Different fat

[Raw Kyle]

If rendering were cooking, it would be called cooking. Beware infection with TD's obsession.

If frying, steaming, baking, sauteing, broiling, boiling, searing and microwaving were cooking, they would be called cooking...wrong. Cooking is a broad term that refers to many sub actions, including rendering and all of the above.

[PaleoPhil]

rendering = drying
drying = preserving

Dried beef fat, known as tallow, does not go rancid.

Rendering also separates the fat from connective tissue/proteins, which are poisonous after heating, as TD so verbosely points out.

If you keep fat at 40C it becomes rancid; Inevitably.

Please search Lex Rooker's post on this - he has done the research

I render below 40C. I don't render to preserve, and I suspect the other folks who render below 40C don't do it to preserve either. I do it to make a tastier product that I will eat more of, so I don't lose weight and am not tempted by modern foods, and so I have a convenience food I can grabu to instantly eat at home or bring on the road and to work and other social situations and eat without freaking people out.  They would probably freak if they saw me eating what is clearly raw steak or raw ground beef and raw suet, but I can camouflage it by dipping jerky into tallow or covering raw ground beef with tallow or making it into pemmican. They don't know what it is then and I can just say pemmican or jerky with dip or a traditional Native American food and they aren't particularly interested at that point and so far have not inquired further--except one person asked me what the dip was and I said "You don't want to know" and laughed, and she never inquired further.

I do small batches and eat them up before they can go bad, as I have a local health food store that sells cheap grassfed suet. Lex makes huge batches of pemmican and has to preserve them, which is why he renders above 40C.

I'm still trying to work out the best method of doing this and am interested in any effective processes that others develop to render suet below 40C. I also continue to eat some raw suet and am hoping I eventually develop a taste for it. I'd also like to buy a heavy duty meat grinder so I can grind my suet and bones, but my budget is tight right now, especially after buying expensive Dr. Ron's foodlements.

Many people who go RPD or ZC are trying to lose weight, rather than gain it, so they eat only one or two meals a day and many are pleased by resulting weight loss. I find when I do that, that I also lose weight, but it's not good in my case, because I'm trying to gain and maintain.

[William]

A butcher can grind suet for you; I got it that way once, but it was the kind of fat that reeked of DPW.

[Michael]

Phil - Why would you need a specialist grinder for raw suet?  I simply throw big chunks of raw suet into my food processor with the chopping blades attached and pulse it for around a minute.  It works wonderfully well and produces a product resembling grated parmesan cheese.  I then sprinkle this over my beef or lamb and enjoy!  I'm not sure that I could stomach suet any other way but it's no problem eating it like this.

Likewise, however, I am also still wondering about the possibilities of melting suet at low temp for making 'raw' pemmican.  As I mentioned on another thread, my attempts to melt it in my dehydrator have, thus far, proved fruitless.  I avoid cooked fats so have not made pemmican yet. 

Does anyone know the melting point of suet?

[raw]

  you can render under 40 C.  You must first grind the fat, as with a food processor.  then heat to 40 C.  At that temp. the liquid will have already started to separate.  The rest can be separated with a pressing or centrifugal spinning.   I can say more if needed.  And that I know of no one actually doing the second part of this operation (the pressing or spinning, to remove the remaining available liquid portion.)  If it was commercially available, I would certainly buy tons of it myself.  Maybe someone will pick it up someday.   Hey, they did it with olive oil, and now with salmon or fish oil. 

hi van, i'm thinking about grass fed beef fat. regular commercial beef fat is very dangerous. once you mention about "back fat' in another content. what is that? thanks.

[raw]

Phil - Why would you need a specialist grinder for raw suet?  I simply throw big chunks of raw suet into my food processor with the chopping blades attached and pulse it for around a minute.  It works wonderfully well and produces a product resembling grated parmesan cheese.  I then sprinkle this over my beef or lamb and enjoy!  I'm not sure that I could stomach suet any other way but it's no problem eating it like this.

Likewise, however, I am also still wondering about the possibilities of melting suet at low temp for making 'raw' pemmican.  As I mentioned on another thread, my attempts to melt it in my dehydrator have, thus far, proved fruitless.  I avoid cooked fats so have not made pemmican yet. 

Does anyone know the melting point of suet?

i like your posts. by the way, your food processor from which brand?

[RawZi]

mention about "back fat' in another content. what is that?

    I'll interject.  As I understand it, animals grow a layer of fat in Winter, and use it up in Summer.  Also, as an animal ages over the years, it grows a layer of fat under its hide/skin on the animal's back.  It's this fat.  For me much better than suet so far.  I just discovered it though, and haven't gotten either fresh yet.

[Michael]

Thanks for the kind compliments raw.  My food processor is a Krups KA850 as seen here:
 http://www.krups.co.uk/All+Products/Food+Processors/Products/Food+Processor+-+Serie+8000/Food+Processor+-+Serie+8000.htm

It was not the cheapest available food processor but is a very high quality machine.  However, for the purposes of grinding raw suet I expect any similar type of food processor would be quite adequate.

Quote from: van on 05 October 2009, 21:23:23

you can render under 40 C.  You must first grind the fat, as with a food processor.  then heat to 40 C.  At that temp. the liquid will have already started to separate.  The rest can be separated with a pressing or centrifugal spinning.   I can say more if needed.

van, can you elaborate on this process.  Are you stating that the melting point of raw suet is under 40 C?  I've tried melting ground suet for many hours in my dehydrator at temperatures up to 120 F with no evidence of reaching melting point whatsoever.  Of course, this could be a simple case of the food molecules themselves not reaching the desired temperature.  Similarly, I recall from my raw vegan experiences that the Excalibur company in collaboration with vegan 'guru' Victoras Kulvinskas demonstrating that foods could be dehydrated at temperatures up to 145 F for the initial couple of hours as it's only the surrounding air temperature reaching this maximum during this period.

How do you heat your suet van whilst ensuring, absolutely, that it does not surpass 40 C?

[van]

  I think it is the fat that sits on top of the area of meat called new yorks and ribeyes.    But not exactly sure.  Have been pointed out with carcasses that it sits on the back of the animal. 

[PaleoPhil]

Phil - Why would you need a specialist grinder for raw suet?  I simply throw big chunks of raw suet into my food processor with the chopping blades attached and pulse it for around a minute.  It works wonderfully well and produces a product resembling grated parmesan cheese.  I then sprinkle this over my beef or lamb and enjoy!  I'm not sure that I could stomach suet any other way but it's no problem eating it like this.

Cool, thanks! I was actually thinking of the grinder more for the bones and for making Lex's type of mix some day, since it seems to work well for him, but I'm glad there's another method for the suet. Up till now I had been chopping it finely with my sharp Henkel's kitchen knife, but that sounds like a better method. I have a semi-high powered blender that I fine works even better than food processors, so it should do the job. I'm surprised the suet doesn't heat up and glob together or something.

Likewise, however, I am also still wondering about the possibilities of melting suet at low temp for making 'raw' pemmican.  As I mentioned on another thread, my attempts to melt it in my dehydrator have, thus far, proved fruitless.  I avoid cooked fats so have not made pemmican yet.  

Does anyone know the melting point of suet?

It's very low. When it gets into the upper 70s indoors my tallow starts melting on its own and I find that suet melts at the "warm" setting in my crock pot (and other people on the Web do it this way). I'm looking forward to trying it with grated suet.

[Michael]

Cool, thanks! I was actually thinking of the grinder more for the bones and for making Lex's type of mix some day, since it seems to work well for him, but I'm glad there's another method for the suet. Up till now I had been chopping it finely with my sharp Henkel's kitchen knife, but that sounds like a better method. I have a semi-high powered blender that I fine works even better than food processors, so it should do the job. I'm surprised the suet doesn't heat up and glob together or something.
It's very low. When it gets into the upper 70s indoors my tallow starts melting on its own and I find that suet melts at the "warm" setting in my crock pot (and other people on the Web do it this way). I'm looking forward to trying it with grated suet.

I used to chop mine with my expensive japanese Tojiro kitchen knives but it was such a chore.  With the increase in my fat consumption and the bulk meal preparation method that I now employ I tend to prepare roughly 600g of suet at one time.  That's a lot of chopping!  One minute in the processor - it's done and is beautifully fine.  I hope it works for you!  I would expect your blender would do an equally good job.  I have a VitaPrep 3 but haven't tried using this for chopping suet as I suspect it would blend it into a mush rather than chop it.

Thanks for your comments on the melting point.  I must persist in my efforts to achieve the melting of suet.  Please keep us posted with your own experiences with grating/melting it!

[MrBBQ]

I've never actually thought of chucking the fat in the food processor, mainly because I thought it would get clogged and burn the motor out or something (this kind of thing often happens to me!).

Currently, I'm using a hand-cranked cheapo mincer, which is made from some kind of composite material and suckered to my worktop (it's come unstuck a few times and gone flying). I've noticed that the auger squeezes the fat so intensely that the sub-structure of it breaks down and then it's extruded into the usual mince profile. Ultimately, I throw this minced product into a large glass jar, which I submerge in a pan of simmering water. Apparently, the squeezed/extruded fat is more fractionated, so it melts very quickly and easily and I simply pour the liquid (not hot, just enough to melt) through a sieve/strainer to remove the undesirables. I'm then left with a product without its non-fat bits that's compactly stored and easily accessible for re-melting or thinly slicing (like a block of cheese) - akin to rendered, but of course, sub-violently-thermodynamic prepared.

I find that auger+extrusion mincing facilitates this melting method - does the food processor method allow the same end product?

---

Also, I've backheeled suet recently in my search for a nicer fat, which is more like cream/butter and gladly, I've discovered a fat cut that's creamier and with more of a yellow tinge. My farm/butcher calls this fat "top brisket fat", which usually comes in cuts almost as long and slender as my arm. Personally, I find this fat to be (consistently!)the creamiest and most delicious fat of all - has everyone tried this fat, with mixed opinions (given that it seems to have a relegated position alongside suet)?

Maybe this is the "back fat" that RawZi was referring to (I think I used to go in the shop and initially ask for "back fat", which is a term I borrowed from Fat of the Land, but they never knew what I meant)...In that case, if you're in the UK, simply ask for "top brisket fat" (I can usually secure up to 1.5kg per week).

Just my two penneth/cents...;-))

[livingthelife]

a fat cut that's creamier and with more of a yellow tinge. My farm/butcher calls this fat "top brisket fat", which usually comes in cuts almost as long and slender as my arm. Personally, I find this fat to be (consistently!)the creamiest and most delicious fat of all - has everyone tried this fat, with mixed opinions (given that it seems to have a relegated position alongside suet)?

Maybe this is the "back fat" that RawZi was referring to

Fatback is a common food in the southern USA (though never  raw and always pork, from my experience). 

[RawZi]

Fatback is a common food in the southern USA (though never  raw and always pork, from my experience). 

    I've seen that in a small general store.  It was in their freezer.  I think it came from a nearby hog farm.  I think people of Southern descent cook it with vegetables. 

    When I elaborated on her (raw's) term "back fat", I meant the (raw) buffalo fat that I bought.  It was frozen because I just bought it about a month ago, but they only get it from the animals in Winter.  Probably a more appropriate term is the "hide fat" (from under the buffalo's hide).   

[Michael]

No clogging at all in the food processor MrBBQ.  In fact, it puts no strain at all on the machine and I expect could be equally easily achieved on a cheap, low power food processor rather than the one I have.  It doesn't leave the same end product as that which you describe.  There is no waste.  Simply a finely grated, dry powder-like substance but with the grain size more reminiscent of grated parmesan cheese.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the mincing/melting of suet.  I will add this to my array of methods to experiment with.  I have plenty in stock so may even do that this evening.  I would be extremely happy if I could start making truly 'raw' pemmican for hiking/camping trips and it's beginning to sound as though it may be a possibility with your suggestions along with those of Phil and others.  Perhaps we should start a separate topic dedicated to this subject?

In response to your other comments, fatty brisket joints are actually the main meat that I buy.  It is 100% grass fed and usually comes with vast quantities of fat which, I agree, is absolutely delicious.  It hadn't actually crossed my mind that this kind of fat would be available separately from buying the meat cuts themselves.  Thanks for the tip.  I will enquire with my supplier.  Have you tried bone marrow?  That is the creamiest/tastiest raw animal fat that I've tried but I find that it's far too difficult and time consuming to extract substantial amounts so just enjoy it as an occasional treat.

[William]

Also, I've backheeled suet recently in my search for a nicer fat, which is more like cream/butter and gladly, I've discovered a fat cut that's creamier and with more of a yellow tinge. My farm/butcher calls this fat "top brisket fat", which usually comes in cuts almost as long and slender as my arm. Personally, I find this fat to be (consistently!)the creamiest and most delicious fat of all - has everyone tried this fat, with mixed opinions (given that it seems to have a relegated position alongside suet)?

Maybe this is the "back fat" that RawZi was referring to (I think I used to go in the shop and initially ask for "back fat", which is a term I borrowed from Fat of the Land, but they never knew what I meant)...In that case, if you're in the UK, simply ask for "top brisket fat" (I can usually secure up to 1.5kg per week).

Just my two penneth/cents...;-))

The brisket is between the front legs; back fat is under the hide on top at the rear, just in front of the tail.

[livingthelife]

back fat is under the hide on top at the rear, just in front of the tail.

Thank you, not the same, then, as "fatback"

 

[MrBBQ]

Nice one - thanks for elucidating! ;-)

[Michael]

OK guys.  I've now had a chance to experiment with suet this evening - isn't my life clearly a thrill-a-minute?!!    

I prepared 4 batches of suet.
  
Batch 1: minced by hand through my meat mincer and then spread thin on a silicon plate and put into the dehydrator set to 145 F
Batch 2: finely chopped in the food processor, likewise spread thinly on a silicon plate and put into the dehydrator set to 145 F
Batch 3: finely chopped in the food processor, likewise spread thickly on a silicon plate and put into the dehydrator set to 145 F
Batch 4: I added some more of the food processor chopped suet into a plastic screw-top beaker and submerged in hot water in a similar manner to how I used to melt my raw butter

Results: Both the minced suet and ground suet which had been thinly spread melted sufficiently for pouring and filtering after 17 minutes.  The thickly spread ground suet was not even close.  There was no difference evident from the processing method employed.  Immediately, I measured the temperature of the resultant oil and it max'd at 128 F.  Too hot!  After much more time, Batch 4 remained completely solid.

So, I then used a fresh Batch 2 with the only difference being a dehydrator setting of 135 F.
This took 45 minutes to melt sufficiently for pouring and filtering.  The temperature measured of the oil was 105 F.  Acceptable as a raw oil.

My conclusions:  Food processor ground suet works fine.  Spreading the suet meal thinly is required to expose maximum surface area to the surrounding warm air currents.  The amount of suet required for a small quantity of resultant oil was more than expected which, in addition to the limited tray surface area available in the dehydrator, could prohibit bulk home production.

Recommendations: I hope to test melting the ground suet another time using some form of bain marie / double boiler.

[livingthelife]

  you can render under 40 C.  You must first grind the fat, as with a food processor.  then heat to 40 C.  At that temp. the liquid will have already started to separate.  The rest can be separated with a pressing or centrifugal spinning.   I can say more if needed.  And that I know of no one actually doing the second part of this operation (the pressing or spinning, to remove the remaining available liquid portion.)  If it was commercially available, I would certainly buy tons of it myself.  Maybe someone will pick it up someday.   Hey, they did it with olive oil, and now with salmon or fish oil. 

It's been done with butterfat for centuries. Properly made ghee is not "boiled off" but gently coaxed at low temperatures from the butter and then refined as van describes. There are different grades of ghee, the most refined is the finest/best. The highly refined liquid is the "butter oil" that Price wrote about.

[raw]

It's been done with butterfat for centuries. Properly made ghee is not "boiled off" but gently coaxed at low temperatures from the butter and then refined as van describes. There are different grades of ghee, the most refined is the finest/best. The highly refined liquid is the "butter oil" that Price wrote about.

my mom always makes the finest ghee at home. we never buy that from the store.

[van]

  I also use a food processor and then place the blended back fat in a bowl, and then in a large pot of 105 f water.  It melts, or at least one half of it does.   My only concern is that I believe there is a significant amount of oxidation that occurs when processing and then heating.  The food processor whips a fair amount of air into the fat, and then the heat accelerates oxidation.   I want to soon buy a meat grinder believing that it will not put as much oxygen into the fat.  Similar to the 'research' having been done on high vs low speed juicers that grind vs spin at high speeds.  May sound a little to precautionary, but then there are some who believe that pufas oxidize even in the body or bloodstream.  I know that saturated fat is far more stable, but I know how much different the fat tastes on the outside of chunk of fat vs. the inside when sitting in the fridge for several days or so.  The outside exposed areas certainly have an unpleasant taste, if not bad. Very similar to the taste of getting your mouth washed out with soap as a kid.  Soap back then was made with animal fat. Animal fat that had oxidized.

[livingthelife]

pufas oxidize even in the body or bloodstream.

I understood that the importance of eating PUFAs raw and whole was so they would oxidize in the body, creating a detoxifying chemical reaction? Otherwise they are worthless-to-dangerous to eat.

Avoiding eating oxidized food is a big concern of mine. I have techniques I use while juicing to minimize oxidation (you can see oxidation easily with juice due to the color change). I also don't chop, press, or stir any food when I can help it. I hadn't thought of this regarding processing animal fat (which I haven't done but was considering). We don't eat ground meat, either, for this reason.

Ghee is primarily saturated fat, and though it's heated and strained, I feel pretty confident about eating it.

I wonder which animal bodyfats are most saturated, thereby safest to process? Perhaps suet is most highly saturated, because it's most solid at room temp. The more "jelly" the fat is the more mono & poly fat it is, if you go by the "room temp" guideline.

[TylerDurden]

Raw PUFAs are fine. Unfortunately, the anti-PUFA brigade love damning all PUFAs by only selectively quoting studies done on highly processed, cooked PUFAs.

[livingthelife]

Ghee is primarily saturated fat

...but the "butter oil" derived from further refinement is not solid at room temp like a saturated fat should be. Hmm.