bad or good way. Some zero carb, raw paleo dieters may not agree with the fact that, for a post-workout carb source, I eat a good amount of raw honey with a good raw protein source and some wild bananas (I dont' eat seedless fruit), but that's because my dietary needs are completely different than the needs of someone who does not have the same kind of lifestyle and because my body requires an insulin spike after lifting weights. If someone is doing zero carb and it works for them, then great. Keep on doing it. Zero carb/very low carb diets have their place and work for different people, but it is not for me. It would ruin my health and my fitness goals.

[Cthulhu]

Perhaps zero carb requires one to readjust to carbs but even then no one can completely digest carbs properly. Whether they know it or not, everyone has at least some trouble with carbs - hence farting and foul smelling stools being considered 100% normal.

Excuse me, but I know when a certain food affects my health in a bad way. I eat fruit and raw honey without a problem. My body does great on it and I do not have any digestive issues whatsoever( no gas, no "loose stools", etc.). To say that carbs 'negatively' affect everyone in some way, whether they know it or not, is an overstatement. Not eating any carbs would actually negatively affect my health because my body requires them for the kind of lifestyle that I lead.

[TylerDurden]

Yes, the drop in physical performance  on zero-carb is a stumbling block, IMO. That said, I wouldn't mind being proved wrong with, say, an Inuit ZC-eating  Olympic athlete, but they don't seem to be around.

Re PP comments:- My point re ZCers claiming all carbs are evil was not so much about you but  about William and many other ZCers making such comments on this and other forums - to the point where there was even once an attempt to rewrite prehistory and claim that herbal medicine didn't exist in the Palaeolithic era. As for doubtful claims re not noticing the harm of carbs, the simple fact is that most of us come from very harmful SAD-oriented diets and as a result our digestive systems are all completely f*cked up in different ways. In my own case, due to my own peculiar condition, I developed a particularly bad ability to digest any cooked animal fats along with multiple side-effects which was even worse than the usual negative symptoms RVAFers develop over the years from eating cooked meats - but I had no issues/side-effects with raw fruit(except the nutritional deficiency issue from not eating meats during fruitarian/raw vegan days). Similiarly, you most likely developed a serious intolerance to any and all carbs as a result of perhaps overeating too many refined carbs.

Re ZCers/rawists:- There isn't really any disagreement between ZCers and rawists, just between some of the hardcore ZCers and myself. For one thing, raw ZCers form only a very  tiny minority among rawists(and even among raw-animal-food-oriented dieters) so there is little reason to quarrel. When I first collaborated in starting this forum, our original forum-owner Craig(a devout ZCer) and I had no reason whatsoever to take sides as it was understood that we were all raw animal foodists of a sort, that we each did what worked best for our particular selves, and were in full agreement re the things that this board was for and against(ie anti-dairy, anti-cooked foods  with specific separated forums for different subgenres of raw diet etc.)which was fine by me. Unfortunately, I then , much later on, started encountering all sorts of highly suspect claims from ZCers re pasteurised butter or cooked meats or grainfed meats etc. etc. being supposedly "OK" or even, shockingly, considered healthy by some, along with comments by some that carbs were evil etc., resulting, understandably, in a sort of minor backlash on my part. Another reason for my stance, of course, is that this board was always meant to cater to anybody from the RVAF community, be they from the Instincto or Primal Diet groups or whatever(with admittedly a strong bias in favour of palaeo) so I didn't want those to be scared away.

[yon yonson]

Awesome, I thought it was just the one by me since it's in a yuppie town that's probably afraid of fat. Do you know if you're getting grass-fed,organic or conventional? Or like the saying beggers can't be choosers. You're just happy cause it's free food?

no no, it's definitely grass fed. i don't think i'd take it otherwise

[PaleoPhil]

As for doubtful claims re not noticing the harm of carbs,

You may think they're doubtful, but I lived it, and I wasn't experiencing them from being adapted to ZC, because I hadn't even tried ZC yet. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding and I should explain more: I eventually noticed the very gradually increasing harm but didn't connect it with carbs and it only became fully clear in retrospect. At first I thought that it was an inevitable plateau or falloff after initial amazing improvements from standard Paleo, or maybe insufficient exercise or work stress, etc.--a lot of the external causes that people look to when they don't realize that their diet is undermining their health. However, I found that increased exercise, stress reduction, and other common approaches didn't help much. Eventually the symptoms got bad enough that it woke me up into realizing that something was possibly still majorly messed up about my diet and I thought back to what I was eating when I was doing best in the early days (lots of meats like bison and wild fish). I found that each gradual reduction in carbs, while still eating a significant quantity, produced further benefits. For all I know, I may still not be eating optimally for my body's needs, as hindsight is a much better judge than foresight, but I'm doing the best I can. Surely if you expect me to give you the benefit of the doubt about your claims about problems with cooked meats then fairness should result in likewise giving me the benefit of the doubt about the problems I experienced with carbs before going completely ZC/carnivorous.

Similiarly, you most likely developed a serious intolerance to any and all carbs as a result of perhaps overeating too many refined carbs.

I also suspect this is a factor, but it's speculation at this point. Interestingly, when I switched to nearly all whole grains my health problems worsened rather than improved. My point was that adapting to ZC was not what caused me to have problems with carbs. If you suspect past damage from refined carbs as the culprit, then at least we can agree that ZC adaptation was not the cause.

Re ZCers/rawists:- There isn't really any disagreement between ZCers and rawists, just between some of the hardcore ZCers and myself. For one thing, raw ZCers form only a very  tiny minority among rawists(and even among raw-animal-food-oriented dieters) so there is little reason to quarrel.

I agree there is little reason to quarrel, but I have noticed some rivalry between the ZC forum vs. this one and Geoff Purcell's forum as well as a bit here between raw ZC/carnivore and raw omnivore, although I think the rivalry within our forum is more friendly than those between the forums seem to be. I think the source of friction is that each group claims to be eating in a more ancient, natural way, but have somewhat different approaches, so it's understandable that each group doesn't want the others to lay claim to being the "true" representation of what is natural and ancestral. The fact that I've married the approaches may explain why I notice the fuss more and am bothered a bit by it.

In thinking some more about it, I think I'm thankful overall for the friendly rivalries and debates within this forum because it makes for more interesting posts than at the forums where there is little tolerance of dissent, resulting in bland uniformity. I suppose it's a difficult balance between creating an environment of shared values without stifling real discussion.

When I first collaborated in starting this forum...

Thanks for the background. That explains a lot. It would be good for newbies like me if there was a forum history posted somewhere. I have noticed the pro-raw-dairy camp here more since I did that poll and I've tried to be considerate by not quoting WAP when it's not necessary. I even overreacted once to pro RD stuff here and to pro dairy stuff at another blog, so I can sympathize with you. I think that pro dairy (especially pro raw dairy) views are so common in raw meat and low/zero carb forums and blogs largely because of the influence of Atkins, the WAPF and Dr. Mercola, who were early influential forces in these dieting communities and/or on the Internet, and because of the continual funding sources they have to keep spreading the word. Those who rely more on book revenues, like Audette, Cordain, Vonderplanitz, Taubes, etc., tend to make a brief big splash and then decrease in influence (although Dr. Cordain's continuing research should enable him to keep a decent presence until his next book or other major public event and Vonderplanitz and Taubes have been trying to keep their momentum going with interviews on TV, the Internet and in periodicals).