Fructose

[yon yonson]

hey guys, all this talk about teeth and fillings has got me intrigued. i got two cavities from when i was raw vegan that they found over a year and a half ago but didn't fill at the time. i just went to the dentist again and he said i should get them filled even though they hadn't gotten any worse over the last year and a half. i asked what they'd fill it with and all he could say was that it was some kind of 'composite' which im guessing is some kind of plastic. anyways, at least it's not a mercury amalgam. im really hesitant to get them filled because they haven't ever caused me any pain. what are your opinions? i already scheduled an appointment for the 25th...

[Hans89]

Why are nuts so bad for the teeth?

[MrBBQ]

Is the dentine in the cavities hard and painless with no sensitivity - if so, no need to fill...Just keep very clean by swishing oils like virgin coconut oil, neem oil, tea tree oil before brushing teeth.

Do you eat organ meats every day, in moderation? Do you have access to vitamin D, either photosynthesised or supplemented to the tune of ~5,000-10,000 IU? What about vitamin K2 (WAP's "activator X") intake from livers, pastured eggs, butter oil and LifeExtension's synthetic Super K (1g per cap)? What about bon-building minerals for hurrying re-mineralisation along?

Fat uptake is important for assimilating fat-soluble vitamins A, D, E, K2 - bile sufficiency is naturally part of the dynamic.

Also, WAPF reckons that glycine, proline and hydroxyproline (from collagen/gelatine) are very valuable for bone building, along with the fat-soluble vitamins and abundance of minerals. Bone/cartilage broths would be ideal, except they're cooked and contain the potentially excitotoxic neurotransmitter glutamic acid in free form - that can initiate a nasty glutamate over-excitation in conditions of sensitivity (I'm sensitive, probably for various reasons like a history of PUFA abuse).

Maybe bone meal washed down with french green clay in water is a good source of minerals.

Also, balancing the endocrine system could be another dimension in healing teeth/bones. Whatever you do, stay away from x-rays of the teeth/jaw - I reckon that's one of the things that weakened my tooth structure.

[MrBBQ]

Nuts are high in n-6 PUFAs and potentially rancid PUFAs (from unshelled nuts) - PUFAs have been implicated in insulin resistance, so the impact of sugars on the mineral balance is greater, hence calcium excretion.

Nuts are high in phytic acid/phytates, which are not really neutralised that much by soaking in water - hence mineral insufficiency for their energy provision.

Nuts are high in phosphorous, which promotes calcium excretion without the necessary vitamins to keep the minerals in the protein matrix of the skeletal tissue.

As a source of free radicals, the PUFAs in nuts deplete the anti-oxidant vitamin E and increase lipid peroxidation markers.

Maybe nuts are useful on the odd occasion but every day as almond milk or nut butter is a recipe for demineralisation - I speak from experience. ;-(

[Hans89]

Thanks for elaborating on that.

[yon yonson]

Is the dentine in the cavities hard and painless with no sensitivity - if so, no need to fill...Just keep very clean by swishing oils like virgin coconut oil, neem oil, tea tree oil before brushing teeth.

um, im not well versed in this stuff (dentine), but absolutely no pain or sensitivity on those teeth. i'll look into those oils. thanks

Do you eat organ meats every day, in moderation? Do you have access to vitamin D, either photosynthesised or supplemented to the tune of ~5,000-10,000 IU? What about vitamin K2 (WAP's "activator X") intake from livers, pastured eggs, butter oil and LifeExtension's synthetic Super K (1g per cap)? What about bon-building minerals for hurrying re-mineralisation along?

i eat organs pretty regularly: heart, liver, kidney, testicle. i get plenty of sun but not sure of my dietary intake of vitamin d. i eat lots of grass fed marrow and fat. and occaissionaly wild boar fat (which i hear is one of the richest sources of vitamin d). i also eat pastured eggs a couple times a week.

i've also been eating bone meal every once in a while along with the cartiledge i find on raw chickens.

so, no filling? i don't really think i need it. especially if it hasn't gotten worse in over a year. and honestly, i think it even got a little better because my dentist seemed a little confused when he looked at the new xrays (doh!). he seemed to be reassuring himself that i still needed them: 'yep, they [the cavities] aren't gone yet'. i don't know, the way he said it implied that they were diminishing...

[yon yonson]

does anyone know of any studies that show that composite fillings are harmful? or anecdotal information?

[PaleoPhil]

...PaleoPhil and Lex (maybe others) have sealed/healed their enamel with raw zero-carb, although it's just not possible for me without negative effects, particularly constipation. I eat organ meats and minced fat with chunky meat every day (also, pastured egg yolks and high-vitamin butter oil with a D3 supplement), which has made a slight different, but not much - I think it takes time. I tried bone broths, which made a big difference but they trigger headaches (due to free glutamates in the gelatine). ....

I don't think it's necessary to go ZC to experience significant dental benefits. I don't agree with Stephan Guyuenet and Weston Price on everything, but this is one area where they are especially helpful. Fat-soluble nutrients like vitamins A, D3, and K2, plus minerals (especially calcium, magnesium and potassium) and avoiding liquid and concentrated forms of sugars like fruit juices and dried fruits seems to be especially helpful with dental issues. The fat soluble nutrients are especially lacking in diets which are heavy on fruits (especially acidic fruits like citrus and pineapple; whereas fatty, low-sugar fruits like avocado and coconut appear to be less of a problem and may even be helpful), grains, legumes or sugars and light on animal fats, meats, organs, fish, eggs and young greens. Not surprisingly, one of the worst diets for dental health appears to be a low-fat fruitarian diet (like Doug Graham's 80-10-10 nonsense). If you peruse the forums that advocate such diets you'll find plenty of complaints about dental problems (and much in the way of denials and advice to eat still more "sugary fruits"--that's right, as bizarre as it seems, they tend to advocate sugary fruits).

[MrBBQ]

I believe the emphasis is on ripe fruits, with higher sugar content and lower acid content - you can even taste this difference in vine-ripened tomatoes with their sweetness (although I don't grow/eat nightshades anymore).

If I leave fruits to go softer, I feel much less reaction in the mouth with the sodium bicarbonate pre-rinse, so it's important to ripen fruits before eating, even if it's not on the vine or whatever.

Also, the sugary fruits are preferable because they actually taste appealing, whereas coconuts (nice) and avocados (high in n-6 fats!) are pretty boring after the first few mouthfuls. Maybe home-blended coconut milk (or coconut cream) is preferable without all that shitty fibre.

[TylerDurden]

Thanks guys, thanks so much!

I so much appreciate all this info! 


Tyler, you said you tried "instinkto". Did you tried cassia, too? I was eating cassia every day for about two years. Gave me very loose bowel movements etc. I wonder if this also demineralized me and so my teeth's too?
  about the raw dairy almost killing you.. do you mind if I ask, what happend!?
Inger

  No, I didn't ever try cassia. I wasn't properly Instinkto as such as I was eating smoked meats and the like(the books I got were very vague and I'd thought cold-smoked meats were OK, and didn't realise how processed the sushi boxes were etc.)

As for the raw dairy, it was a disaster. At first, I tried the primal diet minus the raw dairy and the raw veggie-juice as I didn't know of any source of raw dairy and didn't have a juicer at the time. This resulted in some health-benefits. I then added in the raw dairy and suddenly found that all sorts of nasty health-problems that had gotten slightly better, came back with a vengeance(crippling stomach-aches, bloodshot eyes, chronic fatigue, teeth about to fall out etc. etc.). Even worse, I became heavily addicted to the taste of raw dairy(the addictive opioids in dairy being responsible) and I would feel nauseated when trying to eat raw meats so that I could only eat very small amounts of them each day. I reckon that if I had continued on the primal diet, I would have been dead within a year or so given the nutritional deficiencies caused by raw dairy(and previous raw vegan experiences) - the decline each week was that bad.  In a way, though, the primal diet helped me to realise that dairy, raw or pasteurised, was the prime reason for all the health-problems I'd had in the past.

[MrBBQ]

Touche on the dairy - same for me, whether pasteurised, raw or fermented...Teeth almost falling out...

One needs calcium/magnesium/phosphorous in balance, ideally.

[wodgina]

All my fillings fillings ended up all falling out (I had 3 I think) over the last 4 years of eating raw meat

got them when I was around 22 when I used to go out and drink beam and coke and pass out without brushing my teeth.

The cavities sort of filled in and smoothed over. I actually lost a big chunk of my canine and thats filled as if the tooth knew how to regrow!? 

Quite amazing and at the time I didn't believe it myself but since Lex's bone scan and seeing Action hero turn into a new person I can believe it.

[MrBBQ]

@wodgina: You're RZC, right? Did you do anything special like organ meats every day as well?

No fruit acids for a long time must allow the teeth to completely recover from abuse, along with the constant vitamins.

Did you pat attention to mineralising, or just the minerals from the meat/fat/organs?

Sour mash is at least a good cause for destroying teeth though, unlike girly fruits!

[wodgina]

@wodgina: You're RZC, right? Did you do anything special like organ meats every day as well?

No fruit acids for a long time must allow the teeth to completely recover from abuse, along with the constant vitamins.

Did you pat attention to mineralising, or just the minerals from the meat/fat/organs?

Sour mash is at least a good cause for destroying teeth though, unlike girly fruits!

ha for sure

I've gone off the rails from RZC days ( 6 months ago) Cheats etc. I'm at 95% raw now.

I currently eat organs/marrow etc as well as jerky as I did in the past and tried azomite for a while not sure if this helped may try it again.

I do miss being able to drink sour mash and bounce back like I used to! but I know now if I drink  I will have to endure days of terrible anxiety and heart palpitations.

[Ioanna]

wodg - incredible about your teeth!!

are you saying this is diet alone?, or with supplements?

also, are you able to tolerate fruits any better these days? or will you be going back to zero carb?

[PaleoPhil]

...Also, the sugary fruits are preferable because they actually taste appealing, whereas coconuts (nice) and avocados (high in n-6 fats!) are pretty boring after the first few mouthfuls. Maybe home-blended coconut milk (or coconut cream) is preferable without all that shitty fibre.

The fruits with higher sugar content are indeed tastier, but my point was regarding dental effects. I find that sugary fruits, which I normally eat ripe, have negative dental effects on me, and even many 811 diet advocates--the biggest proponents of fruit of all--report the same negative effects.

[MrBBQ]

I agree - it certainly seems to imply that fruit wasn't around most of the time...or maybe those 811ers with the problems had warped blood sugar control system dynamics (from excess PUFAs etc.).

[MrBBQ]

I've been reading a couple of interesting things today about refined fructose overdose (like in soda pops). Apparently, some propose that high triglycerides can prevent leptin crossing the blood brain barrier, meaning the leptin signals coming from the fat cells to say "stop eating" don't make it to the hypothalamus, so the obese ones keep guzzling soda pops and muching on whatever junk calories are close by, never fulfilling their leptin-controlled appetite.

We're talking superphysiological doses from HFCS in quantities, rather than that coming from a whole fruit - maybe something like apple juice is also problematic with its much more unbalanced fructose:glucose ratio (although a whole apple would not be problematic).

Hence, refinement, just as cooking, is not what reconciles with our true nature.

[MrBBQ]

Another thing I was wondering...Any kind of sugar in my mouth causes nerve pain in my cavitated teeth.

Is it possible that sugar in the mouth can glycate tissues (i.e. the protein matrix) in the tooth if it doesn't have a protective enamel/dentine barrier? Maybe this is why RZC is necessary for tooth healing, as opposed to even VLC...

Does anyone have commentary? Are there any RVAFers that have healed tooth enamel, or is it just RZCers? I don't mean increase in bone density, I mean healing teeth...

[TylerDurden]

All I can say is that going for a raw omnivorous diet and, more importantly getting rid of all dairy raw or otherwise from my diet, helped my teeth recover - they are now  very strong indeed. They had become very loose and very thin on SAD diets. By the time I went rawpalaeo, my teeth were so loose, with bleeding gums etc.(I could easily push my teeth back and forth a bit), that I was absolutely terrified of eating raw solid meats - I would have to buy raw ground meats instead so as to avoid even the slightest need to chew properly. And occasionally trying to eat things like raw tongue was an absolute nightmare as I was in constant fear my teeth would fall out. And there are other raw omnivores, even cooked WAPFers, who have claimed to have healed their teeth without going RZC.


Indeed, ironically, my own experiments with RZC led to my teeth rapidly deteriorating in health, becoming much thinner and weaker than before, so it was just as well I stopped those experiments in time.

[wodgina]

wodg - incredible about your teeth!!

are you saying this is diet alone?, or with supplements?

also, are you able to tolerate fruits any better these days? or will you be going back to zero carb?

Diet alone although I did take Azomite for a while.

I can tolerate heaps of things once I start cheating, like I can hold my mobile phone to my ear which is painful when I eat 100% raw zero carb.

and yes I'm going back to the 100% raw zero carb thingy, got dandruff back plus feel so shitty

[actionhero]

Does anyone have commentary? Are there any RVAFers that have healed tooth enamel, or is it just RZCers? I don't mean increase in bone density, I mean healing teeth...

Of the raw meat eaters I probably eat the most fruit daily/weekly (a guess from what I've read so far). I had 4 mm black spots on the surface of both last molars. It wasn't deep but there was some damage mostly because of ben&jerry's icecream/haagen dazs and cola from SAD era. The damage did not get worse on 100% fruitarian diet. I only experienced some mild sensitivity when eating dates. Others in the fruitarian/80/10/10 world were less lucky and their forums are filled with horror stories. Having said that there are also people who have been on that diet for years and never had any teeth problems.

But in my case they certainly were not healing, even when I introduced cooked meat later. Right now, six months after starting raw meat the black spot on my right molar is gone and slowly filling up. On my left side the black spot has shrunk to 2 mm and become thinner. I never went zero carb for more than one week and eat about 500-900 cal from fruit daily. Some days even 1800-2200 cal if I am doing a fruit only day. I do a zero carb day every couple days but not because of problems with teeth. So it's not just RZCers that are getting these results but my guess is they might be healing/regenerating much faster on zero carb. 

[Inger]

I believe it is the nuts that hurts your teeth's heaviest. Fruitarians eat little if any nuts, that might help. Dried fruits are also bad, I think.

I ate a lot of nuts at the beginning.  

[MrBBQ]

@Inger: I agree, completely. I ventured down this same path of nut munching, although the idea is to learn and adapt through direct experience - muss es sein? es muss sein!

@actionhero: Thanks for relating your experience. Do you consume fruits that're fully ripened, so as to minimise organic acids on the teeth? I've tested many fruits by swishing sodium bicarbonate in my mouth before hand and feeling the fizz sensation for different fruits, although there are few that actually don't create a fizz - ripe mango, ripe papaya, ripe melons, err...Most berries create a fizz and especially citrus fruit, of course! I try to avoid acidic fruit to spare my weak tooth enamel.

I have transparency at the edges of some of my teeth and very tiny chips due to various accidents, so maybe I was malnourished from early times. I eat liver, heart, kidney, marrow, bone meal + clay, muscle meats, different cuts of fat (minced or chunky) up to maybe 300g per day. I have noticed the teeth/jaw becoming more solid, but the cavities did not improve and the transparency/chips are still there with active nerve pain in some teeth. I also supplement D3 and K2, as well as consuming raw butter oil (the only neolithic food I consume in small quantities with no reactions).

I've had straightening braces to pull my massive fangs down (I'm a true carnivore!) and some x-rays, so maybe they harmed my teeth - who knows? I swish my mouth twice per day with VCO+neem before brushing.

Maybe it will take a bit longer than a year or so for me to undo the damage, but I'm here for the ride! It seems like the best approach is just to stick to the plan and enjoy what may transpire.

[actionhero]

Do you consume fruits that're fully ripened, so as to minimise organic acids on the teeth?

I do eat fully ripe fruit but I do this because that is how fruit digests best. I've eaten up to 4 kg of oranges in a day and did not have any teeth problems. But yeah there are lots of people who will get problems from even one orange. Only dates and raisins gave me sensitivity problems but I avoid dried fruit anyway and eat only fresh ripe fruit. Tooth healing is indeed possible even if you eat fruit but if they are giving you problems it might be a good idea avoid them or stick to those that you do well on. We don't know what healing priorities our bodies have. Your body might have other more important healing work to do so this is maybe why the teeth regeneration is a bit slow. What we can do is to give it the best possible raw material, nutrients and building blocks. The rest is up to the body to do its magic.