awesome Crossfit workout.

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

cant wait to try this one!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MElygxq8OfM

[Raw Kyle]

Once I get a big tire and tighten up my routine a little I'll try and post a workout vid. I have had some very good workouts at the jiu jit su gym; circuit stuff. The best one was a minute on each of: pushups, situps, ab rolls, jumping rope and 1-2 sprawl drills then a minute break then through the circuit again.

[TheWayCreatesTheWarrior]

Once I get a big tire and tighten up my routine a little I'll try and post a workout vid. I have had some very good workouts at the jiu jit su gym; circuit stuff. The best one was a minute on each of: pushups, situps, ab rolls, jumping rope and 1-2 sprawl drills then a minute break then through the circuit again.

its crazy how 20-30minutes of some type of circuit training is more physically taxing than like a hour running or something.

funny, i just drove past a garage a couple days ago, and they had 3 huge tractor tires leaning against the building. i wanted to ask how much they wanted for one, but im broke right now so i guess i can wait on the tire....i still gotta get rings first!!

also, i plan on getting a camera this fall, so ill definitely post some workouts too. i always love watching others workouts, so ill  definitely be watching yours.

[wodgina]

Check out this guy. Maniac. He loves pain. I would of gone longer and taken my shirt off earlier with the amount of girls in the background 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdsyBrt77dM&feature=related

[ludachr1s7]

hey guys im new to the forum and have been following the original paleo diet by cordain for a while and have just been introduced to the raw paleo a couple months ago along with the idea of essentially zero carbs.

Crossfit has been my workout regimen for almost 7 months now and i have read various posts on their site about the incompatibility of zero carb diets and crossfit workouts.  I am wondering if any of you have experience with this and crossfit.

personally i have experienced similar energy levels but MUCH longer recovery time.  is this normal?  it seems that to not overwork myself i have to go 2 on 1 off schedule because by the third day im so sore i can't move.  It is worth noting I consider myself in pretty good shape, i could follow the 3/1 schedule easily before i went basically zero carb.

any anecdotal testimonies would be greatly appreciated

thanks.

[TylerDurden]

Yes, this was mentioned by some rawpalaeo athletes like Angelo. They noticed that recovery-time on zero-carb took some days longer than on low-carb. I noticed something similiar in the gym - weight-lifting on zero-carb became a hopeless proposition. Simple stuff like swimming wasn't a problem on zero-carb, though.

[ludachr1s7]

hmm thanks for the response, would it help to eat more fat or protein? if so what kinds of fat?

[Guittarman03]

I don't do crossfit per say, but I like to do functional, multiple large muscle group movements at least once a week.  I never really had many problems with zero carb when lifting, but I never did combine the two for that long either, 3 - 5 days at most.  After that my health starts declining on zero carb, regardless of working out or not.   After experimenting with cyclical carb loading the past few weeks (vs low carb all the time for a few months), I've got to say that it seems carbs can be used strategically to see some good results.

I'm fairly convinced that to be more than your casual athlete or weekend warrior, you need to consume some carbs.  If you're going for the longer slower endurance stuff, high fat is probably the better way to go, as you're not really tapping into your glycogen reserves and keto-adaption will provide the long steady state energy you need.  But guys that get in to really high intensity stuff (like crossfit), need the immediate energy that carbs provide (glycogen).

Quite a few zero carbers would debate this, citing growth hormone response, and gluconeogenesis.  But there is a limit to how much glycogen can be synthesized from protein and fat, and I don't think it is enough to meet the body's potential after a serious glycogen depleting workout.  I suspect that the longer recovery time on zero carb may be related to the time (and unnecessary energy) it takes to replenishment glycogen via glucose synthesis.  Why use your dietary proteins to go through a complex process of synthesizing carbs when you can just consume them directly?

Protein / fat ratio depends on the person, and even on the season.  I eat much less fat now that summer is here, but in the winter I can hardly get enough.  Extra fat will tend to keep the weight on, whereas less fat extra protein will help you shed a few pounds, so it depends on your goals.  Eat animal fat, grassfed if possible.  It is more filling and has more energy than extracted oils.  There are other benefits over extracted oils, but I'm not savvy on them; Tyler or Lex can speak to the reasons much better than me. 

Last, if you are eating primarily cooked zero carb, you need the nutrients and benefits of fruits/veg.  You don't need to eat tons, really no more than 35% of your calories, but you really won't be doing your body any favors by zc unless it's raw (even then you may not be able to keep it up). 

[ludachr1s7]

thanks for a great response, thats what i was looking for.  i really like the way ive been feeling lately with even lower carbs than a normal paleo, i have basically cut out fruit and kept a few veggies and i don't really want to introduce any carbs in or around the workout like the CKD or TKD suggest.  i suppose i may just cut back to a 2 on 1 off schedule and be happy until maybe i adapt or something we'll see.

I wish i could start a raw animal diet but i just don't think it is feasible now.  I don't really have an option to buy quality meats, only grocery store stuff and being in college when classes start up dining halls only have cooked food, but i will stay paleo, i love it.

thanks for your help

[Ioanna]

Do most people here do crossfit-like workouts?  If so, do you also do other types of workouts (I know some people wrote about martial arts, etc.)?  What is the duration of your workouts and how many times per week?

[wodgina]

I really think the jury is still out Tyler on this recovery time being slower on zero carb. Maybe for unpaleo things like crossfit or 4 hour MTB races but still...

I find crossfit stuff way too taxing I don't enjoy it and you just don't need to such taxing workouts IMHO. Just lift heavy weights with heaps of squats etc or do something fun like martial arts or surfing or downhill mountain biking or skiing where your having so much fun you don't even realise your excercising.

[Satya]

Last, if you are eating primarily cooked zero carb, you need the nutrients and benefits of fruits/veg.  You don't need to eat tons, really no more than 35% of your calories, but you really won't be doing your body any favors by zc unless it's raw (even then you may not be able to keep it up). 

I completely disagree with these statements, and I do so with experience as a zero carb eater for 2 months.  I do eat some raw, but the benefits of zero carb extend to people who eat cooked foods too.  No one needs to eat any fruits and vegetables for nutrients.  In fact, fruits and veg increase your needs for some nutrients like vitamin c.  But again, unless you experience the changes on zc personally, you will never understand what those of us who have are talking about.

Workouts:
Sun - bis and tris
Mon - Abs, 3-4 mile run
Tue - legs, teach taekwondo
Wed - delts, practice taekwondo
Th - chest,  teach taekwondo
F - back, practice taekwondo
S - off weights, 3-4 mile run

Weights usually take 45 minutes, taekwondo is 1-2 hours, run is what 30 minutes?  No problem with recovery.  No problem with speed, stamina, power or anything.  In fact, I feel like I could go for a long time.  I know point blank that my potential as a martial artist is much greater zero carb.  I have improved in this regard quite dramatically, and at least some of that improvement has to do with the calm mental state zc provides. 

Those of you who, for whatever reason, have not been able to eat this way, really can't comment on it very accurately, any more than those who don't eat all raw can comment on what that is like. 

[TylerDurden]

I really think the jury is still out Tyler on this recovery time being slower on zero carb. Maybe for unpaleo things like crossfit or 4 hour MTB races but still...

Well, given that there are no zero-carb athletes, not even genuine serious but amateur ones, I rather think that carbs do improve sporting-performance, plus there's rawists like Angelo corroborating the impact of long-term zc on sport. As for me, activities like skiing in very tough offpiste areas (and even mountain-hiking with a very heavy rucksack, judging from 1 recent experience a year ago) just aren't possible to do really well  while avoiding all carbs - short, sudden performance is reduced, and endurance, especially, is wrecked, whereas eating carbs sorts the problem.  I used to hear claims re adaptation taking 2-3 weeks(from Stefansson et al) and now other claims predicting months or years of adaptation are needed, but this seems unrealistic and somewhat unlikely.
That said, I would have to concede that zero-carb diets are fine for light activity.

[Satya]

Whatever Tyler.  You obviously are the judge and jury for everyone.  Angelo eats potatoes!  He is not a pure raw fooder.  But no point in arguing with you, as you know it all, even when you can't speak from experience. 

[TylerDurden]

You're missing the point. Angelo only went in for cooked potatoes because he couldn't handle the zero-carb approach while doing his riding. In all other respects, he is a raw-fooder(and high-fat and low or very low-carb) and cuts out the cooked starch when he's not in the middle of doing races.

And, lastly, it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that someone not doing 100% raw isn't able to lend his experience to a 100% raw-foodist - I , like many others, have learnt a lot from long-time partial raw-foodists like Mark(thetasigma) etc. who may not have ever been 100% raw, but still know much more than many 100% rawists do about raw food diets.

[Satya]

Angelo never even tried zero carb.    Show us the evidence where Angelo ever tried zero carb.  He always ate fruit and veg.  He ate potatoes to get a drug effect.  Sport is rife with drugs, if you didn't know.

What is really ridiculous is that you won't accept the word from real people doing zero carb.  Unless you are going to try it yourself, stfu about it.  You don't know.  You will never know.  And that's fine.  Eat your fruit.  But don't pretend that you have any iota of knowledge what it feels like to perform at any sport while zero carb.  And don't discount those of us who do! 

You are not the end all of RAVF.  The zc board way more active than this one.  Perhaps if you could get off your high horse, we might have more members and more activity here. 

[van]

  From the outside it is clear to see;   critical  put downs create defensiveness.   You both might want to adopt a more inquisitive nature.  For maybe you Both have something to offer.  I doubt very much than ANY, that's, ANY of us will be eating the exact same way in five or ten years that we are eating today.  So that means we're all learning, and evolving.   A less critical tone will help support the vulnerable nature we are evolving through as we re-learn to eat, if not many times.

[wodgina]

Tyler, it seems like you bash zero carb at every chance you get at the moment and you make some very bold claims based on some very thin anecdotal evidence!

I think your zero carb experience (feelings of close to death, almost requiring hospitalisation) was very  extreme and definitely nothing like what everyone else experiences (and I'm a heavy lurker on the zero carb forum)

[Guittarman03]

No one needs to eat any fruits and vegetables for nutrients.  In fact, fruits and veg increase your needs for some nutrients like vitamin c. 

No one?  What about Tyler?  What about myself?  What about Angelo?  How is it that you scold Tyler ...

  don't pretend that you have any iota of knowledge what it feels like to perform at any sport while zero carb.  And don't discount those of us who do! 

telling him not to discount your experiences, but practically in the same breath assert that no one needs to eat fruit/veg?

Apparently there is something in fruits/veg that I need, or else I lose energy, get steadily reducing desire for meat, and develop cavities.  And just how/why do fruits veg increase your need for vit c?  That doesn't really pass the smell test.

Are you trying to say that if you eat 100% cooked meat that you have no need for vit c? 
How much of your diet is raw, and how much is cooked?  Last I heard from you, it was about 75% raw, with some light cooked in addition.  I would agree that some people can do zc on a majority raw diet, but you can't do it on a complete cooked meat diet w/o developing nutrient deficiencies  ... eg scurvy.

I don't doubt that you are doing well on zc.  My guess is that your body is highly keto adapted, and rate of gluconeogenesis (glucose synthesis from protein) is very high.  From your workout regimine, it looks like you tend towards endurance type activities (jogging, martial arts teaching/training for 2 hrs), as opposed to seriously intense (like the two posted videos).  That's not to slam how you train, I know I can't put a kick over my cranium like you can, but many people doing intense training to full anaerobic capacity (repeated nearing or achieving muscle failure) will be benefitted by consuming carbs to replace lost glycogen. 

I can speak from experience, I have tried both near zc (less than 30g a day for months) and carb loading.  While I did just fine on very low carb, my strength gains tended to be slower.  If I was doing something like tennis, with some jogging and minor weightlifting, I think I would adapt well, and get better at the game, b/c much like martial arts, so much is in technique, precision, and timing. 

But if I'm going for raw gains in muscle strength and mass, I'll avoid jogging and endurance sports, and take some carbs b/c of the anabolic nature of insulin.


ps - I am speaking only about achieving effects in the body via targeted exercise and diet.  I'm not too concerned (in this thread) about the 'paleoness' of the types of exercises we are discussing.

[TylerDurden]

Tyler, it seems like you bash zero carb at every chance you get at the moment and you make some very bold claims based on some very thin anecdotal evidence!

I think your zero carb experience (feelings of close to death, almost requiring hospitalisation) was very  extreme and definitely nothing like what everyone else experiences (and I'm a heavy lurker on the zero carb forum)

My experience was the same as many others who've failed on zero-carb. People can tolerate zero-carb, some for days, others for weeks, maybe months and then be forced to give up or face hospitalisation, while still others can do zc for ages(or for their entire lives?).

And given what I've heard re the extreme behaviour of the zc forum, re deleting journals of anyone who mentions negative experiences while on zc etc, (ironically mentioned by lex among others), I rather doubt it's all as positive as you claim.

As regards jumping on zero-carb, I don't normally criticise zero-carb much, I guess, (what with people like Craig previously being rather open-minded re the various different dietary approaches) re but recently I was rather appalled by a previous rather vitriolic, heavily biased  stream of zero-carb propaganda(re the animal medicine thread etc.), with frequent nonsense promotion of cooked animal fats and the like, or deliberate b**l(eg:- the notion that plants weren't ever consumed during the palaeolithic except in tiny trace amounts or that herbal medicine was never practised in the palaeolithic era), so, since that created a rather bad impression on me, I've felt the need to counter the more outrageous statements since then.

*I'm not criticising you, though. I get the impression there is substantially less religious-based dietary zeal in your zc-related posts than in many other people like Charles on the various different forums.


[/quote]

[TylerDurden]

Angelo never even tried zero carb.    Show us the evidence where Angelo ever tried zero carb.  He always ate fruit and veg.  He ate potatoes to get a drug effect.  Sport is rife with drugs, if you didn't know.

There's actually more evidence of a drug-like effect in cooked-foods in general, including cooked meats, than there is for eating carbs. As regards Angelo, he himself said that zero-carb didn't work for him for sport purposes,which was why he went in for carbs during sport, and, otherwise, goes in for raw high-fat VLC.

*Oh, I see, you were not talking about addiction to carbs but equating eating raw or cooked carbs with taking performance-enhancing drugs like steroids. That is utterly ridiculous! They are in quite a different category.

Re zc:- It seems pretty obvious that there are advantages and drawbacks to doing zc, given the current scientific data and anecdotal reports. I don't deny that some can do alright on zc, given certain conditions, I just don't believe that one size fits all as others do badly on it, and while zc may be an Arctic version of the Palaeo diet, it clearly isn't the only version of a palaeo diet.
 

The zc board way more active than this one.  Perhaps if you could get off your high horse, we might have more members and more activity here. 

This forum is about finding the truth about diet, not about telling people what they find convenient to hear. Sure, it would greatly increase forum membership, if we, like the zc forum,  said a load of rubbish about cooked grainfed meat being fine for health, but it wouldn't help members regain health.

[William]

This forum is about finding the truth about diet, not about telling people what they find convenient to hear.

Unless it conflicts with a frequent poster's prejudice.

[TylerDurden]

Unless it conflicts with a frequent poster's prejudice.

Look, William, I have no problem with your promoting the consumption of tallow per se(also used for making  soap and candles(LOL!)) on other non-raw forums(or even the hot topics) section of this forum. However, this is a RVAF forum, not a forum for cooked-food diets, so, inevitably, only RVAF-related discussions/promotions should be involved in the main forums, given the subject-matter. I mean, we could spend all our time discussing knitting or the weather or tallow instead of talking about RVAF diets, but this board was  primarily meant for RVAF diets, not anything else per its mission-statement etc..To put it in another way, would you reasonably expect people to spend most of their time on other main forums promoting meat on a  vegetarian board or promoting paedophilia on a church of england-oriented forum(lol)? Of course not.


We do, however, have a hot topics forum (and even off-topic forum for non-diet-related issues) where all sorts of other subjects can be freely discussed whether in the form of creationism or the benefits of cooked foods or of smoking  or whatever it is you want. That's the whole point of that sub-forum, after all.

* Which reminds me, there's still too many posts going to the wrong(usually general discussions) forum. Last I checked, there was a recent  primal diet-based one which should have gone into the primal diet subforum etc.

[William]

It looks to be a raw paleo forum, powdered dried raw meat fits.
It is a popular assumption that paleolithic hunters were so stupid that they starved between hunts or during temperate zone winter, and that is assuming that they had less sense than a wolf. I think that they knew to assure a winter's supply of food, and pemmican fits that requirement.

It is about health, not dogma.

[TylerDurden]

It looks to be a raw paleo forum, powdered dried raw meat fits.
It is a popular assumption that paleolithic hunters were so stupid that they starved between hunts or during temperate zone winter, and that is assuming that they had less sense than a wolf. I think that they knew to assure a winter's supply of food, and pemmican fits that requirement.

It is about health, not dogma.

First of all, pemmican involves a sizeable chunk of cooked, rendered fat it is not all-raw(and to preserve it for long enough during winter, pretty high cooking temperatures are needed). Secondly, before the advent of cooking(cooking was only widely practised in the last 10% of the palaeolithic, anyway), there was no pemmican as no cooking existed then. I'll grant you that some form of beef jerky(dried meat) may have existed in pre-cooking times but that's about all.