Shoes roundup

[Sully]

Here is what I am currently wearing. Never had anything better.





I guess you can call em shandles shoes mixed with sandals. I tried sandals for adventuring the concrete surfaces of the city and had no success. Not comfortable and not enough cushion. I wouldn't trade these shoes that I ripped apart for anything. Perfect for the summer.
I don't have flat feet but I don't have that big of an arch. If your the same this brand may be good to customize for yourself also.

[Josh]

They've still got the big heel that distorts posture. If they're a good compromise for you, I'm all in favour, but I know once I tried minimal shoes there was no going back.

Re hardness of concrete, yeh I think it's a bit harder than compacted earth but I don't believe it's that important. Once I got into minimals, I don't feel it's a problem for my joints or whatever. Maybe it is storing up some wear and tear, but the way I see it it's balancing the slight difference of concrete and the unknown that it might be a little worse than solid mud against normal shoes which definitely cause problems with posture and constrict my feet.

A lot of 'knee problems' etc are caused by the muscles being overstrained or doing unaccustomed work and referred pain. If anyone wants to pm me I might be able to put them on to something that can help. Free, to help the community.

[Michael]

Good to see this thread resurrected.

Interesting adaptations to those trainers Sully!    Nice and airy, I'm sure, but I must agree with Josh on the minimalist footwear.  Once you've tried some of the available footwear you probably wouldn't go back.  My current range includes: Feelmax Niesa, Feelmax Kuuva, Vibram Fivefinger KSO, Viva Barefoot Lesotho, and a selection of water shoes and tai chi footwear.  Moving away from the consumerism aspect, I'm also in the process of making something myself!  I've long had painful issues with Plantar Fasciitis but moving to minimalist footwear has helped immensely.

I've been using some Vibram Fivefingers for running and have been truly amazed at the results.  No injuries whatsoever.  Easy trouble-free runs and a completely altered running style.  I would certainly recommend them along with the now famous book, Born To Run, and some of the complimentary exercises/methods such as POSE method, Egoscue method etc.

PaleoPhil, are you still after minimalist boots?  I have a pair of FeelMax Kuuva's which were brilliant in the icy and snow we had this past winter as well as being extremely minimalist.  I was unable to go out in my Vibrams, Viva Barefoots or FeelMax Niesa's as they were either too slippery or dangerously cold.  The Kuuva's solved these problems.  I've also read about the Munson last and a company called the Russell Mocassin Company who will make something suitable.  If you haven't heard of them, you may be interested in this link: http://www.russellmoccasin.com/product_reviews/minimalist_footwear.html

[wodgina]

I bought fake Vibram Five Fingers. $65 and I'm very happy with them. The look just like real ones and even come with the proper box and leaflets.

$200 in OZ for Five Fingers I would of bought real ones but they were always out of stock.

[PaleoPhil]

Michael, I use a pair of kayaking boots for winter. They're slippery, but it sort of helps to keep me on my toes and agile and I've only actually fallen a couple of times over two winters. I looked into the Kuuva's but it sounds like they don't offer much more traction:

"The sole of the Kuuva is completely flat with almost no texture on the bottom. The other day, I was walking up a fairly steep, wet, muddy-grassy hill, and my feet slipped out from under me several times. I honestly wondered if I would be able to make it up the hill. I did manage after three falls (not all the way to the ground, but to my hands). However, if those are the conditions you think you'll be in regularly, you could probably get a pair of "boot (or shoe) chains" and be fine." http://www.amazon.com/Feelmax-Kuuva-Boots-Minimalist-Simulates/dp/B002SAZTFQ

I may try something like ICEtrekkers Shoe Chains or Yaktrax. On the other hand, Inuits and other indigenous peoples somehow managed in icy conditions with mukluks and other moccasin-style boots.

At first glance the Russell Mocassins don't look minimalist enough for me.

[cliff]

Leather sandals are considered paleo?

[djr_81]

On the other hand, Inuits and other indigenous peoples somehow managed in icy conditions with mukluks and other moccasin-style boots.

I don't know what the soles of the other shoes are made from (didn't follow the link) but hides have more texture than rubber or other man-made sole materials. I'm not saying you won't fall on a sharp incline but it's less likely in hide shoes IMO.

[Michael]

PaleoPhil, surprisingly those Kuuva's did actually have fairly decent traction in the ice and snow.  I suppose it depends on the demands you have and your environment may be far harsher than a little English winter.  If this is the case then you may be forced to go for something like the Icetrekkers cleats you mentioned.

I do think the Russell Mocassin Company may have the answer though.  If you have a good look around their website you should see a good selection of minimalist footwear for stalking in addition to which they give the impression they're willing to build something unique for individual customers.  I certainly intend contacting them when I have some spare cash.

Wodgina, thanks for the report on the fake fivefingers.  I'd heard the asian markets were flooded with these and wondered about the quality.  Certainly, the genuine VFF are rather expensive - particularly some of the latest models!  I'm intending buying some more injinji toe socks and applying a paint-on, non-slip industrial (but VOC free!) liquid rubber solution.  I have high hopes that this will provide the ultimate barefoot feel but with the security of traction and puncture resistance.

Leather sandals are certainly another good option, as mentioned, and there are plenty of websites detailing how to make DIY huaarche sandals as used by the Tarahumara.  I'm not so sure about the aesthetic potential of these myself! 

[miles]

Puncture resistance sure, but traction? What?

[Michael]

Puncture resistance sure, but traction? What?

Do you mean the liquid rubber I mentioned?

The particular brand of liquid rubber I'm intending to soon purchase offers a non-slip liquid rubber coating intended for industrial applications where this would be of critical importance.  I'm not yet sure to what degree this would provide traction but I'm keen to find out!

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks, Michael, but I checked the moccasin site further and still found only shoes/boots that look stiff and thick-soled and I even checked out their custom options page. Not much like the minimalist Feelmax, Vivo Barefoot, Vibrams and traditional moccasins I'm more interested in--though it's hard to tell how thick and flexible the soles on the custom options page are. Do you have a link to a page that shows what you're referring to?

[Michael]

Sorry Phil.  I didn't have time to post any links earlier.

I agree that, sole thickness wise, they don't currently compare with the minimalist shoe market leaders.  But, I think they have potential and the company seem willing to listen to the barefoot community and re-design their products accordingly.

The boots that caught my eye were the 'Thula Thula's which can be seen here: http://www.russellmoccasin.com/boots_safari/thula_thula.html

Also, they talk a little more about their entry into the minimalist market here (which you may have seen):
http://www.russellmoccasin.com/new_products/minimalist_footwear.html

I think they may be worth contacting to discuss your requirements and see what they can come up with.  Certainly, their footwear appears incredibly well made using traditional techniques, expert craftsmanship and quality materials.  The Munson last also seems to be favourable to the ideals of minimalist footwear with it's spacious toebox etc.

[miles]

Do you mean the liquid rubber I mentioned?

The particular brand of liquid rubber I'm intending to soon purchase offers a non-slip liquid rubber coating intended for industrial applications where this would be of critical importance.  I'm not yet sure to what degree this would provide traction but I'm keen to find out!

Sorry, I though you were suggesting that you would have more traction than bare soles. Yes, that sounds like a good idea, and is something I considered in the past but never got around to.

[Michael]

Sorry, I though you were suggesting that you would have more traction than bare soles. Yes, that sounds like a good idea, and is something I considered in the past but never got around to.

My own carelessness miles.  Having re-read my post I can see how you could've interpreted that as my intended supposition.

Hopefully, I'll get around to the prototype 'running socks' eventually and will report back with results.

[miles]

Hey Michael, I really want some warm-boots, that are close-fitting on the main foot but don't squash the toes, and have a soft fabric bottom, and then use something to toughen the bottom for durability, like that rubber spray. Do you have any ideas of how I could attain/make such boots?

[Josh]

Hey Miles. I got a Hurarache sandal kit, and they supply vibram to make the soles with. This is what they make hiking boots etc out of.

http://www.invisibleshoe.com/
http://www.barefootted.com/index.php?q=/

You could use that for your base.

[wodgina]

I went for a run in my Five Fingers, heaps of rock jumping, scaling boulders, scrambling even crossed (just) a fast moving river in them.

I found I couldn't slide down rocks/sleep slopes like you can in shoes (your toes crumple)

I liked them, my feet feel massaged by all the rocks I stepped on.

You can check my run out here

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/42641517

[raw-al]

Barefoot is best for me. I try to maintain this all year but outside in winter is a problem. Best because when you walk barefoot you are constantly pushing on your accupressure or Marma points in your feet and this activating the associated meridians. Also you are doing it in a random way so you are constantly changing the activations rather than simply hitting the same ones over and over. Also the weight of shoes is an unnatural stress on your knees etc as they have to be lifted constantly which is a source of fatigue. Your sense of balance is much keener barefoot.

Walking on dirt is the best as you are grounding yourself constantly. In Ayurveda they suggest not wearing rubber or leather under your feet as it prevents this grounding. I think what they are talking about is prana that exits through your feet.

Wearing shoes generally is a source of skeletal problems (misalignment causing long term problems) because no matter what you wear it somehow will shift your posture. And since you do it repeatedly you will eventually suffer some sort of repetitive strain injury.

I'll explain. My feet used to point outward (pronated). Not really badly mind you but a chiropracter suggested getting orthotics to correct it. So I got them. Then I noticed that my feet automatically started to point forward in the direction that seemed proper. They have stayed that way since.

From studying and having some skeletal adjusting done by a chiro and a Rolfer I have learned that posture is incredibly important. Here is how it should be;

Take a string or thread and attach a weight of some sort from it. The string should be long enough to go from the top of a doorway to just shy of the floor. Then somehow attach the string to the top of the doorway. Then stand to one side of the doorway so you are close to but not touching the string, with your ear close to the string as possible. Do not lean sideways, what I am saying is your ear should by abeam the string. Stand in your normal way, no fakin it!

Then have someone you love or the closest facsimile, look at the string and move themselves so the string appears to pass by the centre of your ear. The string should pass by the centre of your shoulder, then the centre of your hips and the centre of your knee's rotation and the big bump on your ankle. This way your weight is centred and you require no extra muscle activity to keep you erect. This muscle activity is very tiring. The tiring effect of this is actually a source of poor attitude etc because if you are tired all the time you will tend to be cranky.

If your shoes wear predominantly on one side or more forward or aft, then you are not balanced. Women who wear high heels and men who wear cowboy boots are asking for big trouble.

If you have wide feet get shoes marked 5 w or whatever is appropo. My small toes are rolled in because I have wide feet and I used to run with narrow sneakers as a teenager and tended to have narrow shoes, not knowing the difference. I remember the first time I bought wide shoes. I couldn't believe how comfortable they were. Now if I wear narrow shoes my feet snap every time my foot comes down just like the thing we used to do as kids where you squeeze someones fist while shaking their hand and snap their knuckles up and down. It hurts.

I have wide "Keen" sandals for driving my bicycle. For work I have orthotic German Finn Comfort shoes that cost a small fortune. They have custom orthotic inserts glued in. (work paid for 80% of the cost) They are ultra wide and unfortunately too hot and heavy to wear in summer.

[raw-al]

You can check my run out here
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/42641517

I know this is off-topic, but then this is an off topic forum. :0

Hey Wodgina,
How do you post that run? I have a Garmin Colorado 300. I've tried it on other sites but can't remember what I did.

[Michael]

Hey Michael, I really want some warm-boots, that are close-fitting on the main foot but don't squash the toes, and have a soft fabric bottom, and then use something to toughen the bottom for durability, like that rubber spray. Do you have any ideas of how I could attain/make such boots?

Hi miles,

Firstly, as I suggested to PaleoPhil, it may be worth talking to the Russell Moccasin Company.  I don't know if you checked out any of the links I posted?  The Munson last, particularly, sounds like an ideal starting place for a close-fit on the main foot but a wide toe box.  Perhaps they could adapt something like their 'Thula Thula' boot or design something completely different to your specifications?  I suppose this depends on how much you'd be willing to spend on something like that.

Again, as I mentioned to PaleoPhil, the Feelmax Kuuva's are worth trying.  My pair are warm enough in the snow with good grip and durability despite the 1mm sole.  The material they use for their incredibly thin soles has amazing ability to withstand abrasion.  If I remember correctly, it's designed/produced by Continental and I did manage to read about this industrial use material on the Continental global website although it was difficult to find.  You could always apply the liquid rubber to the Kuuva's too but I'm not sure it'd be necessary.

Other than that, I guess it's a case of searching for exactly the right boot and making your own DIY adjustments or taking them to a shoe repair shop with a request for specialist adaptations?  Or, how about buying some toe socks of the desired boot length and dipping/painting the entire sock in liquid rubber?  Perhaps some form of indoor boot (tai chi? martial art? ninja tabi slipper/boot? comfort slipper?) could be used with a liquid rubber painted bottom too?  I'd expect a long search on Google would throw up some potential boots ripe for adaptation!

I'll let you know if I think of anything else or find something suitable.

[wodgina]

I know this is off-topic, but then this is an off topic forum. :0

Hey Wodgina,
How do you post that run? I have a Garmin Colorado 300. I've tried it on other sites but can't remember what I did.

The link?

I login into Garmin Connect, download using my 'ant' open up the workout page and just copy and paste from the address bar.

Garmins are good fun, especially with google earth.

[miles]

Hey Michael, do you have any info on the liquid rubber?

[Sitting Coyote]

Really interesting thread, thanks all for your contributions.

I've had a pair of Vibram FiveFingers for a few months, and have put a couple hundred miles on them.  While I liked them at first, I don't think I'd recommend them anymore.  The toe pockets make my toes sweat more than normal, which seems to cause more blisters than I get when running/hiking in other minimalist footwear.  Also, while they fit overall, individual toe pockets are too long, causing them occasionally to buckle when I'm moving over irregular terrain.  Finally, when I'm off trail all sorts of plants and sticks get caught between the toes, forcing me to stop constantly to pick them out.  This never happens when I walk barefoot, so I can only attribute it to something about the toe pockets' spacing and rigidity.  I will not buy another pair, and cannot recommend them. 

I looked over the Russel Mocs page.  I know a few people who have the stalking-type boots, and reviews are mixed.  Traction is poor, the soles are anything but thin, and while feel is better than with a lug sole, friends who've shelled out the $$ for them can't be remotely as quiet as me in a pair of $40 water shoes.  I haven't worn their minimalist models, but at $250+ per pair I guarantee I never will.  You can buy multiple pairs of good minimalist footwear for the price of a single pair of custom "minimalist" Russel mocs.

On a positive note, I do own two pairs of Teva Protons, which have held up to running for a couple years although the pair I bought first is nearing the end of its useful life.  They do poorly as running shoes when you try to wear socks, but work reasonably well when you don't.  They are neoprene, though, so are always hot, except in the winter when they're just right.  Unfortunately I don't think they make Protons anymore, and have replaced the line with something with a higher top.  Maybe that makes them better, although if they're all neoprene it will certainly make them hotter, which is no good for spring/summer/fall use.

I just ordered a couple pairs of Soft Star RunAmoks.  I bought the ventilated version, one pair with the thicker (5mm) treaded sole for non-urban environs and another pair with the thinner (2mm) sole for urban environs.  After reading a few reviews on-line, I have high hopes for them.  They offer a leather version that looks awfully attractive as a hunting shoe.  I'll let folks know how I like them.

[miles]

You think water-shoes would be good for all-weather/terrain(when it's cold enough to want to wear shoes), if you could only have 1 pair of shoes with you?

[Sitting Coyote]

If I could only have one pair of shoes with me, yes I think I would go with a pair of water shoes.  Teva is high end at around $40-60, but there are other brands and I've read of people putting 200+ miles on cheap pairs of $10 water shoes and enjoying their fit and utility tremendously.  Don't think for a second that you need to spend substantial amounts of money for a good minimalist shoe.  You get what you pay for sometimes, and sometimes you get a lot more than you pay for (or conversely, sometimes you pay a lot and don't get much in return except a brand name).

That said, I haven't tried all models, only the ones I mentioned.  As I try other companies' offerings this opinion might change.