Vegetarians are really Starchitarians!

[goodsamaritan]

When you think about it, and I did my vegetarian days some time ago, vegetarianism (shunning of meat) is really more like STARCHITARIANism.

People load up with cooked starches, starches humans are not designed for: rice, corn, wheat, etc. etc.

Listen to Dr. Moo Twahz and the host Patrick Timpone make fun of that fact.

http://www.oneradionetwork.com/health_-_podcasts/diet_and_nutrition/dr._moo-twahz_-_ancient_solutions_for_the_modern_world_-_october_8th_200910081323/

So today's vegetarians are actually starchitarians.

[PaleoPhil]

I'm a meatatarian.

[DeadRamones]

one of my friends is a vegetarian. She pretty much lives off these cheap microwavable bean burritos. It's funny cause she has a bunch of reptiles. So when you open her freezer it's half frozen mice & half been burritos.

[TylerDurden]

I don't see it that way. When I went vegan and then raw vegan, fruit and veg were the mainstays of the diet. Cooked starches and highly processed foods were only for a fringe group who liked artificial meat-substitutes and the like.

[PaleoPhil]

I don't know what the proportions are, but I suspect that the vegetarians who do best focus more on the foods Tyler ate--low-sugar fruits and green veggies--whereas the ones who do worst probably eat more grains, soy milk, frozen veggie dinners and burritos, etc. Since the data overall seem pretty good from what Tyler gave us, I suspect that more vegitarians go heavy on the green veggies than the starches.

[Raw Kyle]

I don't see it that way. When I went vegan and then raw vegan, fruit and veg were the mainstays of the diet. Cooked starches and highly processed foods were only for a fringe group who liked artificial meat-substitutes and the like.

There's way more processed food vegetarians than healthy, prepare your own food vegetarians. Just like with SAD, way more processed food eaters than home cookers. Every vegetarian I've ever known except for myself went in heavily for soy stuff, like soy milk and fake meats. The only healthy vegetarian meals I remember seeing people make were made by non-vegetarians that just wanted to try it. For example my Aunt took a vegetarian cooking class but has never been vegetarian.

Of course when it comes to raw vegetarians, that's another story, those people are generally concerned with health and eat mostly fruits, veggies and nuts/seeds.

[PaleoPhil]

Come to think of it I did have a nutritionist (who I suspect was vegetarian), who recommended all kinds of soy crap. Yuck--it some of the nastiest stuff I've ever eaten. I suspect Tyler was referring more to the raw vegans.

Nearly any change from the SAD is an improvement, so I wouldn't be surprised if a significant number of vegetarians/vegans do better than the SAD eaters, especially if they take supplements or compromise and eat fish or eggs or cheat at times. Burlington, VT is the healthiest city in the US and we have lots of vegheads here. I don't mind them too much because I think about how they keep the price of my meats down and around here they tend to buy less of the processed stuff and be environmentally aware, so they're probably doing a bit less damage to the planet than the SAD eaters. Not that I'd recommend vegetarianism or raw vegan to anyone. It was definitely not for me.

GS's basic point seems pretty on target--a lot of vegetarians probably are starchitarians, because grains, legumes and tubers get lumped in with fruits and veggies. It's the same problem with the way dairy gets lumped in with meats.

[goodsamaritan]

Here is the vegetarian food pyramid that shows starches as their primary food.

http://www.oldwayspt.org/vegetarian_pyramid.html

Breads, Pasta & Grains
Oats, Wheat, Rice, Buckwheat, Flax, Bulgur, Quinoa, Amaranth, Seitan, Millet, Barley, Whole Grain Bread, Rye, Pita, Tortilla, Rice Cakes, Couscous, Noodles, Kasha, Pasta, Corn

[PaleoPhil]

Here is the vegetarian food pyramid that shows starches as their primary food.

http://www.oldwayspt.org/vegetarian_pyramid.html

Breads, Pasta & Grains
Oats, Wheat, Rice, Buckwheat, Flax, Bulgur, Quinoa, Amaranth, Seitan, Millet, Barley, Whole Grain Bread, Rye, Pita, Tortilla, Rice Cakes, Couscous, Noodles, Kasha, Pasta, Corn

It's interesting that that one allows dairy and eggs, so it's using the don't-directly-kill animals criterion rather than the plants-are-healthier criterion.

[TylerDurden]

There's way more processed food vegetarians than healthy, prepare your own food vegetarians. Just like with SAD, way more processed food eaters than home cookers. Every vegetarian I've ever known except for myself went in heavily for soy stuff, like soy milk and fake meats. The only healthy vegetarian meals I remember seeing people make were made by non-vegetarians that just wanted to try it. For example my Aunt took a vegetarian cooking class but has never been vegetarian.

Of course when it comes to raw vegetarians, that's another story, those people are generally concerned with health and eat mostly fruits, veggies and nuts/seeds.

Well, when I first started looking into the whole vegetarian diet movement, I was really looking for diets free of all animal products as cooked animal food was causing me so much ill-health. So, I was really more interested in, first, cooked vegan, and then, eventually, raw vegan. And the books I bought on the subject were far more concerned with fruit- and veg-consumption than anything else.

[H.fructus]

"When you think about it, and I did my vegetarian days some time ago, vegetarianism (shunning of meat) is really more like STARCHITARIANism."

Some 'vegetarians' also customarily consume dairy, candy, grains, seeds, nuts, etc... None of these are vegetables but fruit would be the exception. I think most vegetarians allow themselves that option..

"People load up with cooked starches"
And cow milk and wine...

"starches humans are not designed for: rice, corn, wheat, etc. etc."
While ancestors resorted to meat before rice, both are acidifying and mucous-forming, with long transit and hard stools in the case of lean meat. Both stretch the lumen. Seeds aren't digested much easier either so it seems humans are not granivores.

[alphagruis]

"starches humans are not designed for: rice, corn, wheat, etc. etc."
While ancestors resorted to meat before rice, both are acidifying and mucous-forming, with long transit and hard stools in the case of lean meat. Both stretch the lumen. Seeds aren't digested much easier either so it seems humans are not granivores.

For rice i don't know but for raw meat you're quite mistaken. At least it's completely at odds with my 11 years experience as well as other RPD i know of.

As to the granivorism, substantial amounts of grains can't be digested properly by humans, neither raw nor cooked. Same for herbivores like buffalos, cows or goats.

Only various birds or rodents have developed the appropriate adaptations to cope with the powerful lectins grasses or legumes have developed to protect their seeds not actually from being eated but from their content to be digested    

[H.fructus]

"starches humans are not designed for: rice, corn, wheat, etc. etc."
While ancestors resorted to meat before rice, both are acidifying and mucous-forming, with long transit and hard stools in the case of lean meat. Both stretch the lumen. Seeds aren't digested much easier either so it seems humans are not granivores.

For rice i don't know but for raw meat you're quite mistaken. At least it's completely at odds with my 11 years experience as well as other RPD i know of."

So you agree rice is acidifying and has mucopolysacharides but you're saying meat is not acidifying and is not a source of mucoproteins in connective tissues, blood, etc? Or are you claiming that lean meat does not increase transit time in contrast to rice?

"substantial amounts of grains can't be digested properly by humans"
Grains, seeds and nuts in any amounts are digested similarly to meat in regard to leaving acidic ash from the higher ratios of acidic elements and requiring higher HCL to process the high protein concentration.

[H.fructus]

I am and will continue to closely monitor my new son's eye colour.  They were a fantastic clear blue when he was born.  He's now almost 4 months old and I have sadly noticed a light brown is forming around the pupil.

Nothing to be sad about, it is natural. Melanin is forming to protect eyes and skin and he is genetically programmed to manifest brown color by 12 months of age.


"He is solely breast fed"
The best diet for humans.

 

[alphagruis]

"starches humans are not designed for: rice, corn, wheat, etc. etc."
While ancestors resorted to meat before rice, both are acidifying and mucous-forming, with long transit and hard stools in the case of lean meat. Both stretch the lumen. Seeds aren't digested much easier either so it seems humans are not granivores.

For rice i don't know but for raw meat you're quite mistaken. At least it's completely at odds with my 11 years experience as well as other RPD i know of."

So you agree rice is acidifying and has mucopolysacharides but you're saying meat is not acidifying and is not a source of mucoproteins in connective tissues, blood, etc? Or are you claiming that lean meat does not increase transit time in contrast to rice?

"substantial amounts of grains can't be digested properly by humans"
Grains, seeds and nuts in any amounts are digested similarly to meat in regard to leaving acidic ash from the higher ratios of acidic elements and requiring higher HCL to process the high protein concentration.

Yes, lean raw meat doesn't increase the transit time in my case (omnivore). For rice as i told you i don't know i don't eat rice.

As to the acididification issue my urine is at 7-7.5 even if i eat only meat or food of animal origin for a few days. Apparently when the food is raw we don't have to worry about acidic overload as is usual with cooked neolithic foods.

[DeadRamones]

Isn't your stomach equipped to handle acid? What's so bad about meat making your body more acidic & mucous at the same time? Wouldn't that just balance each other out?

[H.fructus]

Isn't your stomach equipped to handle acid? What's so bad about meat making your body more acidic & mucous at the same time? Wouldn't that just balance each other out?

All food goes through acidic stomach to kill germs initially. Afterward a fermenting intestine, duodenum & colon allow for more nutrient absorption and bacterial flora to thrive. Acidic elements in meat/grains/dairy such as Fe, Cu, P, S, Zn, etc leave acidic residues in contrast to the more alkaline residues.

It isn't just seeds, grains, nuts, meat and dairy that are acidifying. Foods without fiber have longer transit time. Fatty meat in contrast to lean meat, promotes transit though.

I did find some mention that less HCl is produced with raw meat as opposed to cooked meat.

The British Journal of Nutrition. Sep 2008. Vol. 100, Iss. 3; pg. 615.
Acid-base homeostasis is critical to health; examples of the negative health effects of increases in acid loading or acidosis include growth retardation of babies, decline in sports performance and increased atrophy and loss of muscle mass . There is increasing evidence to suggest that even small disturbances in acid-base homeostasis have deleterious effects on bone remodelling in the animal/cellular model, and may be a risk factor for osteoporosis especially given that a high dietary acid load may have a negative effect on bone health by increasing Ca excretion and bone resorption. In addition, dietary acid loading can have detrimental health outcomes through an increased urinary N loss and nephrolithiasis. Currently, there is a general consensus that diet can undoubtedly affect acid-base balance and that an individual's net acid load can be specifically modified by dietary intervention.

[RawZi]

    Have you tried raw meat?  You need HCl to digest vegetables, did you know?  I didn't have enough HCl for that.  Fiber binds my intestines somehow.  For intestines to work magnesium can help, but what works better is raw fat.

    About twenty-five years ago, still veg, it looked like I was getting osteoporosis.  Young I know, but I danced, etc.  About four years ago I started eating (raw) meat.  As a result my jaw got broader, my back got broader, I got taller, may waist and tummy got slimmer and my colon started working for the first time in nine years.

All food goes through acidic stomach to kill germs initially. Afterward a fermenting intestine, duodenum & colon allow for more nutrient absorption and bacterial flora to thrive. Acidic elements in meat/grains/dairy such as Fe, Cu, P, S, Zn, etc leave acidic residues in contrast to the more alkaline residues.

It isn't just seeds, grains, nuts, meat and dairy that are acidifying. Foods without fiber have longer transit time. Fatty meat in contrast to lean meat, promotes transit though.

I did find some mention that less HCl is produced with raw meat as opposed to cooked meat.

The British Journal of Nutrition. Sep 2008. Vol. 100, Iss. 3; pg. 615.
Acid-base homeostasis is critical to health; examples of the negative health effects of increases in acid loading or acidosis include growth retardation of babies, decline in sports performance and increased atrophy and loss of muscle mass . There is increasing evidence to suggest that even small disturbances in acid-base homeostasis have deleterious effects on bone remodelling in the animal/cellular model, and may be a risk factor for osteoporosis especially given that a high dietary acid load may have a negative effect on bone health by increasing Ca excretion and bone resorption. In addition, dietary acid loading can have detrimental health outcomes through an increased urinary N loss and nephrolithiasis. Currently, there is a general consensus that diet can undoubtedly affect acid-base balance and that an individual's net acid load can be specifically modified by dietary intervention.

[goodsamaritan]

"starches humans are not designed for: rice, corn, wheat, etc. etc."
While ancestors resorted to meat before rice, both are acidifying and mucous-forming, with long transit and hard stools in the case of lean meat. Both stretch the lumen. Seeds aren't digested much easier either so it seems humans are not granivores.

For rice i don't know but for raw meat you're quite mistaken. At least it's completely at odds with my 11 years experience as well as other RPD i know of."

So you agree rice is acidifying and has mucopolysacharides but you're saying meat is not acidifying and is not a source of mucoproteins in connective tissues, blood, etc? Or are you claiming that lean meat does not increase transit time in contrast to rice?

"substantial amounts of grains can't be digested properly by humans"
Grains, seeds and nuts in any amounts are digested similarly to meat in regard to leaving acidic ash from the higher ratios of acidic elements and requiring higher HCL to process the high protein concentration.

In my experience, raw meat is NOT mucus forming.
raw paleo diet is a MUCUS FREE DIET.
Moreless of Curezone, the acid / alkaline balance expert says that raw organic / wild meats are alkalizing.
Rice in combination with cooked meat is very hard to digest.  It is the foolish Filipino method of feeling full when he is actually experiencing difficulty in digestion.

I've put my children on paleo diet, cooked and raw meat and have successfully kicked out my 8 year old boy's rice addiction.  I'm still working on the 2 younger kids.

[ys]

The British Journal of Nutrition. Sep 2008. Vol. 100, Iss. 3; pg. 615.

Ha, you know in my opinion none of these Journals really know what they are talking about.  Their conclusions are pure speculations based on flawed logic.  The studies they refer to are very questionable and can't be verified by independent source.  It appears to be logical on the surface but as soon as you lift the crust it is all rotten inside.

There are so many studies ans surveys out there that contradict each other and can't be easily verified/confirmed to the point that they are simply meaningless.

[H.fructus]

    Have you tried raw meat?

Yes. I have consumed some animals while the animals were still moving. I opted for rare or raw when I did consume the animals. I consumed a high protein diet.

 You need HCl to digest vegetables, did you know?

All food goes through acidic stomach to kill germs initially.

But different food classes elicit different HCl concentrations. The more difficult to digest require more concentrated HCl.

    "About twenty-five years ago, still veg, it looked like I was getting osteoporosis."
Consuming dairy? Grains? Nuts? Seeds? If so, that is not surprising. My wrist inflammation diminished gradually when I replaced rare/raw fish with alkalizing foods. I still consumed some brown rice and flax seed pastas but I naturally experienced some inflammation to varying degrees until I eliminated the grains (in accordance with what one would expect from the scientific literature on the topic).

"I started eating (raw) meat."
At the expense of the the other more acidifying foods? Cooked food is more difficult to digest and more acidifying in general.

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[H.fructus]

In my experience, raw meat is NOT mucus forming."

Unless your experience includes an independent variable (alkalizing diet that excludes not only the meat in question but the nuts, seeds, grains, candy, dairy, etc) it is not even a fallacy of positive instances yet. To gain understanding of an exclusionary diet requires isolating variables. Cooking anything is going to degrade digestion and cause more mucus production, raw, unprocessed, wild game may actually have higher concentrations of acidic elements ie heme Fe, Cu, S, P, Zn, etc. (In contrast) What were your symptoms of your acidic diet before switching to a Paleo diet?

"raw paleo diet is a MUCUS FREE DIET."
I'm still looking for credible, scientific evidence for this. So far, I've found claims that it is less mucus-forming than cooked meat. If you have any scientific references I'd appreciate it.

"Rice in combination with cooked meat is very hard to digest."
Of course.
"  It is the foolish Filipino method of feeling full when he is actually experiencing difficulty in digestion."
That's virtually every culture, to varying degrees.

"successfully kicked out my 8 year old boy's rice addiction."

Understandable.

[goodsamaritan]

raw paleo diet is a mucus free diet
the only credible evidence I need is raw paleo diet is mucus free for myself and all my children.

I do not need any $$$ "studies" to tell me this.

Self experimentation rocks.

This is why we share experiences in this forum.

Try raw paleo diet for yourself, try raw organic meat yourself and you will know.

 

[DeadRamones]

I do not need any $$$ "studies" to tell me this.

Self experimentation rocks.


I agree. Although I'm still rather new(~6months) & not 100% RAF.  The only times I experience any mucous build up was when I ate raw meat for 1.5weeks, then ate all cooked meat the week after. I think it has to do more with the extreme switch in meat.

[H.fructus]

raw paleo diet is a mucus free diet
the only credible evidence I need is raw paleo diet is mucus free for myself and all my children.

By 'mucus free' are you claiming you and children don't get sick or have allergy symptoms?

I do not need any $$$ "studies" to tell me this.



"Self experimentation rocks."

I agree, which is why I asked if you had experience with a raw alkaline diet to contrast with the diet you now practice. I am asking for your experimenting experience in lieu of the absence of scientific studies supporting your claim that raw meat is not acidifying or mucus-forming for humans.

For instance, If a dieter is interested in healthy/natural diets yet experiences any sinusitis, hayfever, sinus infections, pleuria, colds or flues while on any particularly acidifying diet, I would ask him or her to contrast the frequency of such maladies before and after long term experimentation on an alkaline diet experiment/experience since mucus is formed as a natural reaction to undigested food particles for protection against putrefaction/rotting inside the stomach, mucus stores build up over long-term, remaining reservoirs for bacteria, viruses, etc.

"This is why we share experiences in this forum."

Exactly. Please elaborate.

"Try raw paleo diet for yourself"
I sort of did but it was rare meat and raw meat but I didn't do the long term totally raw, which is why I'm asking for any scientifically credible references for the claim that raw meat is not mucus-forming. Personal accounts with experience are also persuasive if details are shared.

'try raw organic meat yourself and you will know."

I'm having trouble believing raw meat is less mucus forming than raw fruit for instance, as I'm aware that fruit is mucus cleansing from experience and from the scientific literature on the topic. I'm asking for any data or personal accounts otherwise.