Unavailable Grass-fed Meat

[whitebox84]

I'm in Dubai and it's almost impossible right now to find any grass-fed meat. The main issue here is that the climate is such that we import everything. And there is pretty much very low demand for anything organic, free-range, etc. Hopefully this will change in the next year (I've heard some extra shops are opening of this sort). What do I do until then? Stick with raw fish until better comes around? Do other people here eat solely raw fish?

BTW, as I started including steady raw fish into my otherwise raw vegan diet, my bowel movements went from once a day to 2-3 times. Pretty encouraging but why do you think this is occurring?

[raw]

  so far i know that Eskimos only eat raw fish most of the year... 

[Nation]

Call supermarkets and ask if they carry New Zealand lamb, it's grass fed. NZ lamb is sold around the world.

[TylerDurden]

You're in a difficult position. IMO, I once did a 100% raw seafood diet and a 90% raw seafood 10% raw vegetables(all foods wildcaught or organic) but neither experiment worked for me. I simply seemed to deteriorate to some extent, despite making sure in either case that I was eating a lot of raw, very fatty fish. Conversely, my feeling of well-being is even better if I regularly include at least 20% of my diet(40% max) in the form of raw, wild seafood.

Presumably you do have some other options. What about camel-flesh?  Of course, grass isn't likely in such an area, I suppose so only grainfed(?) camel-flesh might be available - in which case, you could supplement with the Blue Ice cod liver oil product(or preferably Mercola's Krill Oil as it's got even higher levels of omega-3s per gram). Another obvious alternative presents itself:- AFAIK, Dubai is the main connection-point for travellers to Iran from the Middle-East so that it should be a small matter to just hop on a plane once every fortnight/4 weeks to the nearest Iranian town/port across the Persian Gulf and search around for sources of raw, grassfed or wild meats over there - as long as you have a large enough freezer, things should be fine.

[livingthelife]

BTW, as I started including steady raw fish into my otherwise raw vegan diet, my bowel movements went from once a day to 2-3 times. Pretty encouraging but why do you think this is occurring?

Bowel movements do seem to change on this diet. It seems to depend on the person, what kind of raw primal diet they are eating, how much water, etc.

Many here have been constipated and raw paleo corrected it - that includes me. So perhaps you are becoming extra-not-constipated.     I was eating low-fat, but even a high-fat vegan diet does not contain the fats that are best for body function - "fats" are not all the same. So even if you were eating high-fat vegan, this will be a change for your body.

Obviously you don't want to poop undigested food (green chyme) or have diarrhea, so if that is happening then you are having a problem.

Believe it or not, there is a chart of poop here. Bless their hearts. I was constipated all my life and never knew it. I would have panicked at a normal bowel movement!

There is also some good info in our archives here about bowel movements.

Others will be able to help you too, this has been discussed several times.

[RawZi]

I'm in Dubai and it's almost impossible right now to find any grass-fed meat. The main issue here is that the climate is such that we import everything. And there is pretty much very low demand for anything organic, free-range, etc. Hopefully this will change in the next year (I've heard some extra shops are opening of this sort). What do I do until then? Stick with raw fish until better comes around? Do other people here eat solely raw fish?

    What someone else said about NZ lamb, that should be available.  I've even gotten it in WFM Union Sq NY, excellent quality not frozen. 

    I think everyone's needs are different from the next person, and can change even in that person.  As far as meats on my diet (primal diet), in the beginning coming from decades vegan, I was enjoying mostly fish, a wide variety of types.  Presently I don't even feel like touching fish for the most part, and when I eat a meat based meal I prefer land-based animal.

    You should be fine with fish as your only meat.  It's not forever anyway, I'm sure you'll source other meats eventually. 

    I was thinking about the extreme heat in Dubai.  I don't know about you, but for me personally sweet foods generally make it harder for me to tolerate hot weather, while (raw) animal even help me tolerate very hot weather better.  One of the fats that works best for me is cultured raw grass grazed butter, even if it has been frozen.  I don't know if you can get it there.  Is it particularly fatty type fishes you're getting?  I find frozen bison back/hide fat to work well too.  I guess camels have nice fat in their humps.
 

BTW, as I started including steady raw fish into my otherwise raw vegan diet, my bowel movements went from once a day to 2-3 times. Pretty encouraging but why do you think this is occurring?

    On raw vegan Living Food LifestyleTM, my food went out pretty much the way it went in. On semicooked paleo I guess it was like everyone else.  On fruit alone for weeks it varied from somewhat normal to very constipated.  On 'healthy' vegan cooked food I went from pretty good to the worst stool you couldn't even imagine.  On all raw RVAF my stools are the best.  I think the stools are better because the colon muscles are working better. 

    Can you get pasture grazed eggs over there?  What about unheated honey?  What kind of fruits are you eating?  What kind of fresh vegetables are available over there.  I read all the forums.  Are your berries frozen?  Organic?     

[whitebox84]

I'll check on the NZ lamb and camel. Thanks guys.

[TylerDurden]

Hmm, my own experience showed that the more raw animal food I ate in a hot climate, the hotter I actually felt and the more I sweated. Raw zero carb was the most extreme example of this sort of thing.

[whitebox84]

I found NZ lamb at the local grocery store. It's all of the leg variety. They have Australian as well...

Would I do well to eat a lot of NZ leg lamb?

[wodgina]

Hmm, my own experience showed that the more raw animal food I ate in a hot climate, the hotter I actually felt and the more I sweated. Raw zero carb was the most extreme example of this sort of thing.

My experience is the opposite.

[wodgina]

I found NZ lamb at the local grocery store. It's all of the leg variety. They have Australian as well...

Would I do well to eat a lot of NZ leg lamb?

Get the lamb, it's grain finished but they live good lives free range until a few months before they are slaughtered, don't get too caught up in details. It's million times better than SAD and there's plenty of fat on it.

I've eaten the same lamb you get over there, tastes great and never been sick from it.

[Michael]

I was going to mention that, AFAIK, the commercially available New Zealand lamb isn't wholly grass-fed.  It's certainly grain finished which does impact the omega 3/6 ratio of the meat more than one might expect.  But, I'd agree with Andrew's comments -

don't get too caught up in details. It's million times better than SAD

It may still be worth supplementing with Blue Ice cod liver oil if available to help with the grain-fed aspect.

Alternatively, if circumstances allow, I'd seriously consider moving to a country where healthy grass-raised animals are available.  Of course, this may involve detrimental tax consequences! 

[Nation]

How do you know NZ lamb is grain finished?  All the articles i've read on NZ lamb didn't mention that.

[whitebox84]

It's quite a big piece of meat. By buying that and chewing on it in pieces will be a rather bold move for me. I'm rather hesitant.

[Michael]

I read about the grain feeding of NZ lamb when I was struggling to find grass-fed meat myself and was considering it as a source.  I will try to dig out a source of this information.  As Andrew said, it is primarily grass-fed but I think the New Zealand food export industry strongly promotes it's meat & dairy produce across the world by relying on a perceived 'image' of happy cows eating nothing but lush green pasture.  A certain degree of this is conjured in people's imaginations.  It's called marketing.

[Michael]

Whitebox - Are you proposing to literally tear chunks off of this large piece of meat with your bare teeth?!  If you're new to consumption of raw meat, may I suggest eating it 'carpaccio' style or freshly ground using a home mincer.  It's important, psychologically at least, that you make it a palatable experience rather than a reluctant exertion.

[whitebox84]

Oh, no. I was thinking of putting the whole thing in a bug tupperware and from day to day cutting off a piece and eating that. Good idea regarding the mincer.

[RawZi]

    I've never bought a whole leg of lamb, but this is the best way I can imagine to do it:

Have the butcher saw through the bone into one or two inche slices. 
Get a sharp knife and cut the meat (which will be fibrous due to its location).
Put the meat in glass jars in the fridge.
Let the bone pieces sit out about an hour.
Push the marrow out of the bone segments and put them in a glass jar in the fridge.
Either dispose of the bones, give them to dogs or freeze them for long boiled nourishing stock.

    I think this would make best use of the leg.

[RawZi]

It's quite a big piece of meat. By buying that and chewing on it in pieces will be a rather bold move for me. I'm rather hesitant.

    Raw meat protein gives energy.  You might want to eat your first meat meals midday rather than evenings.  You can make it into habra naya or something else interesting to start.  Also, I do better if I eat plain (raw) fat first to satiety, then only eat a little meat.  You can blend the fat to make sauces too.   Aajonus has his book Recipe For Living Without Disease available to read online for ways to prepare the food.  This book may help you a lot, especially since it's faster to receive it than ordering the physical book from another continent.  It may be published in Thai though too and shipped from Thailand, IDK but I doubt you speak Thai.  Even AV has distaste for meat sometimes, so recipes can come in handy when you'd prefer something more appetizing, or that's what other people do.  I pretty much eat plain, oftentimes with a little unheated honey on it to keep healthier internal microorganism balance.

How do you know NZ lamb is grain finished?  All the articles i've read on NZ lamb didn't mention that.

I read about the grain feeding of NZ lamb when I was struggling to find grass-fed meat myself and was considering it as a source.  I will try to dig out a source of this information.  As Andrew said, it is primarily grass-fed but

    They grass graze them because that is right.  They grainfeed in the end because it's unnatural for man to kill them in their prime of life.  We kill them in their prime; because we (the typical commercial producers) want to get their lives over with fast; because we're not intouch with them or ourselves.  Paleo man would be more likely to eat the old ones that have grown healthy fat layers over many years of life lived.  We (humans these days) try unconsiously to mimmick that by fattening with grain.  The marbelization from grainfeeding makes the meat juicier for cooking, something totally unnecessary for us here on this forum IMO.

edit: (my browser crashed because malicious add-on?) eating grain might make sense for some animals.  i read cows have a hard time converting fresh grass carotene into vitamin A in their bodies, and may get "carotene poisoning" similar to the way some people have from eating too many fresh greens. I think sheep would not get this problem and would do better on greens, like goats do.

[Michael]

They grainfeed in the end because it's unnatural for man to kill them in their prime of life.  We kill them in their prime; because we (the typical commercial producers) want to get their lives over with fast

A relevant point eloquently made RawZi.  

Modern man grain feeds primarily for reasons of greed and financial gain.  An optimistic perspective may also consider the need to provide affordable meat for a growing population.  Livestock production, like any other business, is all about turnover for the commercial producers and, it appears, that they use whatever means are available for producing 'finished' (ie fattened) meat.  The disastrous consequences of these practices are only now becoming evident - it's effect on the welfare and short lives of the animals, the ecological impact in terms of land use, deforestation and water resources for feed production, the degenerative health of the 'predators' of these animals etc.  Naturally reared, grass-fed meat provides a great improvement if not a solution to the correct feeding of man's growing populace.

[alphagruis]

A relevant point eloquently made RawZi.  

Modern man grain feeds primarily for reasons of greed and financial gain.  An optimistic perspective may also consider the need to provide affordable meat for a growing population.  Livestock production, like any other business, is all about turnover for the commercial producers and, it appears, that they use whatever means are available for producing 'finished' (ie fattened) meat.  The disastrous consequences of these practices are only now becoming evident - it's effect on the welfare and short lives of the animals, the ecological impact in terms of land use, deforestation and water resources for feed production, the degenerative health of the 'predators' of these animals etc.  Naturally reared, grass-fed meat provides a great improvement if not a solution to the correct feeding of man's growing populace.

Grain feeding has IMO also absolutely no future in terms of energy input. One needs approximately one barrel of oil to fatten one animal (beef). Grain-fed meat is essentially oil. Grass-fed meat is essentially solar energy.

Grain feeding is definitely unsustainable.

[Michael]

Grain feeding has IMO also absolutely no future in terms of energy input. One needs approximately one barrel of oil to fatten one animal (beef). Grain-fed meat is essentially oil. Grass-fed meat is essentially solar energy.

Grain feeding is definitely unsustainable.

My sentiments precisely alphagruis.  With continuation and expansion of mass grain-feeding there can be no future.  I would add to your comments, however, that grass-fed meat does of course require it's own input of resources and can only be described as an improvement rather than a solution for what is essentially an unsupportable population, as I mentioned.  The only solution is a drastic reduction in global population IMO.  But, I don't think we need to concern ourselves with developing strategies for achieving this.  Lovelock's Gaia theory will see to it!

[yon yonson]

michael, i definitely agree with everything you just said minus the last two sentences. while it's true that the Earth will probably regulate human population at some point in the future, but i think it's dangerous to suggest that we should not concern ourselves with finding a way to reduce our population sooner. i won't get in to my personal views on how we should go about this, but i just wanted to point that out. leaving it up to 'nature'  just tells people to ignore the problem at hand.

[alphagruis]

Michael

I agree heartedly  and I'm happy to see that I'm not the only one to think this way. So many people become angry and hostile when one even just mentions this "hot" issue.

yon yonson

I agree that it would certainly have been suitable to find a way to control our own biomass. Yet, no species has ever successfully done something like that, voluntarily. The regulation usually takes place by a shortage in food or predators or other ways found by Nature (or Gaia).
Admittedly we are a very "special" species with a big brain. However, IMO it's unfortunately too late yet and at any rate it's quite uncertain that we ever had the capabilities to succeed.  

[Michael]

Alphagruis, although in a minority I'm glad to say that we're not the only ones to think this way.  I was discussing the same topic last year with one of my university lecturers who has a doctorate in biological sciences.  I'm studying biosciences at the University of East Anglia (as a mature student!) which is one of, if not THE, leading university in the world in environmental sciences.  She has the same view.

Of course, it is a contentious issue yon and your concerns are greatly shared.  Many suspect world governments are already doing much to reduce population via methods of control with some conspiracists expanding those thoughts even further!  I have to agree with alphagruis.  Despite the media clamour and the constant focus on these matters in the media it's likely already too late.  The wonderful living, breathing organism called Gaia will self-regulate as it always has done.

Incidentally, I would be interested to hear your personal views on how we should go about reducing population to sustainable levels.