Different fat

[TylerDurden]

and nobody has proven that pemmican is not paleo.

Pemmican is most certainly not RAWPALAEO, only having been eaten after the advent of fire. This is a rawpalaeo forum, not merely a palaeo one.
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[MrBBQ]

To some extent, I appreciate the pragmatic counter-ideology and outright personal efficacy that you're playfully presenting William, although are you referring to pemmican as a means of surviving or thriving?

Did you notice typical systemic healing manifestations after transitioning to cooked meats/fats?

Also, I'm int'rested in your dismissal of the oxysterol case. I realise that most of these half-baked studies are useless and biased, yet you can't deny that these in-vivo studies on our rodent friends demonstrated a histologically-absolute deleterious effect on tissues at the cellular level.

The cigarette smoke assertion is non-relevant in this context, is it not? After all, we're not looking to treat/manage inflammation (like other pharmacological anti-inflammatories), but simply to eliminate its basis (that is, digging one's own grave with one's teeth). Isn't tobacco a member of the nightshade family anyway, and as such pro-inflammatory (not to mention the radioactive soil it's grown in and nasty compounds it's complexed with). Yet again, I'm requiring more elaboration/elucidation because you've stimulated my interest again...

Once again, we can only look to nature as a guide (even in the context of paleo bushcraft/tooling) - life begets life...

If one's interest is longevity (that is, neither rotting nor rusting), one may consider eating one's flesh without violent thermodynamics / oxidative intent. ;-))

[William]

Did you notice typical systemic healing manifestations after transitioning to cooked meats/fats?

You have missed the point even more than the obtuse TD. I will try to draw a map.

I have eaten raw meat for 10 years, but did not put my heart disease into remission until I began raw zero carb.
This (raw zc) has also completely cured the chronic back pains from an old back injury, which doctors consider incurable.
I did this by eating only pemmican, impossible on raw meat as I have had too many bad reactions to it (the well known "stop" first described by anopsologists) and can't stand the needed amount of fat, which gives me diarrhea when fresh.

We are here because nothing but else worked to cure some terrible disease which is otherwise incurable, not to slavishly follow an assumed description of an unknown diet, which is BTW badly described - note TD's remark

Pemmican is most certainly not RAWPALAEO, only having been eaten after the advent of fire.

when he knows how long we have had fire.

If it works I will use it, and so will any other desperate or sane person who gets a fair description - this my objection to the constant anti-fat remarks which claim that tallow is as harmful as cooked fat. This claim is nonsense, and could persuade some not to try the cure they need.
This is a wicked thing to do.

I've already pointed out that rendered fat is not the same as cooked fat, but to try to make it clear again, properly made tallow contains none of the harmful substances known to exist in cooked fat, such as heated proteins and water.
I am not aware that anyone has detected Maillard molecules in properly made tallow, same for heterocyclic amines, AGEs, re-arranged PUFAs or any of the other products of cooking PROTEINS, the reason for that is that there is no protein in tallow. Cooked or otherwise.

There are no credible studies that show that tallow could be harmful, this agrees with my experience and that of others, so I must conclude that the fat molecules in tallow are functionally identical in the human body to those in pure raw fat.

Those who have had a bad reaction to pemmican probably did not adequately filter out the solid bits, which are poisonous in my experience, or some other mistake in preparation.

Paleolithic teeth show tiny scratches, believed to be caused by eating something containing tiny rock fragments/dust. This is most likely the result of powdering jerky with stones to make pemmican.

We are here for healing, not for ill-informed vilification.

[TylerDurden]

I have eaten raw meat for 10 years, but did not put my heart disease into remission until I began raw zero carb.
This (raw zc) has also completely cured the chronic back pains from an old back injury, which doctors consider incurable.
I did this by eating only pemmican, impossible on raw meat as I have had too many bad reactions to it (the well known "stop" first described by anopsologists) and can't stand the needed amount of fat, which gives me diarrhea when fresh.

You've also frequently  mentioned in the past your inability to obtain grassfed meats and your consumption of (very unhealthy) grainfed meats - no wonder you had bad reactions to it. I also note that a lot of ZCers seem to advocate cooking  if they also consume grainfed meats(grainfed meat is so unappetising when raw). As for individual differences re your inability to digest, you appear to be in a rather small minority, implying that there are other possible reasons for not handling raw, perhaps your individual health issues etc.

We are here because nothing but else worked to cure some terrible disease which is otherwise incurable,

Not  true. We members are here because all other diets, including your cooked, zero carb diet example  failed us  miserably in mild to life-threatening ways, destroying our health. So, even if we are to believe your assertion for your own case, there are multitudes of us here who have the exact opposite experience, especially newbies, who might be wrongly discouraged from trying rawpalaeo as a result of such listening to such notions.

 

not to slavishly follow an assumed description of an unknown diet, which is BTW badly described - note TD's remark  when he knows how long we have had fire.

We have had cooking for only a mere last  10% of the entire Palaeolithic era(250,000 years), the rest of that time, our Palaeo ancestors  were eating raw meat not cooked meat - come to think of it, even after that point, numerous hunter-gatherer tribes were, of necessity, still eating large amounts of raw animal foods(Inuit are a classic example of such a raw/cooked mix). Our diet is therefore essentially more "palaeo" than the pemmican-diet you peddle. Plus, 250,000 years is not enough to adapt, that's only 12,500 generations to adapt to a type of food(ie cooked food) that is radically different from previous kinds of food that it would take far longer to adapt to it than any other kind of (raw) diet - one only has to look at the archaeological record, even just switching from raw fruit/veg to largely raw-meat diets involved several stages, each lasting several hundred thousand years. Cooked food would take much longer to adapt to(if ever) as it's not just a different type of raw food but something entirely different.

If it works I will use it, and so will any other desperate or sane person who gets a fair description - this my objection to the constant anti-fat remarks which claim that tallow is as harmful as cooked fat. This claim is nonsense, and could persuade some not to try the cure they need.
This is a wicked thing to do.

What is truly satanic is for someone  to deliberately deceive newbies into believing that cooked animal fat is OK, especially when so many come to this diet with past  health-issues because of  that particular type of food. We've already shown numerous studies proving that all cooked animal fats contain multiple heat-created toxins, regardless of whether they consist of tallow or any other kind of cooked animal fat.

I've already pointed out that rendered fat is not the same as cooked fat, but to try to make it clear again, properly made tallow contains none of the harmful substances known to exist in cooked fat, such as heated proteins and water.

If you're trying to suggest that raw saturated fat isn't affected by cooking, that's just absurd. As I've shown in previous examples , it is quite possible for cooked high-fat foods to contain large amounts of toxins. As shown in this study, butter, when heated, forms more advanced glycation end products than virtually any other food, and it's very high in saturated fats:-

http://www.newcastleyoga.com.au/links/Food%20AGEs%20text.pdf

I am not aware that anyone has detected Maillard molecules in properly made tallow, same for heterocyclic amines, AGEs, re-arranged PUFAs or any of the other products of cooking PROTEINS, the reason for that is that there is no protein in tallow. Cooked or otherwise.

You're forgetting that even tallow contains heat-created toxins; such as oxidised cholesterol as shown in the following study:-

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00070a016#

Paleolithic teeth show tiny scratches, believed to be caused by eating something containing tiny rock fragments/dust. This is most likely the result of powdering jerky with stones to make pemmican.

Never heard of this before. I take it there is no study backing this. As for dust, Stefansson pointed out how Inuit teeth were substantially worn down by the dust/grit found in their fish(due to winds carrying such grit, I believe). In other words, there are plenty of more suitable explanations for such wear and tear, if any, other than pemmican.

*Moving to hot topics forum as the subject is really about cooked fat as opposed to raw, zero carb*



[/quote]

[Michael]

William, I - for one - am not anti-fat and am genuinely interested in your ideas and perspective.  I hope my questioning is not interpreted as vilification.
I'm glad for you that, in seeking the truth, you found a food which restored your health.  That's wonderful!  Like you, I've been eating raw meat for almost 10 yrs.  I am fortunate in that it works for me quite well, however.

....did not put my heart disease into remission until I began raw zero carb.
.... I did this by eating only pemmican, impossible on raw meat as I have had too many bad reactions to it (the well known "stop" first described by anopsologists) and can't stand the needed amount of fat, which gives me diarrhea when fresh.

Did you mean zero carb William as, of course, pemmican is certainly not raw (as we would define it on this forum)?

.. my objection to the constant anti-fat remarks which claim that tallow is as harmful as cooked fat.

But tallow IS cooked fat in that it is heated above 104 F William, surely?!  Filtering out the proteins does not change this fact.  When you talk of 'properly made tallow', are you saying that it's not heated above this temperature?

I am not aware that anyone has detected Maillard molecules in properly made tallow, same for heterocyclic amines, AGEs, re-arranged PUFAs or any of the other products of cooking PROTEINS, the reason for that is that there is no protein in tallow. Cooked or otherwise.

Now, this part I understand what you're saying and am interested in your point.  If the only concerns we have with cooked/rendered fat (tallow) are protein-related (such as AGEs) then I can see, of course, the benefits of filtration leaving pure fat.
 
Your argument is based on the fact that damaged proteins are removed from the final product which, most definitely, is going to have it's benefits and - as long as the proteins are COMPLETELY removed - then, I assume, AGEs are no longer an issue.  You'll have to excuse my ignorance but with my consumption of raw paleo I haven't bothered reading up on the other products of cooking - Maillard, heterocyclic amines,re-arranged PUFAs etc.  Like AGEs are due to sticky glucose molecules attaching to proteins, are these other toxic products ONLY related to proteins which are subsequently removed?

I must conclude that the fat molecules in tallow are functionally identical in the human body to those in pure raw fat.

In my view, lack of studies to prove it is not the same as the fat molecules being identical for cooked/raw fats.  Even if all of those toxic products of cooking that you mentioned and that Tyler frequently refers to ARE all protein related - is there not the possibility that we have simply not discovered issues with the fat molecules?  In a similar manner, I'm sure there was a time when AGEs etc were not yet discovered and we, therefore, had no studies proving cooked proteins were toxic.

[MrBBQ]

I wasn't looking for a point, necessarily - merely to stimulate further elaboration/elucidation, which you kindly fulfilled, thanks. ;-))

I'd agree that it's what we've not observed that's the oft-critical factor, which is ultimately why personal efficacy and intuition should prevail, along with maybe some time-honoured traditions.

I put all this non-raw pemmican-orientation down to umami-love, haha. ;-))

What would your typical zoologist feed his captives, I wonder?! It would be interesting to observe the impact of pemmican trials on other carnivorous mammals with a relatively shorter lifespan than humans. Maybe somebody already can cite such studies (or oversights on the part of animal keepers)...

I suppose that all ideologies/dogmas crumble with time, so like I said previously, the truth will become self-evident for each individual as nature deals with them in its truest symbiosis, hehe...Notwithstanding, everyone subscribes to their own cosmology!

Efficacy for all, however it chooses to be...;-))

For my personal amusement, on this matter of adequately-filtered tallow, I see some hopefuls appropriating bleached-white (bleach being the operative chemical) kitchen towels/napkins as their "fine mesh", as opposed to something like unbleached organic fairly-traded cotton...It subtly elucidates the kind of quality assurance that some "artisans" bring to their burgeoning connoisseurship in the matter of fine cuisine. Talk about the paleorati...

So what kind of toxic molecules do we think might be complexed with the rendered fats that make it through the fine mesh, or are we of the opinion that cooking-related toxins aren't fat-soluble in this tallow substrate?

My interest is peeked even more now...

[Michael]

Being a fully fledged member of the Paleorati, I would most definitely be using unbleached organic fairly-traded cotton MrBBQ!!!   

Very funny post, thanks.  You express yourself most eloquently.

[PaleoPhil]

...We are here for healing, not for ill-informed vilification.

Heh, heh.  I like having you here, William, because you rarely fail to bring a smile to me face. I was just making a friendly suggestion that you are free to discard as you wish.

Am I imagining things, or are your posts becoming even more witty and incisive? Are you experiencing an increase in mental clarity and power? I'm not just flattering--my guess is you are.

[TylerDurden]

What would your typical zoologist feed his captives, I wonder?! It would be interesting to observe the impact of pemmican trials on other carnivorous mammals with a relatively shorter lifespan than humans. Maybe somebody already can cite such studies (or oversights on the part of animal keepers)...p

My info comes from studies and vague anecdotal reports from zoo employeees/directors. It seems that animals very easily develop cancer from eating cooked foods(yes, even tallow, in 1 or 2 cases as shown previously).  I'll put in the various studies below in a short while:-

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T88-45WYNRP-N&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1109090918&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=d8c56cd494fbdb0872e93c3bf839a6a7

http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/20/12/2690


There are multitudes of such animal studies done re heat-created toxins such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons/AGEs etc. None that I know of involving pure carnivores, simply because rats and mice make better lab animals than others.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/130/5/1247

As for zoologists and zoo animals, I'm afraid that perusal of sites for zoo animal nutrition shows that they far prefer to feed their wild animals on dismal highly processed cakes/pellets of refined foods, which are even worse than pemmican, if that's possible(pemmican already being a highly refined food in and of itself)- a minority do feed their wild animals on raw whole carcasses. They claim that this feeding of processed foods is due to the animals not necessarily selecting a balanced diet if presented with a wide variety of their natural foods(I suspect that a healthy diet being too expensive is the real reason), and they claim that meats/fruits and seeds do not contain enough calcium in the diet, which, as we've seen in our case, is a load of rubbish(at least as regards raw meat/fruit, 9non-sprouted)seeds having antinutrients).

There have also been numerous cases of zoo animals dying after receiving processed foods from passersby and reports re zoo animals dying from eating processed foods:-

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF8/856.html

So what kind of toxic molecules do we think might be complexed with the rendered fats that make it through the fine mesh, or are we of the opinion that cooking-related toxins aren't fat-soluble in this tallow substrate?

My interest is peeked even more now...

I think it's clear that oxidised cholesterol is 1 type of such a toxin. I would be interested in studies on rendered(as opposed to generally heated) fats, if only to counter the usual nonsense from pemmican-eaters, but they are likely to be few and far between as more and more people, worldwide, avoid cooked animal fats of all kinds due to the endless scientific studies damning them. I think it's safe to say, though, that it's absurd to suggest that raw animal fat is wholly unaffected by cooking, toxin-wise, given that cooking is such a harsh process(indeed any food will eventually become blackened and toxic after constant high levels of heat through cooking, no food is immune).

[Michael]

Heh, heh.  I like having you here, William, because you rarely fail to bring a smile to me face. I was just making a friendly suggestion that you are free to discard as you wish.

Am I imagining things, or are your posts becoming even more witty and incisive? Are you experiencing an increase in mental clarity and power? I'm not just flattering--my guess is you are.

That's funny as I was thinking the same thing.  Your posts do seem to have changed William.  I've always enjoyed your posts and found them most interesting and informative.  But, there seems to be a new dimension to them now.  Is this something you're aware of?  What is the source or motivation of this?