Health & Climate

[Kokki]

Does the climate really matter? I`m becoming skeptical toward cold climate.. here`s no right summer at all (living in (F)inland).

As you all know, everything originates from the sun. It faciliates and speeds detoxification and healing processes. Bacteria are doing better in warm and humid climate. Fresh grass makes meat fattier. IMO, cold promotes aging and all kinds of decaying. Even pollution is more harmful when breathed in with frozen cold air. There`s no need to even mention that longevity is unknown.

I`m feeling alive when it`s so called summer here, as everyone else does.

If you have something good to say from this kind of climate, please let me know 

Planning to move elsewhere, half-seriously.. still having inability to endure cold.

Thoughts?

[RawZi]

    Are you eating very high (animal raw) fat?

[TylerDurden]

I far prefer a cold climate.This is partly because I had heat-intolerance for years prior to going rawpalaeo, but also because I'm an avid skier and because I always feel more alive when it's cold. When it's warm or hot, I just feel sluggish and not at my best, which is why I'm grateful that I live in the UK, with a generally cold, wet climate.

[Kokki]

Rawzi

Yes and no. I`m eating bone marrow always when it`s available, fatty lamb/beef, some fresh and rotten organs, milk, butter (about half pound per week) and eggs (rare in winter, because chickens don`t lay much) for fat, all is organic (some aren`t so paleo, sorry for that). I really hope that I would eat more animal fats like bone marrow, lard and butter.

Tyler

I have heard that it`s very long growing season in UK (even 360 days). It`s only about 3 months here, so it´s impossible to have any kind of crop from vegetables. Even thought it`s summer, there may be frost sometimes, and crops die.

[invisible]

I think if anything a cold climate would make you live longer since it would slightly lower body temperature. In cold blooded animals where body temperature is not regulated much, the same animal living in cold climates can live 500% longer. In warm blooded animals like humans, the body temperature doesn't change as much with climate or death occurs, so effect no so drastic.

[Sully]

I would say it depends on genetics and diet. Someone with brown to dark brown skin may do better in warm climates. Someone with light skin may do better in cooler climates. I feel comfortable here in Wisconsin. My mother has European ancestry. My father lives and is from the middles east.

[RawZi]

Rawzi

Yes and no. I`m eating bone marrow always when it`s available, fatty lamb/beef, some fresh and rotten organs, milk, butter (about half pound per week) and eggs (rare in winter, because chickens don`t lay much) for fat, all is organic (some aren`t so paleo, sorry for that). I really hope that I would eat more animal fats like bone marrow, lard and butter.

    Is the milk soured or fermented?  Which organs?  Are all the foods raw?  You don't bother me if you eat some neolithic foods.  I think Finnish tolerate them better than most peoples usually anyway. 

    What kind of outdoor activity do you get?  Do you take cool showers or baths?  Use radiator or other method to heat your home?  Self massage?  There are so many things to go through tweaking, but if you like warm climate, you should be where you enjoy.  

In cold blooded animals where body temperature is not regulated much, the same animal living in cold climates can live 500% longer.

    Which cold blooded animals?  Some cold blooded animals don't do well in cold climates and die.  Which ones are you thinking of?  Don't most cold blooded animals live in warm climates?  Do you mean fish?

[PaleoPhil]

The key seems to be vitamin D3. If it's winter and you can't get much sun, then try to get vitamin D3 from foods:

Cod liver oil
Salmon
Mackerel
Fresh tuna fish
Sardines
Egg (yolk)
Liver
etc.

[Kokki]

RawZi

I`m eating both: fermented and fresh milk. Kidney and liver are the most typical (testicles rare). Everything I eat is completely raw (it has been so about 2 years now) and organic/wild. You`re right, neolithic foods are really better tolerated here (even pasteurized products). My body seems to love (raw) butter/honey mixture.

Taking care of animals and all kind of practical working include my outdoor activity. I love trekking in wilderness, sauna and swimming. My parents house where I live now hasn`t radiator warming, but water warming. My incoming house needs wood to keep warm, so I have to pollute myself. (smoke makes me headache which lasts 2 days)

There`s maybe one good thing: low population, so pollution levels are quite low (except winter). Here`s fairly under 40 000 people in my home town.

[goodsamaritan]

I have customers who grew up in Canada.
They recently migrated to the Philippines.
They said they just grew tired of the cold in Canada.

[Kokki]

I would say it depends on genetics and diet. Someone with brown to dark brown skin may do better in warm climates. Someone with light skin may do better in cooler climates. I feel comfortable here in Wisconsin. My mother has European ancestry. My father lives and is from the middles east.

I would say that white/pale skin is NEVER normal. Even Eskimos aren`t white, although they can`t tan. I know many very healthy guys whose skin is deep brown/red (not inflamed), like Aajonus`s. White skin is ugly. Persons with dark hairs and skin look gorgeous.

[TylerDurden]

I would say that white/pale skin is NEVER normal. Even Eskimos aren`t white, although they can`t tan. I know many very healthy guys whose skin is deep brown/red (not inflamed), like Aajonus`s. White skin is ugly. Persons with dark hairs and skin look gorgeous.

 I might like to point out that the skin of many East Asians/Orientals can be even whiter/paler than that of a number of Caucasians. Have a look at the actress Rosalind Chao, for example. As for tanned skin being claimed to be  prettier due to being darker that I suppose is more of a Caucasian viewpoint. Indians, for example prefer lighter-coloured skin.

Incidentally, I've heard the usual claims re the origin of white skin and the  climate one doesn't make sense(if you think about it Africans are far more adapted to hot climates(their physical aspects protecting against the heat, not just the melanin) while Asians(Orientals, that is, like the Inuit are far more adapted to cold climates due to having much shorter stature etc.). The claim re milk-consumption creating white skin doesn't make sense either as it's very clear that white skin originated much earlier(for example, Neanderthals are described as being commonly red-haired,meaning that white skin originated at least many 100s of thousands of years ago, if not more.Having seen light-skinned monkeys, such as the Japanese macaque, I can imagine a possibly much older origin.

[RawZi]

fermented and fresh milk. Kidney and liver are the most typical (testicles rare). Everything I eat is completely raw (it has been so about 2 years now) and organic/wild. You`re right, neolithic foods are really better tolerated here (even pasteurized products). My body seems to love (raw) butter/honey mixture.

    I think you say all the liver is fermented?  Even so, I was thinking along the lines of carbohydrates.  That maybe fresh milk and other carb containing food may make it harder to tolerate cold.

Taking care of animals and all kind of practical working include my outdoor activity. I love trekking in wilderness, sauna and swimming. My parents house where I live now hasn`t radiator warming, but water warming. My incoming house needs wood to keep warm, so I have to pollute myself. (smoke makes me headache which lasts 2 days)

    Where do you swim?  I love river water.  Each type of water has its own quality(ies) be they positive or negative.  If a pool, is it heated?  Saunas are so good for detox, must put that on my list.  Any kind of stove, radiator etc that I've tried so far can give me headaches.  Half a dozen of one, six of the other, heat may be needed some time and you have to do what you can.  I wish you luck with the wood and everything.  I may start using one myself.  Maybe we can exchange ideas on what kind of wood etc.

There`s maybe one good thing: low population, so pollution levels are quite low (except winter).

    Yes, but will that make you warm or tolerant to cold?

[RawZi]

I would say that white/pale skin is NEVER normal. Even Eskimos aren`t white, although they can`t tan. I know many very healthy guys whose skin is deep brown/red (not inflamed), like Aajonus`s. White skin is ugly. Persons with dark hairs and skin look gorgeous.

    Veganism made my skin redder and orange-er, but I did not necessarily feel better.  Eating RAF got my skin lighter colored, but feels much healthier in the skin for me, joints and bones.  I haven't been doing it as long as aajonus though.  Dark hair does look beautiful and can be a sign of healthy hormones and dark skin generally looks healthier than most people with light, but there are so many variables, I can't be concerned. 

[livingthelife]

Perhaps it is the lack of sunlight as much as the cold that is discouraging? Techniques of feng shui bring light and energy into your home. I did this last winter and it helped significantly.

Rather than cold and dark causing decay, they cause contraction - like hibernation. You live in an unusual climate and it seems that in order to thrive there a person would need to find ways of inducing vitality - just as those in a warmer climate learn to conserve it.

I hope you are soon feeling better!

[TylerDurden]

I had darker, redder skin-tone in my pre-rawpalaeo days, along with distinct black circles under my eyes. Skin-disorders are apparently normal for those with wrecked glandular systems. My skin nowadays looks much lighter/paler in tone, almost glowing. Incidentally, a darker skin-tone isn't necessarily healthy. Look at tanning, which darkens the skin, and is a sign of the skin being damaged by the sun's rays.

[PaleoPhil]

AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGISTS MEETING:
European Skin Turned Pale Only Recently, Gene Suggests
Ann Gibbons
Science 20 April 2007:
Vol. 316. no. 5823, p. 364
DOI: 10.1126/science.316.5823.364a
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/316/5823/364a

"PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA--At the American Association of Physical Anthropologists meeting, held here from 28 to 31 March, a new report on the evolution of a gene for skin color suggested that Europeans acquired pale skin quite recently, perhaps only 6000 to 12,000 years ago."

Red hair predates pale skin by millions of years, predating homo sapiens. Remember, orang-utans have red hair without pale skin:

http://www.solcomhouse.com/images/orangutan-pi.jpg

Neanderthal red hair is from a different gene than that of H. sapiens, so even if H. sapiens red hair is always associated with pale skin, it is not necessarily so in Neanderthals ("Neanderthals 'were flame-haired,'" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7062415.stm).

[invisible]

Fair skin is an advantage where there is a less sunlight. Fair skin absorbs more vitamin D from the sun, so people with dark skin have a harder time getting necessary vitamin D in colder climates.

[invisible]

   Which cold blooded animals?  Some cold blooded animals don't do well in cold climates and die.  Which ones are you thinking of?  Don't most cold blooded animals live in warm climates?  Do you mean fish?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090727191906.htm

which cold blooded animals are you thinking of?
They may die if the temperature is too cold for them to survive, but if it's tolerable than they live longer. Much longer.

[PaleoPhil]

I have pale skin and even I acknowledge that pale skin is a deformity. It is entirely unnecessary in any environment. The Sami, Nenets, Inuit, etc., who lived in the most northerly Arctic altitudes originally had swarthy skin, rather than pale. Here are some examples:

Sami
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3078/3096604570_729ecb5a03.jpg

Inuit
http://blog-static.excite.eu/it/blogs/topos/share/img/inuit.jpg
http://www.travel-images.com/photo-russia421.html
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/earth/polar/images/pc_lc_inuit.jpg
http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/183131/1/Eskimo-$28inuit$29-Woman-And-Baby.jpg

Nenets
http://www.galdu.org/govat/smavva/nenets_and_johan_mathis_turi_nadym_2007__svein_d_mathiesen.jpg
http://www.e-pics.ethz.ch/index/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/images/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Dia_023-015_16005.jpg

Some of them have become pale by mixing with paler peoples. Scientific evidence has recently shown that pale skin did not exist among any hominids until at most 12,000 years ago, as I indicated above. If you eat RPD, even if you are pale, you will find your skin burns less readily and may even tan a bit, as mine started to when I when standard Paleo, which was the first tanning I had experienced in over a decade.

I don't let the fact that pale skin is a mutation brought on by agrarian foods bother me, and I don't feel it necessary to pretend that pale skin is natural. I just eat my RPD, enjoy the fact that I burn less easily, and enjoy life.

Of course, given my experience with my fellow pale folk, I know this knowledge will come as a shock and there will be much resistance. That is only natural and to be expected. Curse not your fate, or darker skinned folk, etc., for that is futile and destructive. You may curse agrarian foods if you wish, and it may help you avoid being tempted by them.

As Tyler indicated, the idea that pale skin comes from climate alone is bogus and has been refuted by the evidence. If climate were the only factor, then all indigenous Arctic peoples would be pale. This is clearly not the case, even in modern times.

See also:  "The Paleo-Etiology of Human Skin Tone," http://backintyme.com/essay021215.htm

BTW, Tyler, you may be aware that black circles under the eyes are associated with excessive plant eating, due to anemia and other deficiencies, probably exacerbated by inflammation and weak capillary walls.

As for the paler non-human primates. If you examine their diets you will probably find they eat lots of plant foods and include fruits, seeds and/or cereals in their diets.

The tarsier is a carnivorous primate. Despite being nocturnal, most wild tarsiers do not have pale skin (http://scienceblogs.com/zooillogix/2008/06/filipino_tarsiers.php, http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_512VEbm7xB0/SlDkErpyIdI/AAAAAAAAeSc/P5-TJFvCe7k/s400/17.jpg). In interesting contrast to the giant pandas, which are carnivores that eat 99% bamboo, "Young tarsiers are born furred, and with open eyes, and are able to climb within a day of birth. They reach sexual maturity by the end of their second year." Whereas the plant-eating giant pandas are born blind, with much less hair than most mammals, and helpless. Compared to most mammals, giant pandas are undersexed and have poor fertility, even in the wild. Notice any trends here? It's not surprising at all that plant-food advocates like Dr. Kellogg claimed that vegetables suppress the sex drive and meats promote it.

[William]

The only Inuk I've ever seen with shirt off had skin as white as any white man. His face, however, was as brown as any others who spend much time outside. Not as brown as mine when I returned from a three week vacation in the Caribbean many years ago.

[RawZi]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090727191906.htm

which cold blooded animals are you thinking of?

    Herbivorous lizards?  They need to lay on warming rocks in the sun to warm their crops (area under/between tail and torso) or they won't digest their food.  Ideally the air temperature should be between ninety and one hundred degrees F for this to happen at least for several hours each day. 

    Without direct sunlight, since their diets do no provide vitamin D, their bones bend and crumble.

If ecophysiological constraints imposed by eating plants necessitate high body temperatures and small body size in coolclimate herbivores, then phylogenetic history also may have played a critical role in promoting the repeated evolution of herbivory in liolaemids. Ancestral state reconstructions indicate that the common ancestor of Liolaemidae had a small body size
(reconstructed SVL 80.4     11.7 mm for 86 taxa) and a preference for high body temperatures (reconstructed value 33.8    5.8°C for 52 taxa), even though this ancestor was most likely insectivorous (Fig. 1) and lived in a warm climate (reconstructed value 37.0     4.9°C for 86 taxa). Thus, the evidence suggests that the critical ecophysiological traits permitting the repeated evolution of herbivory in cold-climate liolaemids were inherited from an ancestor that evolved in a very different climate and with a very different diet.
In summary, our studies reveal repeated and unexpected origins of herbivory in liolaemid lizards that challenge many preconceptions about the evolution of dietary strategies in vertebrates. The discovery of the repeated evolution of herbivory in small-bodied, cool-climate-dwelling liolaemids also raises many questions for future research, such as how liolaemids overcome the disadvantages of small size for digestive efficiency and why other groups of lizards with similar attributes (i.e., small size, cool-climate distribution, and high body temperatures) have not evolved herbivory (e.g., some lacertids, Phrynocephalus, and Sceloporus). More generally, our results show how characteristics of the environment, ecophysiology, and phylogenetic history can interact in unexpected ways to cause striking changes in macroevolutionary trends in diet.

[TylerDurden]

AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGISTS MEETING:
European Skin Turned Pale Only Recently, Gene Suggests
Ann Gibbons
Science 20 April 2007:
Vol. 316. no. 5823, p. 364
DOI: 10.1126/science.316.5823.364a
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/316/5823/364a

"PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA--At the American Association of Physical Anthropologists meeting, held here from 28 to 31 March, a new report on the evolution of a gene for skin color suggested that Europeans acquired pale skin quite recently, perhaps only 6000 to 12,000 years ago."

This is the most absurd bad science I have ever read and shows just why we should heed RawKyle's call to ignore much of the guff that has been written about linking specific genes to diet or everything else. The simple fact is that the Cro-magnon(who've been studied extensively had pale skin, and, these existed throughout the Palaeolithic in Europe/Western Asia). Here's an anthropology blog which cites studies pointing out that red hair existed thousands of years ago into the Palaeolithic(80,000 in this case):-

"For the European red hair-associated Arg151cys and Arg160Trp variants, we estimate an age of ~80,000 years"

also:-"The red hair genes generally produce a somewhat lighter skin tone, even if you aren’t homogeneous for ginger hair genes (ie, red haired). I should know, I have one pale ginger gene from Granny, and I’m porcelain skinned and burn very easily, even with the dark hair. Red haired individuals are a lot lighter skinned and don’t tan, and prone to sunburn. Alos, genes that cause lighter eye colours also lighten skin colour.

Leaving aside the Neanderthal date of this gene, this would make the first Europeans pretty much the same skin tone wise as modern ones, as the red hair MC1R mutations affect skin as well as hair colour, almost like a mild form of albinism. This would have meant there probably wasn’t much difference between Cro Magnon and Modern European skin tone."

Red hair predates pale skin by millions of years, predating homo sapiens. Remember, orang-utans have red hair without pale skin:

http://www.solcomhouse.com/images/orangutan-pi.jpg

Meaningless. Judging from this study, light skin has always been a part of our ancestry. This study shows that our common ancestor we have with the apes must have had pale skin given that chimpanzees have pale skin:-

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/19/science/why-humans-and-their-fur-parted-ways.html?sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=3

Also:-

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200010/ai_n8910333/

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/24/3/710

"from wikipedia entry referencing the above 2 studies:- "When humans migrated out of Africa, the lighter skin causing alleles may have accumulated in one population, either by genetic drift, natural selection, sexual selection or a combination of these effects. Since their effects are additive it is possible light skin could arise over several generations without any new mutations taking place."

Neanderthal red hair is from a different gene than that of H. sapiens, so even if H. sapiens red hair is always associated with pale skin, it is not necessarily so in Neanderthals ("Neanderthals 'were flame-haired,'" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7062415.stm).

There's a serious problem with the above argument since there is good reason, in scientific circles nowadays, to acknowledge that Neanderthals interbred with ancient humans.

[TylerDurden]

I have pale skin and even I acknowledge that pale skin is a deformity.

This is just an absurd comment. For such a trait to arise it had to be a positive selective trait. For example, one of the suggestions I mentioned was that Africans are better adapted to hotter climates with East Asians more adapted to colder climates(due to stature/shape of noses etc.), with Europeans therefore presumably being more adapted to temperate climates.

There is another, more likely explanation for lighter skin being selected:- "A 2006 study provides evidence that the light skin pigmentation observed in Europeans and East Asians arose independently. They concluded that light pigmentation in Europeans is at least partially due to the effects of positive directional and/or sexual selection":-

taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people#Origins_of_light_skin

Study referenced is found here:-

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/msl203v1.pdf

It is entirely unnecessary in any environment.

Again, as shown above, I consider it possible that Europeans may be more adapted to temperate climates than colder ones.

, thoThe Sami, Nenets, Inuit, etc., who lived in the most northerly Arctic altitudes originally had swarthy skin, rather than pale.

I once asked a palaeoanthroplogist why The Inuit didn't have fair skin/blue eyes and the answer was that they came to the Arctic too recently for such a 100% change to take place.

 Here are some examples:

Sami
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3078/3096604570_729ecb5a03.jpg

I've seen many pictures of Sami with much lighter complexions:-

http://www.baarstua.no/Pictures/Alle%20foto%20Vidar%20Hoel/Boazo%20Sami%20Siida%20-%20familie%20copy.jpg

Inuit
http://blog-static.excite.eu/it/blogs/topos/share/img/inuit.jpg
http://www.travel-images.com/photo-russia421.html
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/earth/polar/images/pc_lc_inuit.jpg
http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/183131/1/Eskimo-$28inuit$29-Woman-And-Baby.jpg

The 2nd Inuit photo, the woman on the left is decidedly paler. The 3rd and 4th photo and pictrue show rather pale skin, IMO(almost glowing in the 3rd link).

Plus. I've seen plenty of (unmixed) Inuit with very pale skin., looking more like this:-

http://www.sciencepoles.org/pics/people/inuit_woman_or.jpg

And then there's those Inuit women in Due South's episode "The Mask", with classic Inuit features and very pale skin. I may show those photos next time, if necessary.

Nenets
http://www.galdu.org/govat/smavva/nenets_and_johan_mathis_turi_nadym_2007__svein_d_mathiesen.jpg
http://www.e-pics.ethz.ch/index/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/images/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Dia_023-015_16005.jpg

The first Nenet photo is something of an own goal, showing rather pale features. The 2nd photo shows a baby with remarkably pale skin.

Here's some of mine showing Nenets as being mostly pale:-

http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=WD001385&ext=1

http://www.semp.us/_images/securitas/Story1PhotoH.jpg

Some of them have become pale by mixing with paler peoples.

Clearly, the fact that there are unmixed types of Inuit with pale skin makes the above claim pointless.

 

Scientific evidence has recently shown that pale skin did not exist among any hominids until at most 12,000 years ago, as I indicated above.

Already disproven - see my earlier post.

I don't let the fact that pale skin is a mutation brought on by agrarian foods bother me, and I don't feel it necessary to pretend that pale skin is natural. I just eat my RPD, enjoy the fact that I burn less easily, and enjoy life.

There is zero evidence linking the origin of pale skin to the consumption of agrarian foods, whether dairy or otherwise, especially since paler skin originated much earlier. See my earlier post.

As Tyler indicated, the idea that pale skin comes from climate alone is bogus and has been refuted by the evidence. If climate were the only factor, then all indigenous Arctic peoples would be pale. This is clearly not the case, even in modern times.

Quite wrong, as pointed out previously , the Arctic Native peoples haven't been there long enough for selective traits to appear, though many have remarkably pale skin. And I don't rule the climate-notion out entirely, though I prefer the more likely sexual selection theory as shown above.

BTW, Tyler, you may be aware that black circles under the eyes are associated with excessive plant eating, due to anemia and other deficiencies, probably exacerbated by inflammation and weak capillary walls.

Your mention of black circles under the eyes is most unfortunate as I not only got them from decades of eating SAD, but they were the most pronounced and severe during my raw-dairy-phase and during my raw, zero-carb trials - never had them on raw, omnivorous rawpalaeo, I just had to avoid dairy and all-ZC diet. In other words, plants had nothing to do with the black circles under my eyes.

As for the paler non-human primates. If you examine their diets you will probably find they eat lots of plant foods and include fruits, seeds and/or cereals in their diets.

Not valid at all, especially since there are plenty of relatively pale-skinned carnivores like lions.

As for the claim re plants reducing sexuality, well cooked animal foods also cause arterial blockages and poor circulation etc. which also cause sexual impotency/infertility(and I noticed a distinct drop in sex-drive(and everything else) after some weeks of doing raw, zero-carb).  So, maybe a few plant foods are required, at least for me, anyway.

[yon yonson]

im not that interested in arguing about this topic because i don't really care either way. BUT i was thinking that it would make sense that lighter skinned people live where it is more likely to snow purely for camouflage reasons. thoughts?