Unavailable Grass-fed Meat

[whitebox84]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I appreciate it.

[livingthelife]

there are some in that community (e.g. 30 bananas a day ning community) who seem to thrive

"Seem to" is my gut reaction here.

There are nutrients that are not available in a vegan diet. Such as vitamin B-12.

I'm sorry to say this, but my impression is one of addiction. There is a lot of drug "speak" and sexual innuendo. Not well-grounded. Not serious, mature, or powerful. Not calm.

The body image supported there is greatly distorted. Abnormalities in health are considered inconsequential and even embraced. This is the very definition of an eating disorder.

[cherimoya_kid]

Let me tell you a little something about bananas. 

30 bananas a day is only possible when the bananas are of low nutritional quality.  When they are grown on good soil and have high nutrient content, the taste change comes much faster, and you can't eat more than 1/3 of that amount daily, or less.  It doesn't work. 

I get burro bananas and quadrato bananas at my local international market.  I have eaten them in Costa Rica quite a bit as well, ripe, right off the banana plant, grown on rich volcanic soil.  You simply cannot compare them to even the organic bananas that you can get from Ecuador.  The taste is totally different.  It's much richer, more complex, with sour notes and other subtle flavors.  The taste change comes much faster, and that's just how it is.

I used to eat 50 (fifty, not a typo) of the conventional grocery store bananas a day.  It was very easy.  I was only able to eat 30 of the Ecuadorean organic bananas daily, since the taste change was much faster.  I can only eat about maybe 1/4 of that of the burro/quadrato bananas.  The taste change is much faster and more extreme.   

[whitebox84]

Fascinating. I'm only half-steeped in that instincto principle, however I understand it sufficiently enough to follow your point.

[ys]

whitebox84, i'm guessing you are active participant on 30bad forum, well it is good you are questioning frutarian dogma.  

have you notice most of their active users are young people in their 20s and 30s?  most of them never had any health issues to begin with.  have you read numerous reports where women stop having periods on 811 diet?  do you think this is normal?  i think not.

there are few older people there but they look pretty sickly, very thin and frail.

most healthy people in their 20s-30s can eat pretty much any crap and feel OK.  it takes years of abuse like that for health problems to appear.

try doing a heavy workout and see how quick you recover eating only fruits.
then compare it with meats and fats.
i'm sure you'll see a difference.

[PaleoPhil]

If someone is a consistent or pathological liar, like was implied about one diet guru (which I don't know enough to comment about), then it would be extremely difficult and risky to learn anything from them, although one theoretically could still use one of their tips that seemed promising as just a starting point and cross-check it with a reliable source. However, if I became convinced that someone was a consistent liar I wouldn't bother reading any more of their material anyway.

Most diet proponents lie somewhere in between pathological liar and purely honest angel on the truthiness scale and somewhere in between ignoramous and encyclopedia on the knowledge scale. Few are wrong 100% of the time. It's actually difficult to be 100% wrong even if you're trying. Most, if not all, people are wrong some of the time, so I tend to check multiple sources on anything important.

[cherimoya_kid]

If someone is a consistent or pathological liar, like was implied about one diet guru (which I don't know enough to comment about), then it would be extremely difficult and risky to learn anything from them, although one theoretically could still use one of their tips that seemed promising as just a starting point and cross-check it with a reliable source. However, if I became convinced that someone was a consistent liar I wouldn't bother reading any more of their material anyway.

Most diet proponents lie somewhere in between pathological liar and purely honest angel on the truthiness scale and somewhere in between ignoramous and encyclopedia on the knowledge scale. Few are wrong 100% of the time. It's actually difficult to be 100% wrong even if you're trying. Most, if not all, people are wrong some of the time, so I tend to check multiple sources on anything important.

Doug takes lying to a whole other level.  Of course, all the raw vegan gurus are giant liars anyway, with few exceptions.  They all eat plenty of cooked food.  Ann Wigmore is a perfect example.  I'm not trying to be mean, because I think she's a nice lady, but there's NO WAY that Viktoria Boutenko is that fat eating raw vegan.  There's just no way.  I've seen her weight yo-yo up and down for years, and the last time I saw her, she had to be well over 200 pounds, and she's only about 5'5".  She was quite obese. People just need to be honest.

I really don't like to say bad things about people, but, when you're wrong, you're wrong.  There's got to be some clarity, and I really don't appreciate being lied to.  I'm also not a big fan of ignorance.

[RawZi]

Of course, all the raw vegan gurus are giant liars anyway, with few exceptions.  They all eat plenty of cooked food.  Ann Wigmore is a perfect example...  I'm also not a big fan of ignorance.

    I have spent time day after day directly with Ann Wigmore herself.  I'm not saying her way was right or wrong, but I am witness she prepared and ate what she taught.  I liked her.  Maybe some can come to me and say they know someone who witnessed otherwise to them.  I only know what I know.

[PaleoPhil]

Doug takes lying to a whole other level.  Of course, all the raw vegan gurus are giant liars anyway, with few exceptions. ...

Perhaps the Graham example was a bit extreme, since I doubt I would read a vegan's books anyway at this point in my journey (given my past bad experiences with vegetarianism and what I've learned from research) and there have been enough bad stories about the 811 diet here to make sure most people with sense will steer clear of it, I think, but since some people are more skeptical of the pro-meat crowd I thought it only fair to mention some pro-veg folks. The example was intentionally extreme to make a point: I think it is possible to learn even from one's mortal enemies and from the Devil himself (if there were actually a devil ). This happens very rarely, but it can happen. Sometimes the lesson may be the opposite of what the wrongheaded guru wanted to convey (such as the poor health and appearance of many raw vegan/fruitarian advocates revealing their basic dietary views to be nonsense). So I think it is possible to shut out alternative views too much and give oneself tunnel vision, in addition to the possibility of naively giving too much credence and using too little skepticism re: gurus like Taubes and Ornish. The balance that has worked for me lies somewhere in between those extremes.

[cherimoya_kid]

    I have spent time day after day directly with Ann Wigmore herself.  I'm not saying her way was right or wrong, but I am witness she prepared and ate what she taught.  I liked her.  Maybe some can come to me and say they know someone who witnessed otherwise to them.  I only know what I know.

I'm not saying Ann, or any other guru, didn't eat SOME raw food.  However, I have heard several reports that, when she stayed with someone as a guest, she would eat a breakfast of fruit, and then go on a walk, stop at a restaurant, and have a big meal of cooked bacon, eggs, etc.  I'm not saying that makes her the Devil, just that, like pretty much all the other raw gurus, she was eating cooked, and regularly. Just a fact.

[RawZi]

    What do you mean by several "reports"?  Who were these reporters?  I don't know that I accept it as a fact.  I did not see her eat those things.  I saw her soaking and peeling almonds.  I saw her own sprouts, sprout container etc.  I saw her blending energy soup ingredients.  I saw her making and drinking her famous pink "champagne" and almond "milk".  I saw her walk through fruit fields.  I walked with her barefoot outdoors every morning.  I saw her feed her dog raw food (with raw chicken).  I spent enough time with her consistently that I know proof positive that she ate more than SOME raw food.  I can also be a good judge of character, and I looked in her eyes when she talked to me alone etc.  Does your reporter have that close experience?  She was accustomed to getting lots of amino acids and lots of fatty acids by the way she skillfully prepared her food.  Could be your friend was an 8-1-1er trying to force her to become frutarian.  Ever think of that?

[cherimoya_kid]

    What do you mean by several "reports"?  Who were these reporters?  I don't know that I accept it as a fact.  I did not see her eat those things.  I saw her soaking and peeling almonds.  I saw her own sprouts, sprout container etc.  I saw her blending energy soup ingredients.  I saw her making and drinking her famous pink "champagne" and almond "milk".  I saw her walk through fruit fields.  I walked with her barefoot outdoors every morning.  I saw her feed her dog raw food (with raw chicken).  I spent enough time with her consistently that I know proof positive that she ate more than SOME raw food.  I can also be a good judge of character, and I looked in her eyes when she talked to me alone etc.  Does your reporter have that close experience?  She was accustomed to getting lots of amino acids and lots of fatty acids by the way she skillfully prepared her food.  Could be your friend was an 8-1-1er trying to force her to become frutarian.  Ever think of that?

I'd like to believe that all the raw food gurus are telling the truth about being 100% raw.  However, almost none of them really are.  I seriously doubt Ann would have survived to age 84 in great health, as she did, without eating animal products regularly.  It's not a big deal to me, either way, I'm just saying that, seeing as how the rest of them lie, and seeing how Ann was in such good health to such an old age, it's not hard to believe that she was eating some animal products regularly.  Let's put it this way: you believe what you want.  Don't assault me over it, though.  There's no point in getting worked up.

[RawZi]

... seeing how Ann was in such good health to such an old age, it's not hard to believe that she was eating some animal products regularly.  Let's put it this way: you believe what you want.  Don't assault me over it, though.  There's no point in getting worked up.

    Truth is that although her dLiving Food LifestyleTM wasn't ideal, it was a thousand times more nutritious than 8/1/1.  I know.  I've done a bunch of diets.  I don't mean it as assault to you.  I'm sorry if it's coming off that way.  I want truth, especially where I have experience. 

[whitebox84]

RawZi, I appreciate your sharing firsthand experience on the matter. Highly insightful.

[whitebox84]

Would, for example, eating 10-15 bananas a day constitute a harmful act to a diet? I've noticed that eating multiple mangos causes bloating/distension. In fact, I suspect it contributed to me losing my flat tummy and gaining a small belly which is now difficult to get rid of. I ate about 600 grams of raw fish today which demonstrates my diet is more raw omnivore (or paleo) than it is raw vegan. I could easily eat a pound of salmon in one go, it's absolutely delicious. Tuna not so much, though it has a refreshing and grounding feeling to it. I have 1-2 raw eggs per day as well.

[PaleoPhil]

<<Quote from: RawZi on Yesterday at 10:32:14 PM
    What do you mean by several "reports"?  Who were these reporters?  I don't know that I accept it as a fact.  I did not see her eat those things.  I saw her soaking and peeling almonds. >>

... you believe what you want.  Don't assault me over it, though.  There's no point in getting worked up.

Cherimoya, I didn't see RawZi's questions as an assault on you, I thought they were reasonable questions. If hearsay is going to be put forward as evidence, it should at least include the sources of the hearsay so we can investigate them. If the sources can't be provided then they should not be offered as evidence. Unsupported hearsay is not regarded as evidence in journalism, law or science, whereas RawZi's firsthand experience is. And I say this as someone who is also skeptical of many of the claims of raw vegans.

[RawZi]

    Thank you for filling us in on what you're eating, and how you're managing there being unavailable grassfed meat.  Are you finding certain times what you like better than others to eat the fish and eggs?

    When my son was at least two he started avoiding bananas.  Like any other child he still liked all other fruit (and does today).  Then when we were in the tropics, during mango season, he had to swear off mangoes.  We weren't always 100% raw, but we were for a good part of that time.  Being 100% raw, mangoes messed with his digestion too much.  So he actually chose to eat a good deal of bananas every day when we lived on "Mango Road", as bananas were easy to get even though the only sweet fruit ripe everywhere around on trees and falling off them was mango. 

    For my first five months on RGJAF (raw green juice and animal food), salmon was my best flesh food.  I never liked meat much at all, but salmon did taste good.  My body was loving salmon (although I did vary my flesh foods and the other ones felt good).  Not now though.  My body is prefering terrestrial animal meat.  It feels like I've gotten enough of the nutrients salmon provide to fill my stores, the types of fat in particular.

... bananas a day constitute a harmful act to a diet? I've noticed that eating multiple mangos causes bloating/distension. In fact, I suspect it contributed to me losing my flat tummy and gaining a small belly which is now difficult to get rid of. I ate about 600 grams of raw fish today which demonstrates my diet is more raw omnivore (or paleo) than it is raw vegan. I could easily eat a pound of salmon in one go, it's absolutely delicious. ...

[whitebox84]

Are you finding certain times what you like better than others to eat the fish and eggs?

Sorry, RawZi, can you clarify this part or rephrase? I'm unsure what you are asking. Thanks

[RawZi]

Sorry, RawZi, can you clarify this part or rephrase? I'm unsure what you are asking. Thanks

    Before or after work outs?  All day long?  First thing in the morning?  Combined with fruits?  I am curious to your eating schedule, as far as what works for you?  I'm just curious.  I hope you don't mind.  Thanks.

    Oh I see.  I meant to write "THAT" you like better, not "what" you like better.

[whitebox84]

I love to have the salmon for lunch but that's probably arbitrary. It would sure be nice to have it after a workout as well. It definitely becomes a more expensive day if I were to eat it three times throughout, though I could afford to. I suppose the jury is still out in my mind regarding diets. I'm studying the material and testing things out. Eating close to a pound of greens per day, including 100-150 grams of Spinach (or dark green leaf) seems indispensible to ensuring I feel good. I have the raw egg in the morning but I'm going to start increasing intake of them to probably 2-4 in a day and see how that goes. I think combining them into a smoothie which has bananas in them (and hence sugar) causes indigestion...just like how 811'ers aren't supposed to add nuts or avocados, anything with high-fat, into sugar meals. Of course, my diet is not 811 anymore, it's something of a Frankenstein at this stage.

[RawZi]

    Have you tried unheated honey?  I know some paleo members, the ZC'ers in particular have concerns and have not tried honey, or maybe they actually had a bad experience, Idk, but I find unheated honey combined with any food works well. 

... Eating close to a pound of greens per day, including 100-150 grams of Spinach (or dark green leaf) seems indispensible to ensuring I feel good. I have the raw egg in the morning but I'm going to start increasing intake of them to probably 2-4 in a day and see how that goes. I think combining them into a smoothie which has bananas in them (and hence sugar) causes indigestion...just like how 811'ers aren't supposed to add nuts or avocados, anything with high-fat, into sugar meals. ...

 

    I know instincto has its points, but I've eaten (raw) goat butter combined with banana or other times (raw) egg combined with orange wedges in a meal with no stomach upset.  By smoothie, do you mean with greens in it?  You may tolerate them, I know many rawists claim it's like a (wonderful) drug high.  If you don't do them, forgive me for getting OT.  Drinking a small portion of a regular green smoothie made me terribly stopped up.  Then I read all these rawists who had been vegan, then started to add an egg to their smoothie and swear by it.  I finally tried that one, and the first and only also upset my intestine.  Just sharing my experience, hopefully it might save you some grief.

[whitebox84]

I'll try the egg in the smoothe tomorrow. I've done it a few times in the last month and I was reluctant to continue, especially since it's easy to have the egg by itself anyway (30 or so minutes after the smoothie). Now that my digestion is used to raw fish on a daily basis I think it'll be less fussy about food combinations compared to when I was on fruit and green leaf alone. Thanks for sharing, buddy.

[RawZi]

    To be clear, energy soup which has some similarity to green smoothie but is made with sprouts and either rejuvelac or watermelon rind does not bother my body.  Also, when I did try green smoothie, I had already been an RAFer for two and a half years.  I have drank raw green soups before (no sweet fruit and instead of water or rejuvelac use peeled raw tomato) with no ill effect to my system. 

    By smoothie, do you mean with greens in it?  You may tolerate them, I know many rawists claim it's like a (wonderful) drug high.  If you don't do them, forgive me for getting OT.  Drinking a small portion of a regular green smoothie made me terribly stopped up.  Then I read all these rawists who had been vegan, then started to add an egg to their smoothie and swear by it.  I finally tried that one, and the first and only also upset my intestine.

[PaleoPhil]

...just like how 811'ers aren't supposed to add nuts or avocados, anything with high-fat, into sugar meals. Of course, my diet is not 811 anymore, it's something of a Frankenstein at this stage.

The findings of 811 dieters that they often become deficient in fats and craving of them and need to up their intake of avocados or nuts matches my findings from research and my own experience, that fats are the most crucial and deficient of the three macronutrient categories in modern diets. It's important to eat the right kinds of fats (those fats most closely resembling fats found in the wild that are most bioavailable for humans and other primates--such as wild animal, fish and insect fats, with avocado and coconut fats being some of the better plant fats, but possibly less bioavailable than animal fats) and finding which of the more wild-type fats you can digest well and do well on.


RawZi, I am a ZC/Carnivore who has tried raw honey. For whatever reason it gives me an unpleasant burning sensation in my throat, and it causes small acne breakouts if I eat more than a tablespoon or so once in a great while. It does soothe my stomach as any sugar does in the short run, though it is extremely rare that I get stomach upsets any more. So at this point it is a rare "cheat" food for me. All carnivores except obligate and hyper carnivores eat some nonfaunal foods, so I allow myself raw honey or raw berries and other raw plant foods at times--usually at work or social occasions. It also helps to fit in a little. I'm not a 100% purist. My GI system is sufficiently healed and my immune system sufficiently calmed down that I can cheat occasionally without severe reactions. However, I do have to be careful to avoid rekindling old carb cravings.

[cherimoya_kid]

<<Quote from: RawZi on Yesterday at 10:32:14 PM
    What do you mean by several "reports"?  Who were these reporters?  I don't know that I accept it as a fact.  I did not see her eat those things.  I saw her soaking and peeling almonds. >>
Cherimoya, I didn't see RawZi's questions as an assault on you, I thought they were reasonable questions. If hearsay is going to be put forward as evidence, it should at least include the sources of the hearsay so we can investigate them. If the sources can't be provided then they should not be offered as evidence. Unsupported hearsay is not regarded as evidence in journalism, law or science, whereas RawZi's firsthand experience is. And I say this as someone who is also skeptical of many of the claims of raw vegans.

Ann Wigmore claimed to have been a strict vegan for decades.  I simply don't think she was, for 3 reasons

1.  Vegans aren't very healthy, long-term
2.  Lots/most raw food gurus eat cooked food and animal products regularly, and lie about it
3. Ann's health was excellent

I don't have to prove anything here.  The preponderance of the evidence is against her actually having been a strict vegan for decades.  It's not a big deal to me, but I will tear down lying raw gurus, and viciously.  I have a right.  These lies hurt my health.  This is a forum for what WORKS, not what sounds nice, or Godly, or holy, or spiritual, or any other thing.  

I'm about 99.9% sure that Ann Wigmore was a liar, and I'd bet everything in my bank account on that being fact, plus my next 30 paychecks.  I will suspend/ban anyone who attacks me for saying it.

I don't care if Doug Graham's sainted MOTHER posts here, I will say the truth about him.  I will not be gentle.  I shouldn't be.  A great way to expose lies is to expose the liars as liars. They need discrediting.  In my humble opinion, anyway.