Lovely photo of RAFers

[TylerDurden]

I presume this is a photo of the Nenet tribe in Siberia:-

http://englishrussia.com/?tag=raw-meat

Note the healthy skin-tone of the child eating raw meat facing the camera.

[raw]

very nice indeed! just wondering , that if we can visit there sometimes to enjoy that with them!!

[RawZi]

Note the healthy skin-tone of the child eating raw meat facing the camera.

    I remember being about that child's age, being served basically a modified cooked paleo diet and wishing for a little SAD.

    Where do you recommend reading about the Nenet?  I prefer the recommendation of a raw paleo eater, than just Googling.

[Michael]

I must say, I'm sure it's very healthy but, personally, I just find that photo a little disturbing. 

I suppose that's indicative of the fact that I'd rather not be eating animals.  Very convenient to have my packaged, butchered, blood-less cuts delivered to my door by a friendly courier.  A little different having to face up to the reality of killing and eating a wild animal as in the photo!  It  looks rather savage for modern, civilised tastes. 

Don't misinterpret my feelings.  I'm certainly not denouncing it or suddenly going to convert to vegetarianism!    Perhaps it's just a little overt for me and it may well be that the perspective created by the cameraman is not entirely accurate of an account which may have been a little more respectful to the spirit of the animal and a little less like a gorge-fest.

[cherimoya_kid]

This reminds of that movie The Snow Walkers, which I finally saw 2 days ago.  There's a great scene where the two main characters take down a caribou and eat pieces of it raw as they cut it up for storage.

[TylerDurden]

    Where do you recommend reading about the Nenet?  I prefer the recommendation of a raw paleo eater, than just Googling.

All I know of the Nenet came from this article, I'm afraid:-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/05/13/ST2008051302252.html

[TylerDurden]

I must say, I'm sure it's very healthy but, personally, I just find that photo a little disturbing. 

I suppose that's indicative of the fact that I'd rather not be eating animals.  Very convenient to have my packaged, butchered, blood-less cuts delivered to my door by a friendly courier.  A little different having to face up to the reality of killing and eating a wild animal as in the photo!  It  looks rather savage for modern, civilised tastes. 

Don't misinterpret my feelings.  I'm certainly not denouncing it or suddenly going to convert to vegetarianism!    Perhaps it's just a little overt for me and it may well be that the perspective created by the cameraman is not entirely accurate of an account which may have been a little more respectful to the spirit of the animal and a little less like a gorge-fest.

This kind of gorge-fest is routine and was always practised. You've got to remember that knives alone can't make 100% use of all the animals' flesh. For example, in my own case, while I normally use a knife for my other specially cut raw meats, I need to devour most of my bloody wild hare-carcass by basically stuffing it into my mouth and constantly tearing little chunks of raw flesh off it that I can't get at with a knife.

I have nothing wrong with savagery. I mean, in some ways,  our modern civilisation is built on terribly immoral acts which are disguised as kindness, and are sanitised by allowing somebody else to do all the "savagery". For example, there's the routine of breeding dogs with multiple health-defects for dog-shows by (seemingly doting) owners, the routine castration/spaying of domesticated animals to prevent them from breeding too much etc.(why not just ban ownership of pets to a select few such as farmers and hunters and use contraception like humans do, there must be a version of the Pill for dogs). In short, a bit of open savagery might help us respect animals more, not less as we would be more aware of them, and might even benefit us. The perfect example was an interview of a grassfed British-born Argentinian farmer, during the BSE crisis, who pointed out that the reason his industry was free of BSE was not only the fact he fed his cattle on 100% grass/herbs diets, but also the fact that his herds routinely had 50% bulls and 50% cows. While he said this was not perhaps as immediately profitable from the perspective of Western farmers who routinely keep perhaps 1 bull for  a thousand cows or suchlike, he said that the benefits he got from that meant that the rate of inbreeding was much lower and therefore the chance of infection from disease was far lower too, due to better immune-systems in the animals. So, the natural approach seems to time and again, not only benefit the animals but us as well, indirectly.

[Michael]

This kind of gorge-fest is routine and was always practised. You've got to remember that knives alone can't make 100% use of all the animals' flesh. For example, in my own case, while I normally use a knife for my other specially cut raw meats, I need to devour most of my bloody wild hare-carcass by basically stuffing it into my mouth and constantly tearing little chunks of raw flesh off it that I can't get at with a knife.

I'm obviously just not primal enough!   

I have nothing wrong with savagery. I mean, in some ways,  our modern civilisation is built on terribly immoral acts which are disguised as kindness, and are sanitised by allowing somebody else to do all the "savagery". For example, there's the routine of breeding dogs with multiple health-defects for dog-shows by (seemingly doting) owners, the routine castration/spaying of domesticated animals to prevent them from breeding too much etc.(why not just ban ownership of pets to a select few such as farmers and hunters and use contraception like humans do, there must be a version of the Pill for dogs). In short, a bit of open savagery might help us respect animals more, not less as we would be more aware of them, and might even benefit us.

Some good points there Tyler.  I certainly don't disagree in that most savagery tends to be hidden from view in western civilisation and that this is not necessarily a good thing in some respects.  In my view, there is great disrespect for animals and humans which is a result of many modern phenomena including this hidden savagery.  It's my understanding that HG had far greater respect for all life such as highlighted in that recently posted persistence hunting documentary video.  I think I was disconcerted by the original photo in this thread as there appeared to be no respect for the animal's life or death but, as I said, this was probably due to the momentary nature of the cameraman's representation.

[raw]

This kind of gorge-fest is routine and was always practised. You've got to remember that knives alone can't make 100% use of all the animals' flesh. For example, in my own case, while I normally use a knife for my other specially cut raw meats, I need to devour most of my bloody wild hare-carcass by basically stuffing it into my mouth and constantly tearing little chunks of raw flesh off it that I can't get at with a knife.

I have nothing wrong with savagery. I mean, in some ways,  our modern civilisation is built on terribly immoral acts which are disguised as kindness, and are sanitised by allowing somebody else to do all the "savagery". For example, there's the routine of breeding dogs with multiple health-defects for dog-shows by (seemingly doting) owners, the routine castration/spaying of domesticated animals to prevent them from breeding too much etc.(why not just ban ownership of pets to a select few such as farmers and hunters and use contraception like humans do, there must be a version of the Pill for dogs). In short, a bit of open savagery might help us respect animals more, not less as we would be more aware of them, and might even benefit us. The perfect example was an interview of a grassfed British-born Argentinian farmer, during the BSE crisis, who pointed out that the reason his industry was free of BSE was not only the fact he fed his cattle on 100% grass/herbs diets, but also the fact that his herds routinely had 50% bulls and 50% cows. While he said this was not perhaps as immediately profitable from the perspective of Western farmers who routinely keep perhaps 1 bull for  a thousand cows or suchlike, he said that the benefits he got from that meant that the rate of inbreeding was much lower and therefore the chance of infection from disease was far lower too, due to better immune-systems in the animals. So, the natural approach seems to time and again, not only benefit the animals but us as well, indirectly.

beautiful post. easy life is full of non sense and nature's calling us to go back to that simplicity (being uncivilized where those people more close to nature and most close to god) .

[Hannibal]

There are some more photos on this site - http://englishrussia.com/?p=2409#more-2409
Some other articles about Nenets -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/tribe/tribes/nenets/index.shtml
http://www.everyculture.com/Russia-Eurasia-China/Nenets-Orientation.html

and books -

Florian Stammler (2005)
'Reindeer Nomads Meet the Market: Culture, Property and Globalisation at the End of the Land.' Muenster: Litverlag ISBN 3-8258-8046-x

Piers Vitebsky (2005)
'Monograph on Siberian herders’ life with Animals and Spirits'. Reindeer People. Living with Animals and Spirits in Siberia. London: Harper Collins.

Florian Stammler and Hugh Beach (eds) (2006)
'People and Reindeer on the Move.' Special Issue of the journal Nomadic Peoples, No. 10,2 2006. Oxford: Berghahn.

[PaleoPhil]

I'm obviously just not primal enough!  

Some good points there Tyler.  I certainly don't disagree in that most savagery tends to be hidden from view in western civilisation and that this is not necessarily a good thing in some respects.  In my view, there is great disrespect for animals and humans which is a result of many modern phenomena including this hidden savagery.  It's my understanding that HG had far greater respect for all life such as highlighted in that recently posted persistence hunting documentary video.  ....

Exactly. The children of HG peoples like the Nenets, Inuit are taught respect for all living things and even inanimate natural things like mountains and rocks as soon as they can understand such matters. I think it is modern man's separation from nature that makes it seem horrible and savage to him. Somehow we need to rekindle the respect we humans once had that made the hunt and meats and blood sacred rather than profane, while at the same time avoiding over-hunting and over-fishing species to extinction.

I watched a video of a whole tribe of Inuits working together to butcher a whale and then boiling and eating some of it. One man had a great smile on his face and raised his arms to the sky after eating, giving thanks for the wonderful food from the Creator. He then faced the camera and explained to the white viewers like me that the Inuits got sick on the White man's food and that his tribe were doing better now that they were eating more Creator-made foods like whale again.

[Michael]

Exactly. The children of HG peoples like the Nenets, Inuit are taught respect for all living things and even inanimate natural things like mountains and rocks as soon as they can understand such matters. I think it is modern man's separation from nature that makes it seem horrible and savage to him. Somehow we need to rekindle the respect we humans once had that made the hunt and meats and blood sacred rather than profane, while at the same time avoiding over-hunting and over-fishing species to extinction.

I watched a video of a whole tribe of Inuits working together to butcher a whale and then boiling and eating some of it. One man had a great smile on his face and raised his arms to the sky after eating, giving thanks for the wonderful food from the Creator. He then faced the camera and explained to the white viewers like me that the Inuits got sick on the White man's food and that his tribe were doing better now that they were eating more Creator-made foods like whale again.

Thanks for validating and expressing my feelings on this issue PaleoPhil.  I couldn't have put it better myself!  The question, I suppose, is how are we going to rekindle this respect?  Modern life, structure, education largely dismisses such wisdom entirely and, dare I say, even perpetuates the exact opposite attitudes.  I may be shot down for stating this but I sometimes feel in a minority even on this forum in that others seem to reverberate an excitement at the prospect of hunting and killing.  To me, it's a necessary measure of survival and one which needs to be handled with utmost respect for the life and spirit of the sacrificed animal.

[PaleoPhil]

... I may be shot down for stating this but I sometimes feel in a minority even on this forum in that others seem to reverberate an excitement at the prospect of hunting and killing.  To me, it's a necessary measure of survival and one which needs to be handled with utmost respect for the life and spirit of the sacrificed animal.

I may be a minority of one on this, but I don't see excitement at the prospect of hunting and respect for animals as incompatible. Traditional peoples do not appear to see it this way. They see both hunting and animals as sacred and exciting. This can partly be explained by the fact that they apparently believe that when you eat something it lives on in you--that you thus give it eternal life--that to continue the wheel of life in this way is a sacred act, and that if you eat a certain species of animal long enough it can become your relative, as I believe the Lakota say the buffalo are their relatives.

Therefore a far more horrendous act would be to let an animal corpse rot uneaten by any animal than to hunt, kill and eat an animal. I think this may be partly why the Plains Indians were so horrified when white men slaughtered millions of buffalo and left the carcasses to rot. To them, I think this was a form of spiritual genocide of their relatives, as well as certain starvation for the Indians.

Wolves and buffalo do a sort of dance of life and death. The Indians saw this, I think, and saw their hunting of buffalo as a dance too, and re-enacted the dance at the campfire at the end of the day. They celebrated both the life and the death of the animals they hunted.

The Bushmen hunters "become" the animal they are hunting, and caress and thank it after they kill it. They are excited by the hunt, but they are also reverent of it.

I am not well-schooled yet in the traditional ways of the indigenous/Leaver peoples, so if I got any of this wrong, I apologize. What modern society needs more than anything is people who know the old ways to teach the moderners how to think and live again like human beings instead of robots--the way we were designed to live. We must preserve the last remaining HG societies and I think we should have at least one teacher of traditional knowledge and wisdom at every school, with the students continuously learning and reinforcing traditional knowledge at every level until it once again becomes part of the fabric of society. The work has already started in New Zealand and among the Lakota and it should be spread across the globe.

It should not be blind Paleo-re-enactment with no purpose. It should be a remembering of what was forgotten in the Great Forgetting. It should be a lesson about who we are, how we came to be this way, and how to live as human beings. It should be based on science and experience rather than superstition (and superstitions can take modern forms, like anti-fat and anti-germ hysteria). Old ideas proven over thousands of years should no longer be thrown away for the latest "new and improved" ideas. The new ideas and new foods should have to go through rigorous tests before we replace the old with the new, so we don't make the same mistakes and have another Great Forgetting. For example, we should not assume that new foods or food ingredients are just as good or better than old foods without extraordinary evidence to support the claim. This same concept can be applied to many things--personal care items, home building materials, household cleaners, how to teach and learn, how to walk, even how to go to the bathroom. We have much relearning to do, all of us.