Fructose

[MrBBQ]

Hmmm, there is a context for healing and I do not know if I'm in context. I agree about priorities though - maybe minerals are being deposited on my legs and spine, who knows?!

[PaleoPhil]

Of the raw meat eaters I probably eat the most fruit daily/weekly (a guess from what I've read so far). I had 4 mm black spots on the surface of both last molars. It wasn't deep but there was some damage mostly because of ben&jerry's icecream/haagen dazs and cola from SAD era. The damage did not get worse on 100% fruitarian diet. I only experienced some mild sensitivity when eating dates. ...

Yes, after being reminded of fruitarian dental issues by this thread I checked out a couple fruitarian forums yesterday to see how they're getting along and read a fruitarian complaining about dental problems while eating dates (which are extremely sugary in their typically dried form) and the others told him to keep right on eating the dates and other sugary fruits anyway, of course. Whenever someone reports problems from eating sugary fruits the answer is always to eat more sugary fruits. Of course, it's the answer to just about every problem in fruitarian forums.

811 fruitarians don't tend to recommend eating a lot of nuts because they believe fats should be limited to 10% of total calories, so it would be quite a stretch to attribute their dental problems to nuts. If they continue to have problems then they tend to recommend upping the calories (from sugary fruits). As a matter of fact, whenever anyone reports a problem they tend to recommend cutting out other foods like nuts and eating just sugary fruits. I've never seen any diet forums report as much dental problems as fruitarian forums--811 forums in particular. Once in a while one of them will notice the connection between the numerous dental problems and the high fruit consumption and consider reducing fruit intake, as with the date eater, but the others will talk them out of it. It's strange that more don't notice it--maybe they're just afraid of being criticized for making the connection?

Fruits aggravated my dental issues and dry skin and brought back some cystic acne even when I ate no nuts or any other plant food with them, but it seems like iodine is helping some. Actionhero, do you know if you have good iodine intake, adrenal function and thyroid function and do you think that could explain why you tolerate fruits fairly well? I'm amazed by the people who can do 811 for years without their teeth falling out (though I notice that many of them report using electric toothbrushes, waterpiks, etc.).

[actionhero]

Actionhero, do you know if you have good iodine intake, adrenal function and thyroid function and do you think that could explain why you tolerate fruits fairly well? I'm amazed by the people who can do 811 for years without their teeth falling out.

Well, if we're supposed to eat fruit (the one half of our diet, raw animals being the other) then it is only logical that one should have no problems with ripe fresh fruit provided that the body is in good health. Most of us have at least 25+ years of SAD damage to heal, we should not forget that fact. I don't know about iodine and thyroid function but when I used to eat greens like spinach and other vegetable crap I started to get cold at night and this only stopped when I cut out all greens. But this was in my fruitarian period.

Teeth problems are indeed one of the most common problems fruitarians experience along with feeling cold (we're tropical animals, it's normal), hair falling out (you're detoxing too fast, you need more cal from sweet fruit), disappearing sex drives (this is normal because we stopped eating evil hormone meat) and lots of women stop having periods just like anorexics. Most of these problems are because of lack of raw animal fat which is needed for optimal body chemistry and hormonal function (avocados and nuts don't seem to help). They come up with the most ridiculous rationalizations as to why they are having these symptoms. Full tilt delusion galore!

[MaximilianKohler]

Well, I am a natural bodybuilder/powerlifter, so I do not do zero carb dies. I eat about 3500-3800 calories a day just to maintain my LBM and fitness levels (I lift 5 days a week). Of the 3500-3800 calories that I consume, about 30% come from protein, 40% come from fat (mostly animal fat, filled in with some avocado and coconut fat), and 30% come from carbs. Sometimes my carb intake will go as high as 35-40% on special days or events, but it usually stays around the lower/moderate range (which is 30% or less). My main carb source is very simple: wild, raw honey and organic (mostly wild crafted/organic) fruit. I usually eat my raw honey post-workout or right before lifting weights only. The raw honey for my post-workout shake/meal is needed for an insulin spike in order to pull my body out of a catabolic state (lifting weights is catabolic). I try to make this low fat, high carb shake/meal.  So, for example, if I am consuming 3500 calories, with the macronutrient ratios adjusted for above, then 30% of my calories from carbohydrates would equal about 1050 calories. So, one serving of the raw honey that I eat contains about 60 calories and I try to aim for at least a few hundred grams of carbs for an insulin spike, so I'd say about 480 calories come from honey and then a few hundred more from wild bananas and/or berries, in conjunction with a raw lean protein source. Usually, when I am in a rush, I just throw in a bunch of organic eggs and blend them up with honey and fruit and that is enough for my muscles to prevent catabolism.

I heard on mercola.com that if you eat any type of sugar - fruits included - after your workout it completely stops your HGH(human growth hormone) production. Have you heard of this?

[PaleoPhil]

.... Teeth problems are indeed one of the most common problems fruitarians experience along with feeling cold (we're tropical animals, it's normal), hair falling out (you're detoxing too fast, you need more cal from sweet fruit), disappearing sex drives (this is normal because we stopped eating evil hormone meat) and lots of women stop having periods just like anorexics.

Heh, heh. Yeah, you did well in listing some of the most common of the problems they experience and the excuses they give for them. No matter what the problem, the answer is always "eat more sweet fruit", like a religious mantra.

For me, eating lots of animal fat still doesn't enable me to eat much meat and I'm a little curious about what the differences are among those who can. I think we all experienced some damage from the SAD. Dr. Harris didn't have that much damage from SAD, yet he still has trouble consuming more than a little fruit. I guess it's a mystery at this time.

[TylerDurden]

I heard on mercola.com that if you eat any type of sugar - fruits included - after your workout it completely stops your HGH(human growth hormone) production. Have you heard of this?

Sounds like a load of rubbish. One thing I noticed was that I did better re muscle-gain when weightlifting and eating a few raw carbs at the same time. During my RZC phase, I would end up as weak as a kitten, though.

[cliff]

Sounds like a load of rubbish. One thing I noticed was that I did better re muscle-gain when weightlifting and eating a few raw carbs at the same time. During my RZC phase, I would end up as weak as a kitten, though.

Its true actually, HGH is elevated after a workout and insulin is an antagonist to hgh so more insulin means less hgh.  Some people recommend waiting 30 mins after a workout to eat carbs to get some GH production going, waiting longer then 30 mins is detrimental to muscle growth tho.

[TylerDurden]

Its true actually, HGH is elevated after a workout and insulin is an antagonist to hgh so more insulin means less hgh.  Some people recommend waiting 30 mins after a workout to eat carbs to get some GH production going, waiting longer then 30 mins is detrimental to muscle growth tho.

The trouble is that muscle-rebuilding is a bit more complex than as portrayed above. Besides, one only has to look at RZC athletes to see that they just don't compare to standard(non-drug-using) weightlifters and athletes who eat carbs.

[cliff]

The trouble is that muscle-rebuilding is a bit more complex than as portrayed above. Besides, one only has to look at RZC athletes to see that they just don't compare to standard(non-drug-using) weightlifters and athletes who eat carbs.

I agree 100%, just saying that what mercola says is true.

Ketogenic diets generally don't work that great for body building unless your trying to cut.  The anabolic diet supposedly works very well tho, its 5 days of VLC/ZC and 2 days of high carbs to carboload.

[MaximilianKohler]

Damn I have no clue what you guys are talking about x_x

I'm hoping to eventually start lifting weights again if this raw diet can get me healthy, do you have any general recommendations and/or articles to read? I love fruit, I've just heard a lot of bad things about it like it's effects on insulin, HGH, nervous system, etc.. Is it pretty much necessary if I'm going to be lifting weights on a raw meat/fat diet?

[cliff]

If your gonna lift weights your gonna need some sort of carb source.  Some might not agree but I personally don't think fruit is a very good carb source for post workout, your muscles can use very little if any fructose to replenish glycogen.  I personally eat a meal of cooked sweet potatoes post workout, I don't personally follow the whole all cooking is evil philosophy.  Really it could go both ways, I cook the sweet potato but I don't get the massive fructose overload. Pick your poison I guess?

[Hans89]

Bananas could be a good choice also.

[MaximilianKohler]

what about green leafy vegetable juice, maybe with eggs too? or an avocado+egg shake?

[djr_81]

If your gonna lift weights your gonna need some sort of carb source. 

No you don't.
Someone eating low or close to zero carb can lift just like someone eating omnivorous.
You might not bulk at the same rate but that wasn't the question.

[cliff]

what about green leafy vegetable juice, maybe with eggs too? or an avocado+egg shake?

Green leafy vegetables have very little carbs, same with eggs.  Stick to fruit for Post workout carbs if you want to stay raw

[cliff]

No you don't.
Someone eating low or close to zero carb can lift just like someone eating omnivorous.
You might not bulk at the same rate but that wasn't the question.

I should have phrased it as if your gonna lift weights and recover right you need a carb source.  Sure you can lift on rzc(it doesn't make you a cripple does it?) but I don't think its optimal nor do most others who lift weights.  Muscles need glycogen and depriving them of it will hinder gains.  That's not to say that you could eat higher fat and adapt to using more fat for fuel but I still think your gonna need carbs eventually(i.e. anabolic diet)

[MaximilianKohler]

I would be lifting mostly for strength and athleticism, not to put on large amounts of mass. What do you think would be appropriate for me to eat before & after? I don't want to eat any fruit(avocados not included) as I've heard too many bad things about it.

[djr_81]

I should have phrased it as if your gonna lift weights and recover right you need a carb source.  Sure you can lift on rzc(it doesn't make you a cripple does it?) but I don't think its optimal nor do most others who lift weights.  Muscles need glycogen and depriving them of it will hinder gains.  That's not to say that you could eat higher fat and adapt to using more fat for fuel but I still think your gonna need carbs eventually(i.e. anabolic diet)

I'll agree to disagree then.
I personally feel the human body is dynamic enough to adjust to whatever fuel source we provide it and build functional strength so long as simple things are met (a surplus of energy in, adequate protein to build, and enough sleep).

[cliff]

I would be lifting mostly for strength and athleticism, not to put on large amounts of mass. What do you think would be appropriate for me to eat before & after? I don't want to eat any fruit(avocados not included) as I've heard too many bad things about it.

For athletism and strength your gonna need some sort of carbs to be optimal imo.  Don't be scared of fruit nothing wrong with eating it post work out or early morning.  Pure glucose(starches) sources are the most optimal but these require cooking.

You might get by on vlc doing athletic endeavors but it depends on what you do, how hardcore you go and how much do it.

[cliff]

I personally feel the human body is dynamic enough to adjust to whatever fuel source we provide it and build functional strength so long as simple things are met (a surplus of energy in, adequate protein to build, and enough sleep).

I would like to believe this is true but most people don't experience this.

[MaximilianKohler]

clif do you have to cook the sweet potatoes? also, do you eat them before or after the workout? and how long before or after? thanks

[cliff]

clif do you have to cook the sweet potatoes? also, do you eat them before or after the workout? and how long before or after? thanks

I would cook them and eat them only after a workout.  I just gave them up yesterday tho because they started to constipate me, its weird at first it was all good then about 2 weeks in major constipation lol.  Clearly not adapted that well to starchy tubers.

I'm gonna be experimenting with plantains and green bananas soon so Ill keep you posted.

[MaximilianKohler]

So you only cooked them out of preference?

Oh, I see you said before "Pure glucose(starches) sources are the most optimal but these require cooking." Sweet potato is pure glucose? Why do they require cooking?

[cliff]

Oh, I see you said before "Pure glucose(starches) sources are the most optimal but these require cooking." Sweet potato is pure glucose? Why do they require cooking?

Sweet potato is not pure glucose but its primarily glucose. Most raw starchy foods are only around 50-60% digestible, when you cook them they become around 95% digestible.

Some raw vegan people eat them raw dehydrated but I'm not really into that.

[CHK91]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjG5t4LN0jA

This interview had good information about fructose and effect on humans. I couldn't believe that I actually listened to the entire thing. It was worth it though.