Weaning

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for the info.

[Naomi Aldort]

There is no need to wean, but also no need to feed anything other than breast-milk. Nature made no mistake. Many babies breast-feed exclusively are not interested in anything else for a couple of "YEARS" not months. That's best for them.

In addition, to help your son become self-directed, let him decide when to start eating. It is his choice. It is best not to spoon feed at all. Let your baby be with you when you eat. When he is interested and reaches out to try food with his own hand and his own volition, let him try safe and healthy raw foods that do not require spoon feeding. Feeding babies is an artificial and needless way of replacing breast-milk.  Just like you don't "walk" him when he can't walk, there is no need to spoon feed before he can feed himself. But he can feed himself if you put food on his tray and he tries it on his own. He will spit it anyway. He needs only mother's milk.

Truly, your son will grow healthfully and intelligently on breast-milk alone and that's best. And he knows when to eat and the timing is up to him, when he can, on his own. I know this is not the usual mainstream thinking. But consider it. I raised three boys this way and I have counseled thousands with great results of independent children and healthy eaters. If your wife needs to replace breastfeeding or part of it, go for raw milk, the closest to the breast-milk. Humans thrive on milk for the first few years.

I hope this is not only jarring but also mind opening and helpful. Enjoy your baby and don't try to control when he weans. Nature knows best. The baby knows.
                                                        Naomi Aldort Ph.D. Author of Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves

[RawZi]

    Naomi, wow, I enjoyed reading that.  This being a paleo forum too, I think paleo peoples breastfed each child at least six years.  I have listened to a podcast of yours on raising children.  If you read through this forum, you will see I don't go around saying, "good job", when someone posts something good.  That's not the way I normally act, plus I might add: If anyone here listens to your podcast, they will know that's not a good thing to do.  I can't help it though, forgive me: Naomi, that was a great post!

[PaleoPhil]

There is no need to wean, but also no need to feed anything other than breast-milk. Nature made no mistake. ...

I hope this is not only jarring but also mind opening and helpful. Enjoy your baby and don't try to control when he weans. Nature knows best. The baby knows.
                                                        Naomi Aldort Ph.D. Author of Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves

It's not jarring to us here, because it falls right in line with hunter-gatherer and Instincto practice.

RawZi, I thought the range of breastfeeding periods in HG societies was around 2 to 7 years, with most around 3 to 4 years, rather than a minimum of 6 (http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/priscilla_colletto.html, http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/extract/106/5/S2/1276).

[RawZi]

    There's a member of this forum, Elainie, she provided many links in open discussion forum about different tribes while we were both members of GI2MR.  There were Inuit nursing up to 6 - 9 years of age, Japanese boys now normal to be nursed while in elementary school, and many tribes with obscure names, I can't remember, but they nursed a long time.  Although she still has an account here, she has not actively been contributing, I guess because she finds steamed vegetables and supplements to suit her well.  I would guess if you post a question reference this to her welcoming committee thread, she would respond.  She has several children and nursed seventeen years straight without interval, the last child I think for five years.  She's also given birth (successfully) lotus style? (leaving the placenta attached till it dries up)

    On PBS I've seen children even early teens running to suckle when scared (Africa).  I do not think there was starvation or other issues involved.  The people looked well.

RawZi, I thought the range of breastfeeding periods in HG societies was around 2 to 7 years, with most around 3 to 4 years, rather than a minimum of 6 (http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/priscilla_colletto.html, http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/extract/106/5/S2/1276).

[PaleoPhil]

What I mean is, if one traditional tribe does it for less than 6 years, than 6 years is not the minimum for traditional peoples, right? Six might be better than lower numbers, but it would then not be the minimum.

[RawZi]

    I've had cows, cats and goats.  They nursed each for years each, when I allowed them to do what they do from the beginning.  Human babies are born less developed than even other primates.  From what I've read from primatologists, we are born earlier in our gestational cycles than other animals, because of the large human skull.  Living without houses, stores, cars etc breastmilk is the most convenient, natural and consistent food possible.  Consistency is important in raising children.  Some more agricultural tribes may have nursed for two and three years, but more paleo ones I believe nurse six, seven and eight years.

What I mean is, if one traditional tribe does it for less than 6 years, than 6 years is not the minimum for traditional peoples, right? Six might be better than lower numbers, but it would then not be the minimum.

[Michael]

There is no need to wean, but also no need to feed anything other than breast-milk. Nature made no mistake. Many babies breast-feed exclusively are not interested in anything else for a couple of "YEARS" not months. That's best for them.

In addition, to help your son become self-directed, let him decide when to start eating. It is his choice. It is best not to spoon feed at all. Let your baby be with you when you eat. When he is interested and reaches out to try food with his own hand and his own volition, let him try safe and healthy raw foods that do not require spoon feeding. Feeding babies is an artificial and needless way of replacing breast-milk.  Just like you don't "walk" him when he can't walk, there is no need to spoon feed before he can feed himself. But he can feed himself if you put food on his tray and he tries it on his own. He will spit it anyway. He needs only mother's milk.

Truly, your son will grow healthfully and intelligently on breast-milk alone and that's best. And he knows when to eat and the timing is up to him, when he can, on his own. I know this is not the usual mainstream thinking. But consider it. I raised three boys this way and I have counseled thousands with great results of independent children and healthy eaters. If your wife needs to replace breastfeeding or part of it, go for raw milk, the closest to the breast-milk. Humans thrive on milk for the first few years.

I hope this is not only jarring but also mind opening and helpful. Enjoy your baby and don't try to control when he weans. Nature knows best. The baby knows.
                                                        Naomi Aldort Ph.D. Author of Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves

Hi Naomi,

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences and recommendations.

We're certainly keen to breast-feed as long as possible.  The main problem is that my partner is reluctantly being forced back to work for financial reasons.  Without intending to pass the blame - it appears that the wonderful government in this country seem to do their utmost to ensure parents are unable to fulfill their obligations of raising their children properly!  Whether it's a conspiracy to ensure the production line of disassociated little worker bees continues I'm not sure?!    Fortunately, we've managed to arrange our finances that she's only going to work 3 days per week.  But, we're a little unsure about how she's going to be able to breast-feed him on her 4 days out of work whilst also expressing milk for the days she's not there.  In addition to that, there are pressures from childminders and nurseries that they must be on solid foods!!  Crazy I know!  Any suggestions?

I fully agree with your comments about letting my son choose when and what he wants to eat.  I have no intention of spoon-feeding him but aim to simply arrange a selection of healthy paleo foods on a plate for him to pick and choose as he wishes.  He has certainly started showing an interest when we're eating and drinking which suggests to me that he is choosing to try food in addition to his breast milk now.  But, if he decides not to eat it then that's fine.  It's actually reassuring to know that you think he could go "years" on breastmilk alone.  I was confident of that myself (if my partner's eating correctly) but your advice will assure her also.

I've now looked at your website and am going to order your book from amazon - it looks wonderful!  Congratulations on all of the good work you're clearly doing Naomi.  I must say, also, that I am immensely impressed with the musical talent of your sons - Lennon and Oliver!  This has great significance for me as myself and my partner (who play piano/vocals and flugel horn respectively) are very keen for our son to study both cello and piano.  I hope he can become as great as your own children (if he chooses to do so, of course!).

[Michael]

I've read that infants shouldn't eat honey, due to risk of infant botulism. Do infants know intuitively not to eat raw honey or is the risk eliminated by a healthy system produced by RPD eating from conception? Wouldn't it be better to be on the safe side in this case and not let even an Instincto-dieting infant eat raw honey?

That's my understanding too PaleoPhil.  I'm not sure what age they refer to in this but I think it was only in the very early period of development.  I do think that it would be safer not to give an infant the choice just to err on the side of caution.  However, I no longer consume honey myself anyway and see absolutely no reason why I would need to give it to my son.

[PaleoPhil]

RawZi, can you link me to any of the sources Elainie provided or provide some of your own (I'm not interested in becoming a member of that raw vegan forum)? If the Inuit nursed "up to" 6 - 9 years, that means some nursed for fewer years, right? The typical HG numbers I've seen have been more in the 3-4 year range. That doesn't mean that some people didn't breastfeed for 6-9 years, just that I haven't seen those numbers reported as avg/typical for HGs. For example:

"Over 25 years ago, Schaefer (1973) reported that, among Canadian Eskimos, the traditional 3 to 4 years of prolonged breastfeeding ...." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1595048/

Since the typical spacing period between having children among HGs is also generally listed as 4 years, the 3-4 year breastfeeding figure matches up well with that.


Michael, if caregivers that your child should get solid food then you could give it Lex's raw mix or pemmican. That could be the option you give the caregivers: breast milk or raw mix or low-heat pemmican. If they have a problem with that, then you could refer them to Dr. Kurt Harris, Drs. Micheal and Mary Eades, Dr. Ron Hoffman, etc.

[RawZi]

RawZi, can you link me to any of the sources Elainie provided or provide some of your own (I'm not interested in becoming a member of that raw vegan forum)? If the Inuit nursed "up to" 6 - 9 years, that means some nursed for fewer years, right? The typical HG numbers I've seen have been more in the 3-4 year range. That doesn't mean that some people didn't breastfeed for 6-9 years, just that I haven't seen those numbers reported as avg/typical for HGs. For example:

"Over 25 years ago, Schaefer (1973) reported that, among Canadian Eskimos, the traditional 3 to 4 years of prolonged breastfeeding ...." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1595048/

Since the typical spacing period between having children among HGs is also generally listed as 4 years, the 3-4 year breastfeeding figure matches up well with that.

    I'm not an expert at the history or anything along those lines of breast feeding.  Elaine put forth lots of amazing stuff about it at GI2MR, but eventually deleted her account, and in that forum all your posts disappear when your account is off.

    From your link:

McKim et al. (1998) discovered that, among Canadian Eskimos, 18.4% initiated breastfeeding, 4.5% were still breastfeeding at 4 weeks, and no one was breastfeeding at 16 weeks and beyond.

    From rawpaleoforum I read members writing that Eskimos even a hundred years ago were contaminated by white man with the idea and providing of cooking pots.  This tells me other issues sources nutrition could have been affected even that far back in time, maybe further.

    I remember as a child reading books and articles about real people (mothers babies) who breast fed.  There was an African tribe that the women kept the babies on their backs all day while these same mothers were working all day.  The women had a practice of taking their children off their back carrier every single hour without fail and nursing them for at least a minute.  They wouldn't have another child for four and a half years each time, even though they utilized no other method of family planning. 

    Is there proof, like carbon dating or something, that in times of history (or prehistory in this case as it be) of not nursing more than four years?  I did not nurse any child of mine that long, but I do personally know women who nurse longer each child, and I have seen this in the flesh.  If there are people who do this now, and the families are healthy, I see no reason it was not possible then.  I assume most people have not seen this, as it surprised me.  I thought it looked very strange at first.  I did not think Americans ever nursed past two years of age.

[PaleoPhil]

....    From your link:

Right, those are figures from 1995, well after "the traditional 3 to 4 years of prolonged breastfeeding" had been abandoned. I have seen multiple sources claim that the typical breastfeeding period among numerous HG peoples was 3-4 or so years. None claimed that 6 years was the minimum. I would be very interested in any that did, because that would be an intriguing claim that if true could greatly alter the current standard view.

   From rawpaleoforum I read members writing that Eskimos even a hundred years ago were contaminated by white man with the idea and providing of cooking pots.  This tells me other issues sources nutrition could have been affected even that far back in time, maybe further.

Perhaps, but that would also affect Elainie's sources.

They wouldn't have another child for four and a half years each time, even though they utilized no other method of family planning.

Exactly. There's that 4+ year figure again, that frequently gets mentioned.

   Is there proof, like carbon dating or something, that in times of history (or prehistory in this case as it be) of not nursing more than four years?  I did not nurse any child of mine that long, but I do personally know women who nurse longer each child, and I have seen this in the flesh.  If there are people who do this now, and the families are healthy, I see no reason it was not possible then.  I assume most people have not seen this, as it surprised me.  I thought it looked very strange at first.  I did not think Americans ever nursed past two years of age.

I've never claimed that no one ever nurses a child beyond 4 years and have seen video reports showing modern women nursing 8 and 9 year olds. All I'm saying is that 6 years is not generally accepted as the minimum number of years of breastfeeding among HGs. If you come across any evidence that it is, I'd be interested to see it.

[RawZi]

Right, those are figures from 1995, well after "the traditional 3 to 4 years of prolonged breastfeeding" had been abandoned. I have seen multiple sources claim that the typical breastfeeding period among numerous HG peoples was 3-4 or so years.

From your same link:

Native American women often fall into these categories (Long et al., 1995). The Inupiat Eskimos—a particular group of Native Americans who live in the North Slope region of Alaska, along the coast of the Arctic Ocean—seem to be experiencing a decline in the prevalence of breastfeeding. During the last 25 years, authors have documented that the Inupiat's lifestyle has changed from one of isolated subsistence to that of economic and social involvement in the prevailing American culture. This change has affected all areas of life (Blackwood, 1981). The Inupiats, like many other Native and Eskimo groups, have experienced lifestyle alterations directed away from their traditional cultural values. Within many Eskimo cultures, among the first things affected by acculturation was a change in the sources of food (Sayed, Hildes, & Schaefer, 1976). Blackwood (1981) reports that, during the 1950s, efforts were made by public health workers to replace and/or supplement breastfeeding with formula feeding, leading to a large shift toward formula feeding, especially in the first few months of life. Over 25 years ago, Schaefer (1973) reported that, among Canadian Eskimos, the traditional 3 to 4 years of prolonged breastfeeding had been shortened or abandoned with the increasing use of bottle feeding.

    This could have been the 1950's, the 3-4 years, I don't think that could be compared to paleo there.  Go to an organization like La Leche League International.  I'm sure they have many links and books at their disposal, as well as info right at the front of their minds.  They were amazingly helpful to me and mine when I had little questions or doubts in any way about breast feeding.

[RawZi]

All I'm saying is that 6 years is not generally accepted as the minimum number of years of breastfeeding among HGs. If you come across any evidence that it is, I'd be interested to see it.

    I believe you that it is not generally accepted in academia or civilization.  Even if it is accepted at a couple of universities or in several studies, it may never be generally accepted, and I do accept that.  I do not know every one who conducts each study nor their experience nor motives.  At this point in life I am a little happier with intuition than written "evidence".  If I come across evidence, I will show you.

[PaleoPhil]

From your same link:
...Go to an organization like La Leche League International.  I'm sure they have many links and books at their disposal, as well as info right at the front of their minds.  They were amazingly helpful to me and mine when I had little questions or doubts in any way about breast feeding.

Here's what they say: <<"Pediatricians and parents should be aware that exclusive breastfeeding is sufficient to support optimal growth and development for approximately the first 6 months of life and provides continuing protection against diarrhea and respiratory tract infection. Breastfeeding should be continued for at least the first year of life and beyond for as long as mutually desired by mother and child." * As solids are introduced, usually around the middle of the first year, your baby will shift his primary source of nutrition from your milk to other foods.>>

That sounds like pretty standard advice for today. The info from Paleo nutrition and anthropology sources indicates that breast milk alone is sufficient up to 4 years, but that high quality foods like raw meat and fat and pemmican are also fine after 6 months to a year.

[RawZi]

Here's what they say: <<"Pediatricians and parents should be aware that exclusive breastfeeding is sufficient to support optimal growth and development for approximately the first 6 months of life and provides continuing protection against diarrhea and respiratory tract infection. Breastfeeding should be continued for at least the first year of life and beyond for as long as mutually desired by mother and child."

    That's this link: http://www.llli.org/FAQ/firstfoods.html

    I mean, telephone your local LLLI chapter.  Speak with your area's group LLL leader, wherever you are.  She can tell you things and give you information that is not on their FAQ list above.

[PaleoPhil]

OK, I already received a reply from the local La Leche League contact and it matches much of what I found elsewhere, with various numbers ranging between 2.5 to 7 years:

<<This is such a fascinating question and really brings out the point that breastfeeding is not merely a biological function but is strongly influenced by culture.  I think the reason you've found varying ranges is because the ranges varied.  Katherine Dettwyler, of Texas A&M University, has studied and written on the "natural" age of weaning.  Based on various biological factors and comparing humans to primates, a "natural" age of weaning might be anywhere between 2 1/2 and 7 years of age.  Baby teeth were once referred to as "milk" teeth; children begin to lose their first teeth between the ages of 5 and 7. www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html 

The longer duration of breastfeeding helps the child spacing and increases the likelihood of that child reaching adulthood.

According to Meredith Small, author of Our Babies, Ourselves, the !Kung San people of the Kalahari Desert, Botswana, are "some of the last remaining hunters and gatherers on earth."  They are a semi-nomadic people still living for the most part a traditional, for them, lifestyle.  The children nurse for four years.   The Ache of Paraguay are a people who were traditionally hunter gatherers in a forest habitat and have been living in reservations for the last 40 years.  Their current lifestyle "combines settled horticulture with long treks into the forest.  These treks basically present the same restrictions, opportunities and dangers that living in the forest presented only a few years ago." The children here nurse for two years.  "Ache women have an average of  eight live births, much more than the !Kung San people of other South American Indian groups."

On the other hand, I recently read in The Spirit of the English Language by John Wulsin  that Chaucer probably nursed until he was five.  Juliet, of Romeo and Juliet nursed until the age of three.>>

[Michael]

Here's what they say: <<"Pediatricians and parents should be aware that exclusive breastfeeding is sufficient to support optimal growth and development for approximately the first 6 months of life and provides continuing protection against diarrhea and respiratory tract infection. Breastfeeding should be continued for at least the first year of life and beyond for as long as mutually desired by mother and child." * As solids are introduced, usually around the middle of the first year, your baby will shift his primary source of nutrition from your milk to other foods.>>

That sounds like pretty standard advice for today. The info from Paleo nutrition and anthropology sources indicates that breast milk alone is sufficient up to 4 years, but that high quality foods like raw meat and fat and pemmican are also fine after 6 months to a year.

Fascinating research and discussion guys.  I wish I had more time to study this subject myself and participate in this more fully but, unfortunately, I don't at the moment and am not greatly versed in this area.  My gut feeling is that these points, PaleoPhil, are relevant and sufficient for our needs.  Also, Naomi's comments regarding empowering our children to choose when to feed themselves is important and would also be a factor in the variance of age ranges you're finding, I think.

For my own son, I hope my partner is able to feed him for the first 2 years at least but will also be offering him raw paleo foods soon (now 6 months old) as he seems to be showing an interest in foods/drinks and is demonstrating a noticeable decrease in weight gain over recent weeks.  As with all these discussions regarding diet and health, it's important not to lose sight of the importance of individual needs and circumstance.

[PaleoPhil]

I agree 100% with everything you said, Michael. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Treisee]

Hello Michael

I am just curious as to how the last few months of weaning and feeding of your son has gone? What is his diet like now that he is getting a lot older and more independent?

Cheerio
Treis

[Michael]

Hello Treis,

Albeit a little late, may I wish you a warm welcome to the forum.  Thanks for your interest in this subject.  I'll relate a little of the experiences so far to you and others who may be interested or find it useful.

My son, Charlie, is now almost 15 months old and is certainly a little boy now as opposed to a baby.  He is walking quite well and shows great interest in everything.  He is incredibly strong too and my partner already finds it's beyond her to control him when needed as he's too strong for her.  I sometimes struggle myself!  One can feel the incredible strength in his arms and bones already - particularly if unlucky enough to receive an accidental blow to the face from a flailing arm or head.  Growing up in a large family I have much experience around babies and children and have never known anything like it!  His head, particularly, is like a solid lump of rock!  His teeth, also, never fail to raise a comment when we're out.  Strangers are forever amazed at how big and white they are!    I'm beginning to wonder if he is foregoing the milk teeth stage!

Charlie is still being fed breast milk extensively which I'm extremely happy about.  He's shown no indication of choosing not to continue with this as yet and we intend leaving this choice up to him.

Incredibly, he's only really been eating food over the last couple of months or so and, even now, it's not in great quantities.  I suppose this is partly because he's still receiving great nutrients from the breast milk and also because the solid food he is receiving is highly nutritious so he only requires small amounts.  Certainly, he appears to be growing very well compared to his peers and the weight difference is significant when compared to similar sized children.  I don't subscribe to the modern day phenomena of blending anything and everything into puree to feed him and would rather he eats real food when his body suggests it's ready.  I think great physical and psychological damage can possibly result from doing otherwise.  This has caused a great deal of stress and friction between myself and my partner along with other family members as they're all so overwhelmingly brainwashed with the accepted views in this respect.  Fortunately, my partner has now recognised that her concerns had no foundation.  My mother on the other hand, I'm sure, would've been so happy if he were being fed vast quantities of pureed cooked vegetables and grains even if the resultant poor health was in stark contrast to his current accepted thriving health.  If he is particularly unhappy or tired one day or if he has a couple of nights not sleeping well it all gets blamed by family on our dietary choices.  They're so indoctrinated into current thinking and the accepted modern view that the obvious huge positive differences between him and other children somehow becomes overlooked!

His diet is not perfect in my own view in many respects and it is not precisely the kind of food I would CHOOSE to give him.  There are compromises being made partly due to my partner's insistence and partly due to Charlie's own choices when accepting or rejecting particular foods.  I have certainly endeavoured to feed him a variety if raw paleo foods in different forms as would be my preference but he's shown no interest. 

Since he started eating, we have been able to feed him the following foods:  raw grass-fed jersey butter, raw egg yolks, raw goat yoghurt, homemade beef bone stock used as a base to prepare a fishy broth (his preferred food) using a variety of fish & seafood including tuna, mackerel, wild alaskan salmon, mussels, cockles, crab & shrimp.  I sometimes manage to scrape a little raw beef or raw lamb heart from a steak using a lemon zester and mix this into his cooled broth.  He does thoroughly enjoy unpasteurised sheep/goat cheese but I'm not keen to provide him with dairy and have even stopped giving him the raw goat yoghurt.  He drinks nothing but breast milk and glass bottled mineral water.  To my amazement, he actually loves the Green Pastures Blue Ice fermented cod liver oil too so he occasionally has a 1ml shot of this with his meals.

He has never eaten (to my knowledge!) any fruits/fruit juices, vegetables or grains.

Is there anything else you'd like to know?  I'm happy to answer any questions.

[PaleoPhil]

.... I have certainly endeavoured to feed him a variety if raw paleo foods in different forms as would be my preference but he's shown no interest. ....

This boy appears to like liver (but be careful to avoid hypervitaminosis A from excess liver)--at least when it's mixed with raw milk and egg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OGGE6zdXk.

It's not raw, but I've yet to encounter a young child that didn't like pemmican. I wonder if a raw form of pemmican would be tasty--like air-dried beef jerky blended with marrow or other soft animal fat that might not need to be rendered?

Based on http://www.westonaprice.org/childrens-health/319-recipes-for-homemade-baby-formula.html, the following raw foods might be good for an infant/young child:

liver
coconut oil
fermented cod liver oil

And I would think that beef blood would be good. But I haven't researched infant foods thoroughly, so your guess is probably as good as mine.

[Michael]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Phil.

Yes, I had seen that video recently on another thread somewhere.  Very interesting, although I'm not so sure vast quantities of liver are a particularly wise idea for an infant.

I haven't tried giving Charlie any liver yet.  He has had raw heart grated into his cooled broth but I've suspected the liver taste may be too strong so far.  It's a fine balancing act to avoid excessive and expensive food wastage! 
He strongly detests VCO (which I think is, perhaps, telling of it's position with regard to being a valid human food).
As I mentioned, he does love the fermented CLO and has been having a 1ml shot quite frequently.

I'm very keen for him to have jerky and he does enjoy sucking/chewing it and has done since he was about 8 months old.  Hopefully, when his teeth are all through he'll be able to eat it along with some raw fats.  I'm still not sure about pemmican and the ongoing 'discussions' on the forum about it have only confused me further.  I'll probably avoid it if I can get him eating other RPD foods.

Any other suggestions greatly welcomed! 

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Phil.

Yes, I had seen that video recently on another thread somewhere.  Very interesting, although I'm not so sure vast quantities of liver are a particularly wise idea for an infant.

I don't think the couple in the video specified the amount of liver used, and I don't recall Aajonus recommending large intakes for neonates, so I doubt it's "vast quantities."

I haven't tried giving Charlie any liver yet.  He has had raw heart grated into his cooled broth but I've suspected the liver taste may be too strong so far.

The father in that video said the baby loved liver the first time he tried it.

I'm still not sure about pemmican and the ongoing 'discussions' on the forum about it have only confused me further.  I'll probably avoid it if I can get him eating other RPD foods.

Any other suggestions greatly welcomed!  

I meant raw pemmican rather than pemmican.

[Michael]

No, you're right Phil, I don't think the video did specify exact amounts.  I guess it just sounded like vast quantities to me when they said he drinks 5 or 6 bottles of this 'formula' every day and nothing else.  Obviously, I don't know the amount of liver in the formula AV gave them (and loaned out my AV recipe book years ago so can't check!) but I'd be concerned about copper and vitamin A/D overdose nonetheless.

I'm still a little unsure what the consensus is on methods of making 'raw' pemmican particularly when my absence from the forum meant I was only sporadically following threads.  I got the impression that William heats his fat greatly in excess of 118 deg C but considers it raw because he filters out the deleterious proteins.  Inga, I believe, makes her raw pemmican using bone marrow which would be delicious but I have great trouble sourcing even tiny quantities of this, unfortunately.

Could you point me in the direction of any specific threads or links with instructions on making raw pemmican Phil?

Of course, the other problem I'd have is that I also greatly struggle to obtain sufficient quantities of raw suet too - hence my own return to raw grass-fed butter!

Any suggestions from other members who have raised RPD children or do not necessarily even have children but have some good ideas of how they'd try raising their own RPD children?!