Weaning

[Michael]

As many of you know, I have a new 5 month old son and the time will soon be arriving when we'll be weaning him onto solids.  So far, he's purely breast-fed.  His mother is not raw or paleo but has been very co-operative with regards to her own diet and my advice throughout the pregnancy and breast-feeding period.  She's largely been following a Weston Price style diet.  I've also been ensuring that she gets plenty of raw animal foods at least in the form of whole eggs, home-made grass-fed beef jerky, jersey butter, occasional jersey cream/milk and raw fermented blue ice cod liver oil.  Fortunately, she LOVES the jerky I make so has been eating 2-3kgs per week with lots of raw jersey butter.

My son is doing incredibly well and is strong, well developed and seemingly advanced.  Of course, we also decided to eschew all vaccinations (as I did with my now 11 yr old daughter in my pre-raw days).

I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions for good early weaning foods?  Ideally, I would raise him on RAF but my partner - although accepting that RAF can be a part of his diet - also wants him to eat 'normal' food.  His diet is probably going to end up being a variation of a Price diet too with me emphasising raw meats and fats (I've been RAF for almost 9 years and now zero carb for the last few months).  I am going to be adamant that he is not fed any grains and no dairy (except, perhaps, raw butter). 

I'm thinking raw egg yolks, thinly sliced raw meats & ground suet, chopped lamb liver/heart, cod liver oil, vegetable soups/purees made with homemade bone stock, etc.  What do you guys think of him eating raw meats before he has teeth (still awaiting the 1st!)?  Obviously, I'd slice it thin and chop it up small but choking may be a concern.

Any thoughts, suggestions or experiences?

Thanks,

Michael

[djr_81]

What do you guys think of him eating raw meats before he has teeth (still awaiting the 1st!)?  Obviously, I'd slice it thin and chop it up small but choking may be a concern.

He'll be fine with it and most likely take right to it unlike some other baby foods.
My littlest brother had the oddest love of Braunschweiger as a toddler (1+ years) and would sit contented for hours gumming a piece of it. Never once did he choke on it, etc. so I think your little one should be fine there as well.
My only bit of advice is don't wean him completely yet unless you have to. It's fine to get him acclimated to solids but the breast milk is so beneficial to his development it'd be a shame to cut it short unless there was a good reason to do so (slowing lactation, etc.). Feed him solids once or twice a day and breast feed the other meals.

[Guittarman03]

I've thought of this before, how would you ween a child on to a diet high in raw animal products.  Especially without developed teeth and jaw muscles?  Meat can be pretty tough to chew, especially raw.  Well, I realized the answer one day flipping through the channels watching a mama bird vomit up food to her young'uns. 

In paleo times, a mother would have probably chewed up the food first, and then fed it to her child.  The food would easily go down, and the saliva would already have begun to break down the food.  Not only that, but I'm sure anitbodies would get passed as well.  Good luck convincing the wifey. 

[RawZi]

As many of you know, I have a new 5 month old son and the time will soon be arriving when we'll be weaning him onto solids.  So far, he's purely breast-fed.  His mother is not raw or paleo but has been very co-operative with regards to her own diet and my advice throughout the pregnancy and breast-feeding period.  She's largely been following a Weston Price style diet.  I've also been ensuring that she gets plenty of raw animal foods at least in the form of whole eggs, home-made grass-fed beef jerky, jersey butter, occasional jersey cream/milk and raw fermented blue ice cod liver oil.  Fortunately, she LOVES the jerky I make so has been eating 2-3kgs per week with lots of raw jersey butter.

    I think I'd give him egg yolks, calf or lamb liver, chopmeat I'd make fresh and share with him for fun, maybe try chewing food for him and possibly a bit of cream or milk here and there. 

My son is doing incredibly well and is strong, well developed and seemingly advanced.  Of course, we also decided to eschew all vaccinations (as I did with my now 11 yr old daughter in my pre-raw days).

I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions for good early weaning foods?  Ideally, I would raise him on RAF but my partner - although accepting that RAF can be a part of his diet - also wants him to eat 'normal' food.  His diet is probably going to end up being a variation of a Price diet too with me emphasising raw meats and fats (I've been RAF for almost 9 years and now zero carb for the last few months).  I am going to be adamant that he is not fed any grains and no dairy (except, perhaps, raw butter). 

    Ok, switch that bit of cream/milk for butter.  Maybe you want to try goat butter, as the Vitamin A in it is in more usable form than cows.

I'm thinking raw egg yolks, thinly sliced raw meats & ground suet, chopped lamb liver/heart, cod liver oil, vegetable soups/purees made with homemade bone stock, etc.  What do you guys think of him eating raw meats before he has teeth (still awaiting the 1st!)?  Obviously, I'd slice it thin and chop it up small but choking may be a concern.

Any thoughts, suggestions or experiences?

Thanks,

Michael

    Cook the vegetables thoroughly.  Babies don't digest fiber well.  I have experience with undercooked vegetables.  Personally I find thinly sliced backfat nicer. 

    In other cultures they don't start grain until the teeth are in a bit.  Meat they will start earlier if the teeth come in too late.

[TylerDurden]

I'd suggest raw egg-yolks and ground meat.

[William]

After reading that the only foods easily digested by babies are mothers' milk and raw meat, I would suggest not weaning, but adding mother-chewed raw grass finished and grass fed organic beef; maybe well-chewed jerky, as it AFAIK has been proven acceptable to all, unlike raw wet meat.
Note the experience of delfuego, whose youngest son has never eaten other than pemmican since weaning, with great success.

Experimenting on a baby with stuff that makes many sick, such as cooked veggies (evil carbs!) or any veggies, dairy (allergens), cooked animal anything including broth seems to me too adventurous and therefore risky.

If it were my child I would say caution and proven safe/good nutrition is the way.

[PaleoPhil]

I would recommend grassfed ground raw meat and grassfed ground suet/marrow when wheaning (basically what Lex eats), though I would recommend sticking with breastfeeding for as long as you can up to 3-4 years, which is what traditional HGs do. Pemmican appears to have worked well for Ray Audette's son (starting at age one!), who has a genius level IQ (anecdotally supporting my assertion that, if anything, avg Upper-Paleo-to-modern hunter-gatherer intelligence, as well as athleticism, was and is probably superior to avg. modern intelligence, rather than inferior, as so often portrayed -- primitive/RPD does not equal stupid):

10-02-2007, 11:05 PM
Ray Audette

Re: Nutritionally Complete One-Pot Meal
http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3361

The only food I know that be eaten exclusively long-term without vitamin or mineral deficiencies is traditional pemmican. It has only two ingredients, raw dehydrated meat and dessicated animal fat ( tallow ).

It was tested as a survival food by Vilhjalmur Stefansson ( perhaps Dr. E's favorite low-carb author ) under a grant from the U.S. Army during the 1930s Ironically only the Luftwaffe used it for this purpose during WW II. Stefansson also used it on several Arctic expeditions to cure scurvy among his crew.

My son Gray-Hawk weaned himself from his mother at age one year and ate pemmican as his only solid food for the next year ( he's 12 now and none the worse for it ).

--Ray Audette
author of NeanderThin


10-05-2007, 10:24 PM
Ray Audette Ray Audette is offline
New Member
        
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4
Default Re: Nutritionally Complete One-Pot Meal
Most commercial suppliers of pemmican overheat the meat ( health dept. rules ). This renders the resulting pemmican very tasteless and gritty. Good pemmican tastes like beef jerky pate. It's very easy to make.

My ancestors, French-Canadian Voyagers, ate nothing but Pemmican for 6 - 9 months every year while they paddled from Quebec to British Columbia ( and back ) to trade for furs. It is the most concentrated food and thus the best for travel.

Ray Audette


Re: Lowcarbing for decades?
http://www.cyclingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-188444.html

Ray Audette
  
> Ignoramus19260 wrote:
> > Do you know of anyone who lowcarbed for decades, to maintain weight?
> > How did it affect them?

I have been eating a Paleolithic Diet for 20 years. I eat no grains,
beans, potatoes, milk of other animals or refined sugars. These are
not edible to Primates without technological intervention.

I'm now 53 years old, six feet tall, 150 lbs ( 7% body fat). I no
longer have diabetes or arthritis. I never work out but have
excellent muscle definition and jogers have problems keeping up with
me and my hawk when I take them hunting. I eat like a pig often
consuming 9 hamburger paties ( 3 "triples" hold the buns) when I go to
McDonalds. I have eaten a full pound of bacon every morning for the
entire twenty years.

My son Gray-Hawk has been eating this way since conception. When he
weaned himself from his mother at age one he ate almost nothing but
pemmican ( the ultimate low-carb food)for over one year. He's now nine
and considered a gifted athlete, tested at genius level I.Q. and is a
very gifted artist.

Increased animal fat consumption since the invention of railroads and
refrigeration has added more years to our lives than any other
statistical factor. Recent nutrition studies of hundred year olds
done by a leading medical school ( U of Georgia see biblography at
website))have shown that these long-lived individuals difer from the
rest of us only in that they eat more saturated animal fat than most
people.

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com


Easy Childbirth on Paleo Diets
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/off-topic/easy-childbirth-on-paleo-diets/msg16719/#msg16719

.... From studies cited by [Vilhjalmur] Stefansson,
hunter-gatherers have far less trauma and labor in childbirth than do
agricultural women.  Just removing the hazards of gestational diabetes often
found in modern women ( resulting in very large babies) would improve these
statistics considerably but I suspect much more is involved.

When Gray-Hawk ( seven on May 14th ) was born, it was without doctors or
drugs.  We arrived at the mid-wives['] at 3:15 PM and he arrived at 5:20 after
2 hours of mild labor […].  As my prediction, five months earlier, of the easiest birth they had ever seen came true, the midwives bought six copies of my book.

After one year he weaned himself from his mother and would eat almost
nothing but Pemmican for the next year.  About the only exceptions were
watered-down fruit juice and pork rinds for teething.

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"

[Michael]

Thanks for your thoughts so far guys.  I feel a little more confident now about what to give him.  I, too, had read about African tribes, particularly, pre-digesting meats by chewing for their babies and - if possible - will try this method.

We certainly have no intention of stopping the breast feeding so perhaps weaning was the incorrect term.  I'm hoping that he can remain on good quality breast milk for at least his first year in addition to the careful introduction of solid foods.  If I can convince 'wifey' then I'd be inclined to follow your suggestions of raw egg yolk, raw ground grass-fed beef/lamb (probably with ground suet and/or bone marrow too), raw grass-fed chopped lamb liver/heart and - if possible - homemade jerky.  Alongside the breast milk I would expect that to be an incredibly good start for him!

I would certainly prefer to avoid the fruit & veg if I can persuade my partner and would see no need for the stock either if we were avoiding these.

I will eventually get around to starting a journal on here of my experiences raising my son raw paleo (as much as possible) as others have previously expressed an interest.  Hopefully, I'll be able to relay his general progress along with photographs of his facial development etc.

Thanks again for your input so far!

[PaleoPhil]

I would be interested in reading his progress. I hope he turns out as well as Gray-Hawk.

[RawZi]

Especially without developed teeth and jaw muscles?  Meat can be pretty tough to chew, especially raw.  Well, I realized the answer one day flipping through the channels watching a mama bird vomit up food to her young'uns.

    I'm not sure bird regurgitation is the same as bird vomit.  Their digestive system is different than ours.  I'm not saying that you mean they and humans are both the same.  I believe the Inuits chewed for elderly people as well, if necessary. 

In paleo times, a mother would have probably chewed up the food first, and then fed it to her child.  The food would easily go down, and the saliva would already have begun to break down the food.  Not only that, but I'm sure anitbodies would get passed as well.  Good luck convincing the wifey.

    If the man has trustworthy habits, he may not have breasts, but maybe he could pre-chew food. 

    Some carnivorous animals, the older members of the group eat from carcasses first, and then the youngsters eat from it after.  They also benefit from the saliva. 

    Some folivorous tree dwelling animals, the adults dwell mostly in the higher branches, while the younger ones spend their time mostly on lower branches.  As you can imagine, there is bacteria that comes with excrement that the youths eat along with the leaves, which helps colonize their digestive systems so they can assimilate nutrients better.

    I'm not saying you are a mere animal, or that we should follow one or more of their paths, but you get the point.  There can be many benefits, we don't know how many, to eating naturally.     

[PaleoPhil]

I doubt it's necessary to pre-chew the food, as that would be rather time consuming. Grinding should be sufficient. Ray fed his son pemmican after only a year without pre-chewing it.

[RawZi]

I doubt it's necessary to pre-chew the food, as that would be rather time consuming. ... Ray fed his son pemmican after only a year without pre-chewing it.

    I pre-chewed all pemmican that afterward I gave to my cats and they ate, but that's another story.  They're picky about new foods, and more likely to try them if they see I deem them tasty.  Might work for a baby too; I never thought of it. 

    Pemmican fat isn't raw, but if it works for the baby's health; go for it!

[PaleoPhil]

Pemmican fat isn't raw, true, but my point was that the meat didn't have to be chewed for Gray-Hawk to eat it, just ground/shredded up. Plus, you don't have to render fat, it could be ground too, the way Lex does.

[Josh]

What about heart and liver instead of muscle though...they're nice and soft and sit well in the stomach. Great that your kid has the chance to get a taste for raw meat early foods are so powerful I don't know if I can ever entirely lose cravings for em.

[Michael]

I hope he turns out as well as Gray-Hawke too PaleoPhil!

I did give him some homemade jerky a few days ago just to hold and suck and get used to the idea.  It was a piece long enough and firm enough that he wouldn't accidentally consume any of it but, already, he was going mad for it!!     I will probably play with grinding some jerky along with ground suet (unheated) when the time comes and see how he gets on with it.  The high heating of the fat in the pemmican making process is a concern of mine and a reason I don't eat it myself.  I've tried melting suet at low temp in my dehydrator to mix with ground jerky but it didn't get anywhere near melting.  I guess the melting point is too high.  I don't think I'll be giving Charlie cooked fats in any form.

I'll certainly be giving him grassfed lamb liver and heart Josh.  I agree that the softness of it will probably make it a good food for him - although in very small quantities of course due to the high levels of Vit A, D, copper etc.  Early foods are so powerful - in both the indelible footprint they leave on the cell memory and, of course, the potential for creating (or not!) a lifelong strong constitution.  Hence, anybody found feeding Charlie something I don't approve of (grandparents etc have been warned!!) will be receiving my wrath!!

[PaleoPhil]

I hope he turns out as well as Gray-Hawke too PaleoPhil!

I did give him some homemade jerky a few days ago just to hold and suck and get used to the idea.  It was a piece long enough and firm enough that he wouldn't accidentally consume any of it but, already, he was going mad for it!!

Yes, it's heartwearming seeing how much young kids love jerky and pemmican--much more than adults. This suggests to me that years of cooked modern diets damage people's taste buds and re-orient their brain and body chemistry quite considerably. I noticed there are even differences between the kids who were fed more modern vs. traditional foods as infants. One of my Paleo nephews was fed more modern stuff like wheat germ starting in the womb (which a prenatal care book my sister had read suggested would be good for developing fetuses, but is instead one of the worst food supplements a pregnant mother can take) and he likes jerky, pemmican and animal fat less than the one who was not as much modern junk. My super-Paleo nephew's parents were concerned that he loved fat too much, but I explained to them that it's a good sign, not a bad one.

  I will probably play with grinding some jerky along with ground suet (unheated) when the time comes and see how he gets on with it.  The high heating of the fat in the pemmican making process is a concern of mine and a reason I don't eat it myself.

Understandable. Like Delfuego, I heat my suet to 200 deg. when making tallow, which is below what the commercial processors and probably most people do, but I'm trying to think of a convenient way to do it at still lower temps. Eventually I think I'd like to get a professional grinder so I can just grind it like Lex does instead of rendering it.

  I've tried melting suet at low temp in my dehydrator to mix with ground jerky but it didn't get anywhere near melting.  I guess the melting point is too high.  I don't think I'll be giving Charlie cooked fats in any form.

Yeah, it's probably best not to get him hooked on cooked foods too early.

[William]

I'll certainly be giving him grassfed lamb liver and heart Josh. 

Copper is an essential nutrient, there is none in Mothers' milk, so babies are born with enormous stores of copper designed to last them several years. Note  the common distaste for liver, which is very high in copper.
These liver-hating kids are not crazy or perverse, they are trying to stay alive and well in spite of their parents' good intentions - with which the road to hell is paved.   

Giving your child liver will give a copper overdose=poisoning. Don't do it.

[RawZi]

    Were there any particular studies to quote on cooked or raw liver for kids?  Cooked liver I have always found very sickening.  Raw is sweet and smooth and can get bubbly, but I don't eat it often.

[William]

    Were there any particular studies to quote on cooked or raw liver for kids?  Cooked liver I have always found very sickening.  Raw is sweet and smooth and can get bubbly, but I don't eat it often.

Studies can be googled, but not needed, as there have been chemical analyses of mothers' milk and babies' organs. Google should turn up confirmation.

[Michael]

That's interesting William.  I do seem to recall that liver was one of the foods that some African women would pre-chew prior to feeding it to infants.

I agree with you about the risks with excess copper which is why I mentioned it earlier.  In your opinion, are even miniscule amounts too much?  It's such a nutritious food that it seems a shame to eschew it totally.

[van]

  Children have a remarkable ability to intuitively know, by taste and smell, what it is their bodies need.  This is true if the food hasn't been adulterated, by cooking, blending, freezing, mixing with other foods, and I don't know if the mother pre-chewing would alter the intuitive input or not.  I have witnessed this process with great amazement. 

[RawZi]

That's interesting William.  I do seem to recall that liver was one of the foods that some African women would pre-chew prior to feeding it to infants.

    With the carbs that are in liver, pre-chewing would likely reduce those, no?

    Cooked liver turns green colored on the surface almost like the Statue of Liberty, if it sits out a couple hours.  I've had raw liver for months.  Mine has never turned green yet.  I wonder if it's like av's study with the dogs, himself, swordfish and mercury he wrote up in a newsletter of his a couple of years ago.

[PaleoPhil]

 Children have a remarkable ability to intuitively know, by taste and smell, what it is their bodies need.  This is true if the food hasn't been adulterated, by cooking, blending, freezing, mixing with other foods, and I don't know if the mother pre-chewing would alter the intuitive input or not.  I have witnessed this process with great amazement.  

I've read that infants shouldn't eat honey, due to risk of infant botulism. Do infants know intuitively not to eat raw honey or is the risk eliminated by a healthy system produced by RPD eating from conception? Wouldn't it be better to be on the safe side in this case and not let even an Instincto-dieting infant eat raw honey?

[RawZi]

Do infants know intuitively not to eat raw honey or is the risk eliminated by a healthy system produced by RPD eating from conception? Wouldn't it be better to be on the safe side in this case and not let even an Instincto-dieting infant eat raw honey?

    Doesn't av give all babies unheated honey?  My Mom gave me honey as a newborn, if I'm not mistaken, and I didn't get botulism nor colic, and never got pneumonia as a child nor flu nor the childhood diseases nor pollen allergies.  I was healthy till they gave me milk and cookies in school.  I believe cooked honey causes botulism.  Honey is delicate.  It should never be warmed above about ninety-five degrees fahrenheit.  I didn't give mine honey, as I was vegetarian at the time.

[RawZi]

Recipe for Living without Disease

UNHEATED HONEY contains an insulin-like substance that is
produced by bees when collecting nectar. .... That honey
is wonderful for infants, fed in small amounts at a time.

Infant Immune Booster
8 Servings
1 cup organic raw liver
...
2 raw eggs
1/4 teaspoon unheated honey
Cut liver into small chunks. .... Squeeze pouch to speed
straining. Use nipple with large hole.

Copyright 2005 Aajonus Vonderplanitz, All Rights Reserved

I've seen new babies fed on his formulas, beautiful healthy babies looking and responding like breastfed ones.