Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...

[goodsamaritan]

Paleophil, KD,

Any links to the sugar addicts ?

I did Wai Diet for 3 months and I never came across recommendations to eat sugar on Wai Diet (2008 January, Feb and March)

[PaleoPhil]

I thought I had posted at least one sugar quote here, but I see what happened--I posted a sugar quote in another Wai thread, got interrupted at home before I could respond to a response post in the other thread, and then thought this was the thread and continued in this thread. So here is a post with a Wai sugar quote from the other thread:

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/wai-dieters/anyone-here-doing-the-wai-diet/msg70695/#msg70695

Sorry for any confusion.

[goodsamaritan]

I thought I had posted at least one sugar quote here, but I see what happened--I posted a sugar quote in another Wai thread, got interrupted at home before I could respond to a response post in the other thread, and then thought this was the thread and continued in this thread. So here is a post with a Wai sugar quote from the other thread:

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/wai-dieters/anyone-here-doing-the-wai-diet/msg70695/#msg70695

Sorry for any confusion.

That section where Wai completely explained the usefulness of sugar is NOT some sort of penalty that should get them expelled from the raw paleo forum tribe.  His complete explanation was explicit and direct to the point.

As you know I heal people and I'm connected with very knowledgeable healers.  My pro healer friend Vander Gaditano will use table sugar in emergencies for those people who are "resource challenged".

Taken at it's full context of the entire web page http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/twd-sugar.html is just that, an explanation of his opinion about table sugar.  It is not a recommendation to make table sugar a staple.

As I explained, I was on Wai Diet for 3 months and participated in their forums and followed the book and I did not come across sugar junkies during my time 2008 Jan to March.

Loren Howe makes no mistake in saying Wai Diet is a form of Paleo Diet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVn-jmCi4zI

Of course Wai Diet has the quirk of not recommending land animals...  because the researchers arrived at RAW Paleo Diet from a different approach.  Note the importance of RAW in Wai Diet.  

I'm thankful for Craig and Geoff's foresight in including Wai Diet in this forum... it was via Wai Diet I came to a more complete Raw Paleo Diet.

[goodsamaritan]

At one time I suggested adding temporary Raw Veganism to this forum as many of us also tried Raw Veganism... and failed and it was only a logical next step to add raw animal foods in our raw vegan diet to make it complete.

But at that time the other mods felt that most raw vegans were rabid narrow minded Talibans and would only cause havoc.

I figured, we have raw carnivore, how about temporary raw vegans who will eventually add raw meat to their diet?

[KD]

I could care less about the politics of it, although if you asked me honestly if I thought wai being elevated over other diets (even non raw versions) as 'more paleo' reflects poorly on the site I would say yes.

My position is I'm open to something like refined sugar or dairy or bloodletting or any other relatively natural thing if it works for them and there are actually examples of such doing more good then harm. Unfortunately, ancient 'foods' or their derivations employed arbitrarily do not equal health and theres no points to be gained by neglecting just measurable inaccuracies regarding such.

On top of that...one doesn't even have to attack the diets effectiveness as either a healthy diet or transition diet to see that it does include a large portion of processed foods, modern foods, and some allowance to grain foods making it only similar to a 'paleo diet' described here in that it excludes dairy and vegetables(?) and includes some select non ruminant(?) animal products and attempts to eat much of these things raw.

Since this is mainly a paleo forum it makes sense that certain things are praised or excluded but the whole point is there is a double standard to what is considered possible avenues for health considering all RVAF diets are theoretically represented on the site.

When I think of Primal Blueprint folks cooking ruminant meat topped with Crème fraiche and some 'neolithic' vegetables I don't think immediately that what these people are eating is some bastardization of a natural way of eating. I do think this when people are eating trail mix and lean white meat and fruit oil calling this a 'paleo diet'. With something like Wai or fruitarianism I also instantly have that impression that these are concepts created by modern people that are judging things not by real world information. Even if one could prove that all of these things were actually eaten by humans they would still be operating under an  ideology invented by humans excluding likely necessary intrinsic and therapeutic food sources.

People get stung up on details like how many years back a human might have gone from ingesting ounces of milk on occasion to raising animals for dairy or to when they used fire to cook them. I'm still trying to figure out how I can get a mango, jackfruit, or avocado seed down my throat and out my digestive tract, not that I would bother to call these things 'non paleo' or unhealthy.

---

I can't find the original sources of people i knew doing wai as its on a forum where when people leave the forum (go to other diets) their posts disappear. heres some of many in a whole section dedicated to oils and processed sugars on the wai site. I guess the question of how 'paleo' it is could be answered by if someone posted in the welcoming forum here that they were excited about finally being able to eat as much fruit juice, table sugar, and olive oil as they want.

http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2001

http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2678

http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2334

http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2307

[goodsamaritan]

If we are to persecute Wai Diet.

Then we will have to persecute Weston Price because hell they cook their stuff.

Then we will have to persecute Aajonus Vonderplanitz Primal Diet for pushing raw dairy non-stop.

It is good that we are raiding the ranks of wai dieters, primal dieters and weston price dieters.

[KD]

What does this even mean? is there a general unfair percentage of wai dieters on this forum getting ostracized than dairy consumers?

You asked about processed and refined sugars and other modern foods prominence in the diet. If these aren't disqualifiers then the only focus comes down to which diet has dairy in it..and not what diets are actually healthful or how much the rest of the diet represents anything natural whatsoever. Seems glaringly obvious.

If you add up the story, wai diet being raw is no more a 'paleo diet' to a cooked meat dairy slathered diet. This is what people are suggesting. It's true that AV Primal Diet has very little bearing of how one would eat in nature but it has no pretense of that. As for Weston Price it involves cooking and other neolithic foods but it generally stays away from processed foods and is based on study of actual peoples in nature.

[TylerDurden]

Sugar is not consumed in vast quantities like other foods like meats or veg, so it's a condiment not a food, so is only a minor issue. The point is that the Wai Diet is seen by most as consisting primarily of raw seafood and raw fruits. There may be differences, with the main guru also advocating other foods, but those are the 2 mainstays, both raw and both palaeo.

[KD]

how many grams or calories of table sugar is small enough to make it a condiment? 1000 kcal? 300 kcal?



http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2460&p=26611&hilit=+grams+of+sugar+#p26611

---

so it is ...that if the mainstay of a diet is meat (or sorta meat) and veg its fine to not only include but advocate non-paleo foods within a paleo diet. Also we can take away that ANY diet that excludes dairy foods, includes seafoods and fruits in whatever quantities and sort of limits grain foods is a paleo diet regardless of how much of that food is processed, refined, or resembles anything found in nature.

[TylerDurden]

You're missing the point again. The primal diet is way too processed as it has raw veggie-juice and raw dairy and raw veggie juices as  very huge components thereof make it less palaeo than the wai diet.The weston-price diet isn't really raw as such and heartily recommends both dairy and grains. All a matter of degree, and since most people view the Wai Diet as just being mainly raw seafood and raw fruit, it's irrelevant if some others also add some sugar or whatver.

[goodsamaritan]

Those sugar idiots weren't there in the Wai forum when I did wai diet in 2008 Jan to March.

Someone has to knock some sense into them.

[KD]

ok from my perspective the point is you are trying to rationalize the wai diet being a paleo diet when it does not meet your own definitions of being a paleo diet nevermind mine and others. First you said it has to do with what it leaves out, now you are saying if it is largely paleo foods it can contain neolithic foods which I assume would also include dairy in small quantities. Both you and GS either here or in your journals have already suggested that a 'wai diet' whether it is the official version (that includes processed and neolithic foods) or some unofficial 'paleo' version here of seafood and fruit that it is not sustainable long term as a diet. Its seems rather disingenuous to promote something as a 'paleo diet' if not only it is something that our ancestors could not permanently subsist on nor is it something people are showing to create health long term. Particulary if refined foods like oils are needed to balance the diet out.

 For this reason it doesn't seem to be nitpicking to suggest if someone really wanted to be accurate that it would be listed amongst 'other RVAF diets' or something similar which would include the others. Whether something like 'instincto' ends up with a product remotely similar to how our ancestors would have eaten I do not know..but at least it doesn't carry an extreme mixed message which what types of things or ok to fudge on with 'paleo' and which things are not.

Theres also a larger point that these definitions often attempt to discredit workable concepts while promoting others that are either unimportant or neglectful of whether the end product is a healthy diet at all, and this includes cordain et al.

[goodsamaritan]

seafood and fruit that it is not sustainable long term as a diet

In the Philippines seafood and fruit IS SUSTAINABLE long term.

We live in different countries... remember?

We got tons of fruit.

We got tons of sea food.

All of it non-stop.

[KD]

?

I'm not talking about environmental sustainability. I'm talking about living in optimal health while neglecting all ruminant meats and fats. Would your health improve going back to a wai diet or not? would paleo ancestors do better just eating seafoods and fruits to justify it being labeled a diet of the paleolithic? why pussy-foot around this stuff? Its a simple point. If a diet is seen as not healthy long term, how is it a paleo diet?

[goodsamaritan]

?

I'm not talking about environmental sustainability. I'm talking about living in optimal health while neglecting all ruminant meats and fats. Would your health improve going back to a wai diet or not? would paleo ancestors do better just eating seafoods and fruits to justify it being labeled a diet of the paleolithic? why pussy-foot around this stuff?

I do great on fruits.

You should see our fruits here.  They are just great.

Philippines is just bursting with fruit.  There is always a new organic / wild fruit in season each month.

We are drowning in wild mangoes these days.  You can come up to mango trees without a ladder and gather sack fulls.  But who would eat all of it?  And it's free.

And sea food?  You betcha.

There are times I do sea food days.

When my office was beside the wet market last year, I ate blue marlin, tuna, oysters, clams, squid, shrimp more often than beef or horse or lamb.

Blue marlin is so fatty dreamy... And shrimp?  If I had more money, I'd buy it more often... it's more expensive than beef.

So when my office was beside the big wet market I was more Wai Diet.

Sea food doesn't store long in the refrigerator. 1 day only.

The way I see it is you and Phil are riled up because some of these Wai dieters got into a refined sugar craze.... I think they are idiots too!

[TylerDurden]

You're just quibbling. We've already given many reasons as to why the wai diet is more rawpalaeo in theme than diets like the weston-price diet or the primal diet. Minor exceptions here and there don't matter as they are less extreme than those other 2 diets.

[KD]

The way I see it is you and Phil are riled up because some of these Wai dieters got into a refined sugar craze.... I think they are idiots too!

This isn't at all my opinion. I've stated quite a few things that you never even addressed. The sugar was one issue. now Ive turned and already said if the diet only contained seafood and fruit and no 'neolithic food' it is unsustainable, which was dodged as with all the other points because there is no answer only that there is a incredible bias/blind-spot to these issues of common sense. Generally it looks bad to promote things you do not believe are optimal or sound decision making.

?

I'm not talking about environmental sustainability. I'm talking about living in optimal health while neglecting all ruminant meats and fats. Would your health improve going back to a wai diet or not? would paleo ancestors do better just eating seafoods and fruits to justify it being labeled a diet of the paleolithic? why pussy-foot around this stuff? Its a simple point. If a diet is seen as not healthy long term, how is it a paleo diet?

this is minor qubbling? that a diet is be proposed as a paleolithic option on a health forum that is anchored in potentially unhealthy concepts and of which no one sees as a long term solution or prefered over what they are currently doing - unlike adherents to ZC, primal, instincto etc... It isn't a matter of which is the worst offender. its that on top of the 'minor exceptions' of neolithic and modern processes (which are really ARE staples of wai) the principles of the diet are not those of a healthy 'paleo' diet and are not healthy.

[goodsamaritan]

Didn't I just answer you in the affirmative?

Long term wai diet is good in the Philippines.

In fact good sea food is easier to come by than good beef in many parts of the country.

Fruit is a given, it is everywhere too.

Philippines + Wai Diet = is Good.

[KD]

while neglecting all ruminant meats and fats. Would your health improve going back to a wai diet or not?

[goodsamaritan]

I just answered you in my previous posts about when I held office beside the wet market I was doing more wai diet.  Because sea food was more readily accessible in that location.

These days I'm gravitating towards instincto.

Wai Diet is good.  

Those sugar idiots in the forum posts you linked to are idiots.  Someone should tell them that.

*** Not eating sea food is bad for my health FYI.  There is something in the sea food that really rocks.  Sea food is more wild than any beef source I have right now.

[KD]

ah the Bill Clintons of the paleo world.

ok then in closing, anyone can see that there is no need to compare which diets are 'least plaeo' to say that the wai diet as described by its gurus and main practitioners is not a paleo diet whatsoever and furthermore that the definitions given to establish what is 'paleo' basically have nothing to do with what is healthy or natural. In addition the 'paleo version' of wai theorized by people on RPF and practiced by no known modern or ancient person (other than potential AV tribe) is not a diet people of the paleolithic would have eaten. It is also not a suitable diet long term for optimal health and since people will inevitably be encouraged or desperate to add other animal foods or do other modifications the diet is not a 'paleo diet' itself because a true plaeo diet, a true healthy diet, would be a diet that one could raise generations of people following without modification to its priciples.

*** Not eating sea food is bad for my health FYI.  There is something in the sea food that really rocks.  Sea food is more wild than any beef source I have right now.

being on the east coast of the US I also like seafood and fruit

[TylerDurden]

I don't personally thrive on just raw seafood and raw fruit, but I don't discount the strong possibility that others would do fine on such a diet, such as palaeo-era tribes right next to the coast, say, who had deserts on one side(such geographical areas do exist around the world)/

[PaleoPhil]

All processing is not alike. There's a difference between home-processed foods and industrially-processed foods and by coincidence, Stephan Guyenet touched on it a couple days ago:

I try to say "industrially processed" rather than just "processed". Usually what I mean by that is processing steps that are impossible or impractical in the home, and particularly steps that are not indigenous to long-term healthy cultures. What I mean in this context though, is more than just "refined". I mean foods that have been professionally composed to maximize reward value so that you'll keep buying them. Things like chips, candy, cakes, fast food, etc. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/05/fast-food-weight-gain-and-insulin.html

That section where Wai completely explained the usefulness of sugar is NOT some sort of penalty that should get them expelled from the raw paleo forum tribe.

I agree and I didn't ask the Wai section to be expelled. I'm just not sure that it makes sense to have it in the Paleo subsection of the forum, that's all. Not a big deal but it seems like it has stirred up some old bitter feelings, perhaps due to an unrelated past effort by someone else to get the Wai diet expelled from the forum.

The Weston Price and Primal are in a separate section and no one complains about it, and the Wai Diet doesn't have to be equivalent to those other diets to be in a different subsection than raw Paleo, and it wouldn't mean that anyone necessarily thinks that the Wai diet is bad because of it. As KD has said many times, sometimes doing something that's not 100% Paleo might be therapeutic for some folks. It would just be a step to help reduce confusion.

As you know I heal people and I'm connected with very knowledgeable healers.  My pro healer friend Vander Gaditano will use table sugar in emergencies for those people who are "resource challenged".

There, you see, that's exactly the sort of thing that KD has been talking about for months. So that's something you can agree with him on.

Loren Howe makes no mistake in saying Wai Diet is a form of Paleo Diet

He's certainly entitled to his opinion and I defend his right to his opinion.

I'm thankful for Craig and Geoff's foresight in including Wai Diet in this forum... it was via Wai Diet I came to a more complete Raw Paleo Diet.

Yes, that's one reason why I support keeping it at this forum, my only question was whether it makes sense for it to be in the Paleo subsection or whether that adds to confusion about what Paleo means. Somehow it got misunderstood into a request to ban it from the forum, which I never asked for. KD seems to understand what I was saying.

There seems to be some heat generating on this topic, unfortunately, so I'd like to take a break from it here and do some exploring at the Wai forum, where I registered so I can ask questions. I haven't gotten any responses from any active Wai members here, but maybe I'll have better luck there.

If we are to persecute Wai Diet.

I don't want to persecute the Wai diet, if it's possible to persecute a diet.

Then we will have to persecute Weston Price because hell they cook their stuff.

Hmmm, I AM tempted to get revenge on the WAPF devotees after a couple of them attacked me years ago. LOL But alas, that wouldn't be right.

[goodsamaritan]

Moving Wai Dieters below Weston Price is a good idea.

Any Yays from the other mods?

[TylerDurden]

Moving Wai Dieters below Weston Price is a good idea.

Any Yays from the other mods?

Nyet, no, nein. Primal diet and weston-price diet have things in common with each other re raw dairy. Wai diet should not be in a raw-dairy-oriented section.