Health & Climate

[PaleoPhil]

Bad news - Sagan has been outed by McCanney as possessed of the demon ORTHODOXY.

I cited Sagan in reference to the fact that I didn't witness him expressing hatred or intense anger toward religion, as Dawkins and Hitchens sometimes seem to (I actually prefer to describe it as anger rather than hatred, as the latter seems to imply that I know their inner feelings, though I have seen Hitchens use language as strong as hatred, if not that particular word), and to Sagan's promotion of the scientist's toolkit. Are you referring to those things as regards McCanney, or something else?

In fairness to Dawkins, I've only read a few of his articles and reviews of his books and seen I think one interview of him, and he did seem less angry than Hitchens, so I probably should use more a moderate term for his views on religion, such as "distaste."

[TylerDurden]

You've made pretty clear what you're against. It's what you're for that is still a bit hazy. So it sounds like you view sexual selection as the primary difference in skin color shades, or perhaps genetics, with climate as a much less important factor and diet not a factor at all? Do you think epigenetics has any effect on skin shades? Do you recommend the views of any scientists on this subject?

I'm not terribly interested in this topic, I was more concerned with the notion of traits such as pale skin supposedly appearing out of nowhere in very recent times. It seems logical to me, based on the archaeological evidence,  that the slow pace of evolution that Darwin promoted is by far the most likely model for the appearance of any genetic trait rather than a sudden, quasi-Creationist-styled appearance.

[Kokki]

Interesting discussion.. don`t know what to say 

Sorry RawZi, I forgot to answer. Lake is the place where I swim. Liver is fermeted. I`m not sure if these carbohydrate amounts are giving me cold-intolerance. I haven`t tried massage.

[William]

I cited Sagan in reference to the fact that I didn't witness him expressing hatred or intense anger toward religion, as Dawkins and Hitchens sometimes seem to (I actually prefer to describe it as anger rather than hatred, as the latter seems to imply that I know their inner feelings, though I have seen Hitchens use language as strong as hatred, if not that particular word), and to Sagan's promotion of the scientist's toolkit. Are you referring to those things as regards McCanney, or something else?

McCanney appears to be a scientist, as he observed evidence, created a theory to explain it which makes the previously mysterious um, aaah, sort of understandable. It's astrophysics, after all.
Sagan was a publicist, AFAIK, and conformed to the establishment view.

[PaleoPhil]

...I was more concerned with the notion of traits such as pale skin supposedly appearing out of nowhere in very recent times. It seems logical to me, based on the archaeological evidence,  that the slow pace of evolution that Darwin promoted is by far the most likely model for the appearance of any genetic trait rather than a sudden, quasi-Creationist-styled appearance.

So you don't think that there was an increase in the paleness of northwestern European skin ca 6-12 thousand years ago?

William wrote:

Sagan was a publicist, AFAIK...

I think he would have agreed with that. As I recall, his stated goal was to publicize, promote and teach science and didn't claim to be an innovative scientist himself. However, it's not my job to defend him, and it sounds like you were referring to astrophysics, whereas I was referring to Sagan's relative tolerance toward religion/spirituality as compared to Hitchens, and Sagan's advocacy of the scientific method. Two different subjects.

[TylerDurden]

So you don't think that there was an increase in the paleness of northwestern European skin ca 6-12 thousand years ago?

Definitely not. Any increase in paleness seems to have occurred at least 80,000 years ago and more than likely far further than that. As I pointed out previously, it's thought that the common ancestor we had with apes appears to have had pale skin.

[raw]

    Vitamin D (the sunshine vitamin that darkens skin) deficiency and allergy to grains (celiac) go hand in hand.  I wonder if this could be related to a race evolving to have lighter skin.

my little boy is much more darker than me and he needs more sunlight to get enough vit D than me. this is a disadvantage to born in colder country with dark skin.

[PrimalLadyRosy]

my little boy is much more darker than me and he needs more sunlight to get enough vit D than me.

    Four of us rawsters were chatting tonight.  PaleoPhil said he uses egg yolks for Vitamin D.  Vitamin D is the vitamin that strengthens bones.  Inuit had strong bones, yet they did not expose their skin to the sun.  Vitamin D is in the kind of food we eat here.  There are other tricks to raising and maintaining vitamin D at good level too.  You will learn for your son and teach him.  It's tempting though to go back to a sunnier climate.

[raw]

    Four of us rawsters were chatting tonight.  PaleoPhil said he uses egg yolks for Vitamin D.  Vitamin D is the vitamin that strengthens bones.  Inuit had strong bones, yet they did not expose their skin to the sun.  Vitamin D is in the kind of food we eat here.  There are other tricks to raising and maintaining vitamin D at good level too.  You will learn for your son and teach him.  It's tempting though to go back to a sunnier climate.

in order to accomplish the need of vit D in our bodies, we need to consume 20 egg yolks a day. i mainly depend on cod liver oil for that. thanks.

[PrimalLadyRosy]

in order to accomplish the need of vit D in our bodies, we need to consume 20 egg yolks a day. i mainly depend on cod liver oil for that. thanks.

    Good health to you.  I do know of people eating forty-eight whole eggs every day along with the rest of their food.  It is not for everyone.  You might be surprised.  Many raw animal foods have vitamin D.  Have you or your son tested low for vitamin D?

[TylerDurden]

Raw shellfish is very high in vitamin D.

[raw]

    Good health to you.  I do know of people eating forty-eight whole eggs every day along with the rest of their food.  It is not for everyone.  You might be surprised.  Many raw animal foods have vitamin D.  Have you or your son tested low for vitamin D?

yes, my son suffer significant of vit D deficiency. i put him long period of time in the sun (summer) and i give him cod liver oil from whole food and within two months, he gets enough vit D. thanks.

[PaleoPhil]

Quote from: PrimalLadyRosy on Yesterday at 11:45:33 PM
    Four of us rawsters were chatting tonight.  PaleoPhil said he uses egg yolks for Vitamin D.  Vitamin D is the vitamin that strengthens bones.  Inuit had strong bones, yet they did not expose their skin to the sun.  Vitamin D is in the kind of food we eat here.  There are other tricks to raising and maintaining vitamin D at good level too.  You will learn for your son and teach him.  It's tempting though to go back to a sunnier climate.
in order to accomplish the need of vit D in our bodies, we need to consume 20 egg yolks a day. i mainly depend on cod liver oil for that. thanks.

in order to accomplish the need of vit D in our bodies, we need to consume 20 egg yolks a day. i mainly depend on cod liver oil for that. thanks.

I only eat 2-4 raw eggs per day, so I also consume raw cod liver oil and occasional raw liver, shellfish and fatty fish for vitamin D.

Tyler, have you ever eaten wild clams raw? The shells of the ones in my local market are small--how do you recommend opening them?

[TylerDurden]

Tyler, have you ever eaten wild clams raw? The shells of the ones in my local market are small--how do you recommend opening them?

I've tried eating raw wild clams, years ago, but it was such a nuisance that I haven't done so since.The clams were just so small that it wasn't worth the bother - normally, for raw mussels I use a metal walnut-cracker, but I couldn't get a grip using it on the clams, so I seem to recall I used a hammer in the end.

[PaleoPhil]

Dang, I was afraid of that. Clams are the only wild shellfish sold in my area of landlocked Vermont and they're so small it's hardly worth the bother of buying them even when steaming them--and hammering seems like even more bother than they're worth--although they do taste very good and it does add variety. So for now I steam them just long enough for them to open, hoping I still get some Vit. D and minerals out of it. Since I don't seem to react to cooked foods as badly as you, I think it's a decent compromise until I'm eating more raw liver.

What do you think about the claims that one shouldn't eat raw shellfish that doesn't open when steamed (there are usually a couple of clams that don't open in my batches)?

[TylerDurden]

What do you think about the claims that one shouldn't eat raw shellfish that doesn't open when steamed (there are usually a couple of clams that don't open in my batches)?

I've never heard of those claims. And since I never steam my raw shellfish, the issue hasn't come up.

[djr_81]

I've never heard of those claims. And since I never steam my raw shellfish, the issue hasn't come up.

It's a VERY common practice when cooking mollusks. The belief is the ones that didn't open up were dead before cooking and might hold pathogens from decay.

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, every cooking show I saw in the past that covered shellfish said the same thing--don't eat the ones that don't open, and people have told me this in person too. It's an extremely common belief, as djr indicated. I'm guessing it's based more on fear than reality.

Now that I have the fermented cod liver oil I don't think I'll bother with those little wild clams any more anyway, which means no shellfish for me, because they are the only wild shellfish offered here.

[RawZi]

... I saw in the past that covered shellfish said the same thing--don't eat the ones that don't open, ... no shellfish for me, because they are the only wild shellfish offered here.

    Are there no oysters, scallops or mussels?  Healing value they're supposedly at least as good as wild.  The bivalve's nervous system is different than other animals, oysters especially.  When stressed in an oyster bed far they make dopamine which can be helpful to people.  I've been avoiding scallops, as I don't get them myself in the water, and I read that formaldehyde is added to them to keep them fresh for market.

[PaleoPhil]

   Are there no oysters, scallops or mussels?  Healing value they're supposedly at least as good as wild.  The bivalve's nervous system is different than other animals, oysters especially.  When stressed in an oyster bed far they make dopamine which can be helpful to people.  I've been avoiding scallops, as I don't get them myself in the water, and I read that formaldehyde is added to them to keep them fresh for market.

I've never seen raw, fresh oysters for sale anywhere here. The only mussels are farmed mussels and I don't know what they're fed. I'm skeptical of any claims that farmed seafood is "at least as good as wild," just as I'm skeptical that conventional beef is at least as good as 100% grass-fed or that cooked meats are just as good as raw--all claims that are frequently made but which my experience and research doesn't seem to support. I also can't see myself paying high prices (much of the weight you're paying for with shellfish is the shells--so the cost of the actual meat is much more than the listed price/lb) for seafood that is fed crap. If I'm going to pay a lot, I want to get top quality. Plus, some types of fish farming are damaging to the environment (though I haven't heard that re" mussels).

Does anyone know the vitamin D levels of farmed mussels or wild scallops? Nutritiondata just has a "missing or incomplete" listing for that nutrient for both. If farmed mussels have significant vitamin D and I get ambitious maybe I'll ask the market what the source of the mussels is so I can try to contact them and find out what they feed them and whether it's an environmentally-friendly operation.

I'm not fond of the taste of scallops, but if wild ones have significant vitamin D I'll try them in case they taste better than farmed.

[cherimoya_kid]

Farmed bivalves eat the same diet as wild ones. 

Most scallops are treated with sodium metabisulfite, NOT FORMALDEHYDE. LOL

However, you can get the untreated ones from Whole Foods stores, and probably from some fishmongers.   I eat about 2/5 of a pound of scallops every day, and they keep me calm, and keep my teeth in good shape.  I have noticed that my teeth feel noticeably better when I eat the untreated scallops, than when I eat the treated ones.  That sodium metabisulfite must mess with mineral uptake or something. I don't know.

[TylerDurden]

I've never seen raw, fresh oysters for sale anywhere here. The only mussels are farmed mussels and I don't know what they're fed. I'm skeptical of any claims that farmed seafood is "at least as good as wild," just as I'm skeptical that conventional beef is at least as good as 100% grass-fed or that cooked meats are just as good as raw--all claims that are frequently made but which my experience and research doesn't seem to support. I also can't see myself paying high prices (much of the weight you're paying for with shellfish is the shells--so the cost of the actual meat is much more than the listed price/lb) for seafood that is fed crap. If I'm going to pay a lot, I want to get top quality. Plus, some types of fish farming are damaging to the environment (though I haven't heard that re" mussels).

Cherimoya is correct, farmed bivalves merely filter nutrients from the surroundind ocean-water so it's probably not much different between farmed and wild. That said, I'm sure location is everything, and wildcaught shellfish in far-out(less polluted?) waters would be more nutritious than any farmed shellfish within caged, polluted  areas or whatever.

My own personal experience has been mixed. The raw shellfish, including oysters and mussels, I get from 1 specific fishmonger's at a farmers' market are always of incredibly high quality whereas the mussels I get from supermarkets and other fishmongers are often much smaller and less tasty|(and the shells of the latter mussels was always very thin and broke easily). The fishmonger I mainly buy from said that this was because he practised ethical fishing(ie he refused to  fish outside the correct harvesting season for those creatures, so that that was why the size of his oysters etc. was far larger).

Does anyone know the vitamin D levels of farmed mussels or wild scallops? Nutritiondata just has a "missing or incomplete" listing for that nutrient for both. If farmed mussels have significant vitamin D and I get ambitious maybe I'll ask the market what the source of the mussels is so I can try to contact them and find out what they feed them and whether it's an environmentally-friendly operation.

Have you checked the usda nutrient database, it's great as, unlike other sites,they have checked the nutrient-profiles of some raw wild game as well as the usual grainfed meat crap.

I'm not fond of the taste of scallops, but if wild ones have significant vitamin D I'll try them in case they taste better than farmed.

The raw scallops I've gotten in the past from numerous sources have always been free of chemicals(well, outside the supermarkets, that is). I'm particularly sensitive to any chemicals found in raw seafood, so I'm sure I would notice if there had been.

Interesting to hear about this steaming issue with bivalves. I'd never heard of it before, I suppose because my family didn't usually cook shellfish at home and would routinely enthuse about the superior benefits of raw oysters over cooked - the only rule I ever heard of was the one about never eating raw shellfish during months with an "r" in them.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for the info, folks. I checked the USDA nutrient database and it didn't have anything on raw mussels or scallops (just "Fast foods, scallops, breaded and fried"). I'll ask my local health food market about their mussels and scallops and probably give them a try.

Tyler, I think you mean the rule is avoid eating raw shellfish in months that do NOT have an "r." The FDA even restricted that rule of thumb further: "Fewer Months 'R' Safe for Eating Raw Gulf Oysters," http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=LSychFHSK2K0d0SNGZp319rlD0psSx9978yRTMWghWxzYk3VmS9Q!-1392827226!-755419558?docId=5002137981

[TylerDurden]

Tyler, I think you mean the rule is avoid eating raw shellfish in months that do NOT have an "r." The FDA even restricted that rule of thumb further: "Fewer Months 'R' Safe for Eating Raw Gulf Oysters," http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=LSychFHSK2K0d0SNGZp319rlD0psSx9978yRTMWghWxzYk3VmS9Q!-1392827226!-755419558?docId=5002137981

Yes, of course, that's what I meant(ie not eating during summer).

[RawZi]

Yes, of course, that's what I meant(ie not eating during summer).

    Does it depend on how cold or warm a climate you live in?  I distinctly remember eating live clams and live oysters in the heat of Summer, and by doing so, making a marked improvement in the state of the health of my body.

Farmed bivalves eat the same diet as wild ones. 

Most scallops are treated with sodium metabisulfite ...  I have noticed that my teeth feel noticeably better when I eat the untreated scallops, than when I eat the treated ones.  That sodium metabisulfite must mess with mineral uptake or something.

    Thank you.  How do you know when sodium metabisulfite is not used?  At the WFM by me (the only place I can find even remotely fresh fish) they seem to have no idea about anything.  Their (raw fresh not previously frozen) scallops always smelled bad to me, but when I ate them it did not affect my health adversely and seemed to be good for me.