811 Raw Foodist with doubts...

[whitebox84]

Hi guys,

I've been on 811 low-fat-high-carb raw vegan for a month and dropped the ball today because the craving to eat meat (or whatever the underlying reason for the craving was...perhaps fat or higher levels of protein) was too strong.

I'm having doubts. Perhaps feeling good came from not eating grains, perhaps it was not eating gluten in specific. Perhaps it was not eating cooked foods as well.

Anyway, I want these dark circles to go away, to regain some strength (I've become really skinny this past month), and get to health.

One question I have is on eating raw meat. Is the idea for the most part that 'raw' paleo is the best way to go? And, also, I just got out of the hospital a few days ago from the worst case of food poisoning I have ever experienced (I idiotically ate some unrefigerated spinach) and I'm worried about eating raw meat. The internet is covered with warnings about not eating raw meat. If I do eat it, what's the way to go to not get food poisoned? From a butcher or can I still get it from a decent supermarket?

Help me get straight on this guys.

Appreciate it,
Amir

P.S. is soymilk and soy protein powder okay?

[William]

One question I have is on eating raw meat. Is the idea for the most part that 'raw' paleo is the best way to go?

We have found that it is the only way to go for healing from serious ailments.



 

The internet is covered with warnings about not eating raw meat. If I do eat it, what's the way to go to not get food poisoned? From a butcher or can I still get it from a decent supermarket?

Those warnings are from trolls. There are no records of anyone ever getting food poisoning by eating raw meat from a butcher or supermarket.

P.S. is soymilk and soy protein powder okay?

NO! I believe that soy products are invented by Satan. They are very high in xeno-estrogens.

In UAE there may be a traditional form of dried meat; if so, this would be the best way of trying this diet. Keep in mind that one must replace carbohydrates with animal fat or suffer overwhelming cravings.

[RawZi]

    Welcome Amir!

    Soy is not paleo, it is only digestible if very highly cooked, and people with strong gluten intolerances are usually also very intolerant to soy.  If you have to eat seed protein may I suggest home sprouted lentil, soaked hazelnuts, soaked chia or even sprouted wheat.  That's even easier than soy, even if fermented.  Powdered things aren't totally paleo either.  I'm not fully paeo, as I use raw dairy, but I do not powder my food.

    When I started eating RAF I did have to empty my bowels a lot.  Maybe some people would jump and say they were poisoned going through this, but I was grateful and understood this was the first step in my healing.  My energy, skin and joints were so much better already than previous too, so I could already tell it was working.

    Fear of raw meat is one of the biggest obstacles.  Once I started eating raw fat, then raw meat, the fear subsided.

    I would get it from a butcher over a supermarket anytime.  That being said, I have gotten from a supermarket and it did not make me sick.

    Figure out what is best for you, and then do it.  Trust in your intuition making that choice.  That's what works for me, just keep learning.

Take care,
    RawZi

[DeadRamones]

Hi guys,

I've been on 811 low-fat-high-carb raw vegan for a month and dropped the ball today because the craving to eat meat (or whatever the underlying reason for the craving was...perhaps fat or higher levels of protein) was too strong.

Well, your body knows what it wants/needs. The 811 fanatics would probably say,"you weren't doing it right."

Anyway, I want these dark circles to go away, to regain some strength (I've become really skinny this past month), and get to health.

Meat should definitely help.

One question I have is on eating raw meat. Is the idea for the most part that 'raw' paleo is the best way to go?

Most members found through trial & error that this was the only way they recovered from their previous diets

If I do eat it, what's the way to go to not get food poisoned? From a butcher or can I still get it from a decent supermarket?

Well like you have already experience. You can get sick from any kind of food. Most popular forum sites are full of idiots & robots that don't question or challenge anything they were ever told or learned to do their own research. I would suggest reading into the Hygiene hypothesis to help you make a better conscious decision.

P.S. is soymilk and soy protein powder okay?

Soy is crap IMO. It's almost always GMO if not organic & has to be highly process if you want to eat it. I don't think it's even possible to eat in it's raw state. Has to be fermented at minimum.

[Ioanna]

soy milk, soy protein, soy anything will cause me to regurgitate within about 5-10 minutes of its consumption... I don't eat anything with soy!

I tried 811 when I was raw vegan... during that time I was so unsatisfied, my workouts sucked, and I only lasted 3 days because I was craving for fat!  The fourth day I consumed a ton of fat, felt satisfied, settled, and had an awesome workout.  That was me, though, ... to each his own.

I've experienced wonderful things eating this way. I try to get all my meat from a local farm, though sometimes it comes from the market.

[PaleoPhil]

Welcome!

I've been on 811 low-fat-high-carb raw vegan for a month and dropped the ball today because the craving to eat meat (or whatever the underlying reason for the craving was...perhaps fat or higher levels of protein) was too strong.

Yes, and it could also be other nutrients like B12 and folate (and iron for women) that tend to have low bioavailability in raw vegan diets.

Anyway, I want these dark circles to go away, to regain some strength (I've become really skinny this past month), and get to health.

Dark circles under the eyes and abnormal thinness or obesity (in the wild there is far less variation in body weight within species) are fairly common symptoms in people with gluten intolerance and vegetarians. Some people end up with a bad combination of thin limbs and fat "beer belly"/love handles/front of the neck, as I did. Incidentally, from what I can tell, the buttocks and thighs appear to be healthy adipose depot sites in both humans and some other animals (the neck/back fat pad or hump is another healthy site for other animals) [see http://www.nowpublic.com/health/butt-fat-can-be-good-your-health].

Here's the story of one vegetarian who had dark circles under her eyes (she went cooked Paleo, but raw Paleo appears to help at least some people like me even better):

Vegetarian Isn’t Better: Ann’s Story
From The Paleo Diet, by Loren Cordain, PhD, p. 72  

Ann Woods adopted “a near-vegetarian diet that emphasized grains, potatoes, lots of starch, and very little fat or meat” and took up jogging. She lost weight and her blood pressure and cholesterol levels were low, but after seven years “she noticed that her energy began to wane. She was continuously tired and wanted nothing more than to sleep after long runs. Ann recovered from one running-related injury only to find herself injured again within weeks. Dark circles formed underneath her eyes, and she caught colds more frequently than ever. She finally discovered that she had iron-deficiency anemia caused by her ‘healthful’ staples of oatmeal, brown rice, beans, pasta, and low-fat yogurt.”

“Ann discovered the Paleo dietary principles in The Complete Book of Alternative Nutrition, which featured [Dr. Cordain’s] research. It made a lot of sense to her, and she gave it a try. She replaced her former vegetarian staples with lean [Note: I find I do better on a fat-rich diet after trying a fairly lean Paleo diet] meat, chicken, and seafood at almost every meal. Fruits and veggies were no problem—she had eaten a lot of these before her switch. Within a week, Ann noticed that her energy level was stable throughout the day. She no longer had late afternoon slumps. Her stamina increased, and she was less tired after her runs. After three months on the diet she dropped 5 additional pounds to her present weight of 106, her stomach was now totally flat and her muscle tone and strength were better than ever. On top of this, her iron-deficiency anemia disappeared, and the dark circles underneath her eyes vanished.”

(An aside: for anyone who read my post on giant pandas, notice any similarities in symptoms between bamboo-eating carnivorous giant pandas and Ann the vegetarian Homo sapiens sapiens?)

One question I have is on eating raw meat. Is the idea for the most part that 'raw' paleo is the best way to go? And, also, I just got out of the hospital a few days ago from the worst case of food poisoning I have ever experienced (I idiotically ate some unrefigerated spinach) and I'm worried about eating raw meat. The internet is covered with warnings about not eating raw meat. If I do eat it, what's the way to go to not get food poisoned? From a butcher or can I still get it from a decent supermarket?

Some here eat lots of raw meat, others eat more raw plants.

Having gotten a bad case of food poisoning from raw spinach (raw greens are the most common source of it, BTW, in part because they are so commonly eaten), are you afraid to eat raw plants? If not, then why would you be afraid to eat raw meat?

P.S. is soymilk and soy protein powder okay?

After having tried a soy-heavy diet at a certified nutritionist's recommendation, I think William may be right about it being invented by Satan.

[popeye]

Hi guys,

I've been on 811 low-fat-high-carb raw vegan for a month and dropped the ball today because the craving to eat meat (or whatever the underlying reason for the craving was...perhaps fat or higher levels of protein) was too strong.

I'm having doubts. Perhaps feeling good came from not eating grains, perhaps it was not eating gluten in specific. Perhaps it was not eating cooked foods as well.

Anyway, I want these dark circles to go away, to regain some strength (I've become really skinny this past month), and get to health.

One question I have is on eating raw meat. Is the idea for the most part that 'raw' paleo is the best way to go? And, also, I just got out of the hospital a few days ago from the worst case of food poisoning I have ever experienced (I idiotically ate some unrefigerated spinach) and I'm worried about eating raw meat. The internet is covered with warnings about not eating raw meat. If I do eat it, what's the way to go to not get food poisoned? From a butcher or can I still get it from a decent supermarket?

Help me get straight on this guys.

Appreciate it,
Amir

P.S. is soymilk and soy protein powder okay?

Personal experience here.  I was big time into the 80/10/10 diet after reading Doug Graham's book a few years ago, and was sure it was the next logical step for me to take in terms of health  (I had already been a near-vegetarian for the previous few years).  I have to admit that there is a certain logic to natural hygiene and for a while I was convinced that we were meant to live on mostly fruit as a species.  Of course, I have very different opinions now, but there you go.  To cut a long story short my experience has been that low fat, fruit-based diets are extremely dangerous and should be avoided at all cost.  I felt pretty good for a while and often had enough energy to run wild, but it was a manic sort of energy, and I eventually crashed hard and gave myself all kids of health problems.  I really don't want you or anyone else to make the same mistake I did.  If you notice a fruitarian or any other sort of diet is not sustainable, makes no sense to you, or is advocated by zealots who won't listen to alternative points of view, run in the other direction as fast as you can.  I think you are very smart to have doubts about the diet.  Keep an open mind about these things.

As an alternative to the ideas presented in the 80/10/10 book that humans are natural frugivores, I invite you to read the following by Dr. Barry Groves, which compares our physiology and digestive tract to herbivores and carnivores.  I think you will find it interesting:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/should-all-animals-eat-a-high-fat-low-carb-diet.html

[cherimoya_kid]

I wish Doug Graham would shut the frick up.

[whitebox84]

Thanks guys! This is all good stuff and I'm digging the vibe. I'm starting a month long experiment with raw paleo >today<.

One question to start me off -- when I bring some raw meat home, what are some basic pointers on sanitation? Should I simply clean the meat in water just like cleaning fruit...nothing special? Scrub with the normal cleaning substances afterwards, etc, to make sure everything is hygienic. Such things as salmonella still exist right?

And for eating animal fat, I take it I can just get this from eating all of the meat a butcher provides...I don't have to get it separately, right?

I'll study the rest...these questions were just to get me going.

Thanks,
Amir

[pc701]

Um...I would suggest maybe do the primal diet first instead of full on raw paleo, there has defenatiley been some people being healing through raw/primal diet and some people like the massai and certain others that thrive on it. I believe that for some people going on raw paleo and eliminating dairy products can cause more harm than good.

[pc701]

I know I personally(even though i have been on primal diet shortly/about 2 weeks) would greatly dread the idea of eating only/mosttly raw meat and fat.Meat for breakfast,luch and dinner is just not for me.

[TylerDurden]

Um...I would suggest maybe do the primal diet first instead of full on raw paleo, there has defenatiley been some people being healing through raw/primal diet and some people like the massai and certain others that thrive on it. I believe that for some people going on raw paleo and eliminating dairy products can cause more harm than good.

The vast majority here and on other forums would disagree. Food-intolerances towards raw dairy are the number 1 harmful side-effect on a generalised raw animal and raw vegetable diet.

[TylerDurden]

As an alternative to the ideas presented in the 80/10/10 book that humans are natural frugivores, I invite you to read the following by Dr. Barry Groves, which compares our physiology and digestive tract to herbivores and carnivores.  I think you will find it interesting:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/should-all-animals-eat-a-high-fat-low-carb-diet.html

Barry Groves is a biased fool and who's been completely discredited on the other forum(rawpaleodiet yahoo group) - if you look at all the hard data online, you'll see that it is EXTREMELY difficult to suggest that we are either 100% carnivores or 100% herbivores- the facts show that we are, actually, omnivores in terms of digestive system/teeth etc etc. .

Incidentally, Barry Groves tried desperately to claim, on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group, that all one had to do re health was to eat meat, and that cooking was perfectly fine. Naturally, 1 of the other rawist members called him up on this(not me) and challenged him to try to refute the large amounts of scientific data I'd provided to show that cooked animal food was, indeed, harmful, and the guy was such a coward that he used a pathetic excuse to leave the forum, right then so as to avoid being humiliated in that debate.

[RawZi]

Anyway, I want these dark circles to go away, to regain some strength (I've become really skinny this past month), and get to health.

    Almost anything with carbs including raw unfermented grass grazed milk can give me some circles.  I avoid those things and it disappears. 

Incidentally, Barry Groves tried desperately to claim, on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group, that all one had to do re health was to eat meat, and that cooking was perfectly fine. Naturally, 1 of the other rawist members called him up on this(not me) and challenged him to try to refute the large amounts of scientific data I'd provided to show that cooked animal food was, indeed, harmful, and the guy was such a coward that he used a pathetic excuse to leave the forum, right then so as to avoid being humiliated in that debate.

    Sounds familiar.  So many people leave from forums lying about why; when they would have felt humiliated in debates because they were trying to be devisive etc.  Not all 811'ers are like this, but invariably a number of the 811'ers do this too.  It makes things difficult in forums where when someone leaves their posts disappear and when they come back and forth the posts don't reappear.  One thing is that it makes it that whoever responds to the post looks like they're responding to someone else and something else.  Of course them being the only true vegans, that's another story.  Then of course most of those same then ... it's just sick mania.  I'm so glad I'm back with sane people.  Thank you!

[popeye]

Barry Groves is a biased fool and who's been completely discredited on the other forum(rawpaleodiet yahoo group) - if you look at all the hard data online, you'll see that it is EXTREMELY difficult to suggest that we are either 100% carnivores or 100% herbivores- the facts show that we are, actually, omnivores in terms of digestive system/teeth etc etc. .

Incidentally, Barry Groves tried desperately to claim, on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group, that all one had to do re health was to eat meat, and that cooking was perfectly fine. Naturally, 1 of the other rawist members called him up on this(not me) and challenged him to try to refute the large amounts of scientific data I'd provided to show that cooked animal food was, indeed, harmful, and the guy was such a coward that he used a pathetic excuse to leave the forum, right then so as to avoid being humiliated in that debate.

Yeah, I'm not saying everything that guy says is right, but I definitely thought that particular page was interesting and at least indicated that humans were not designed to eat a herbivorous diet (although I agree we are not obligate carnivores and are really omnivores who lean towards eating a lot of meat).  I actually have read Barry Groves' latest book, and in it he advises to cook food as little as possible, and he pointed out that our ancestors ate most of their meat raw.  I suppose he just thinks that while raw is the best way to go, cooking meat isn't such a heinous sin.  I dunno.

[goodsamaritan]

Hi guys,

I've been on 811 low-fat-high-carb raw vegan for a month and dropped the ball today because the craving to eat meat (or whatever the underlying reason for the craving was...perhaps fat or higher levels of protein) was too strong.

I'm having doubts. Perhaps feeling good came from not eating grains, perhaps it was not eating gluten in specific. Perhaps it was not eating cooked foods as well.

Anyway, I want these dark circles to go away, to regain some strength (I've become really skinny this past month), and get to health.

One question I have is on eating raw meat. Is the idea for the most part that 'raw' paleo is the best way to go? And, also, I just got out of the hospital a few days ago from the worst case of food poisoning I have ever experienced (I idiotically ate some unrefigerated spinach) and I'm worried about eating raw meat. The internet is covered with warnings about not eating raw meat. If I do eat it, what's the way to go to not get food poisoned? From a butcher or can I still get it from a decent supermarket?

Help me get straight on this guys.

Appreciate it,
Amir

P.S. is soymilk and soy protein powder okay?

Start eating raw meat that is culturally acceptable.  I started on raw organic egg yolks and raw tuna sashimi.  (I did Wai Diet, they have an extensive list of sea food). 

Sashimi is sooo culturally acceptable in fishing towns and cities with Japanese restaurants.  Sashimi is considered SAFE food.

[whitebox84]

As a curiosity, aside from no longer being a vegan anymore, what happens to the health of someone who eats the 811 diet but adds a piece of meat into their diet every day or other day or a few times a week. Too little addition to have an effect? Anything significant happen?

[livingthelife]

First I tried switching to lots of raw meat right away and suffered tremendous indigestion, so gradual acclimation seems to be better. TylerDurden has a good guide here:

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/sticky-advice-for-newbies-wishing-to-slowly-ease-into-a-raw-animal-food-diet/

(don't know how to make that a named link or tinyurl, sorry)

I don't think anything will "happen" at the slow pace you describe other than a mental acceptance of this practice and perhaps feeling less hunger

Gradually many people come to eat raw meat daily and nearly all (? correct me if I'm wrong here) have best results by including raw fat. That was hardest for me, being a woman who was indoctrinated to eat no fat ever never ever.

Personally, I had a very hard time getting started because I used an extreme approach (see my early journal), so as goodsamaritan said, start with appealing and culturally acceptable foods, not bison spleen like I did

[TylerDurden]

As a curiosity, aside from no longer being a vegan anymore, what happens to the health of someone who eats the 811 diet but adds a piece of meat into their diet every day or other day or a few times a week. Too little addition to have an effect? Anything significant happen?

That would probably avoid the possibility of nutritional deficiencies. And, AFAIK, Instinctos(who usually eat c.10% raw animal food) seem to be do OK. However, for actual rebuilding of one's health, one really needs to up the raw-meat-intake quite a lot.

[whitebox84]

I really appreciate your input, Tyler.

[TylerDurden]

Yeah, I'm not saying everything that guy says is right, but I definitely thought that particular page was interesting and at least indicated that humans were not designed to eat a herbivorous diet (although I agree we are not obligate carnivores and are really omnivores who lean towards eating a lot of meat).  I actually have read Barry Groves' latest book, and in it he advises to cook food as little as possible, and he pointed out that our ancestors ate most of their meat raw.  I suppose he just thinks that while raw is the best way to go, cooking meat isn't such a heinous sin.  I dunno.

All the cooked-diet gurus state routinely that one shouldn't overcook the meats but that isn't really the same as promoting raw. They only state that because there are ever more studies appearing which show well-cooked animal foods to be particularly unhealthy, so they add a caveat to cover themselves.

What I find annoying re Groves is that he never once takes a critical look at his own diet. I mean, he recommends dairy simply because it's an animal food, despite people often having issues with it, etc.

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, and some vegans/vegetarians and mostly-plant dieters (like SuperInfinity) seem to make the same mistake of lumping dairy in with meats because it comes from animals. It's a very different category of food, but many people can't seem to move beyond the idea of lumping all animal-sourced foods together (even though many vegetarians include animal-source foods like fish, eggs and even milk in their definition of "vegetarian"). It's all rather confusing and seemingly arbitrary. I judge things based on what I do well on, and I get clues from what appears to be biologically appropriate. Most other dietary standards like grouping dairy with meats because they both come from animals seem arbitrary to me.