Unavailable Grass-fed Meat

[ys]

Would, for example, eating 10-15 bananas a day constitute a harmful act to a diet?

15 medium bananas will give you about 400! grams of carbs, of which sugars are 210 grams.  That's half a pound of pure sugar! 

How can this be healthy?

[whitebox84]

Well, the odd thing to me is how we always utilize science and measurements when deciding whether something is harmful or not. It doesn't feel intuitive to look into the amount of sugar (with no mention of what kind of sugar) and conclude that it has to be harmful. Does eating 15 bananas in a day have a harmful effect on blood sugar? Does it causes energy highs and lows? Is it bad for you in combination with high fat intake or simply in and of itself? Right now all I get is contradictions depending on which camp you ask the questions to. That Steve Pavlina guy was testing his blood sugar throughout the 30 day vegan diet and it all played out normal. Of course, we could follow cherimoya's angry approach and point our fingers while shouting out "lies, liars and bastards!" but I'm rather relaxed and not interested in indulging in that type of behaviour.

[TylerDurden]

Well, it's natural for someone who's had life-threatening health-problems happen to them on a particular diet to go somewhat overly berserk at any claims that the relevant diet is healthy in some way. I have to admit that I myself was in a bit of a  powerful rage in my Primal-Diet phase when Aajonus and numerous Primal Dieters kept on insisting to me that it was physically impossible for anyone to be allergic to raw (grassfed) dairy. It took me a great while to accept, that, just possibly, some people might do OK or fine on raw dairy(I'm still sceptical, though, as, time and time again, people who've told me they do fine on it, eventually admit they do better without it).

That said, my own raw vegan/fruitarian experience was mildly beneficial, in my own case. The incredibly painful stomach-aches/digestive problems I had with cooked animal foods made me absolutely loathe the cooked-meat-diet gurus, for the most part,and turning raw vegan eliminated those issues. Plus, I lost weight(which had never once happened on a cooked-meat diet, however low-carb), and  some other minor issues disappeared or were alleviated simply because I wasn't consuming the vast amounts of heat-created toxins I'd had with diets involving lightly-cooked meats. Not that raw vegan/fruitarian diets were a lifesaver for me, I just did "less worse" on them than on cooked-meat diets.

So, despite my heavy scepticism, I therefore don't discount the possibility that some/few raw vegan/fruitarians might be OK re health. I've heard of gimmicks:- for example, there was that Iranian tribe which consumed a mostly vegan(mostly raw vegan?) which did not suffer from the usual issues Western vegans did(eg;- b12 deficiency etc.) because the vegetables were grown in manure, so that they effectively got their b12 from faeces. I'd imagine that they also consumed insects found on the plants, unlike Western vegans who just eat sterilised veg/fruit, which would help to counter deficiencies. Another point is that children raised on 100% Western vegan diets seem to do (universally?) extremely badly, whereas people who turn to raw vegan diets as adults are, at least, protected for a time, due to having built up reserves of various nutrients over the years on meat-heavy diets. And, then, of course, if someone supplemented extremely heavily with all sorts of supplements to counter any deficiencies(algae etc.), and ate lots of raw plant fat(eg:- avocado) to compensate for missing animal fat, that might offset some potential issues as well.

[RawZi]

Ann Wigmore claimed to have been a strict vegan for decades.  I simply don't think she was, for 3 reasons

1.  Vegans aren't very healthy, long-term
2.  Lots/most raw food gurus eat cooked food and animal products regularly, and lie about it
3. Ann's health was excellent

    I knew her differently.  She was not a Vegan around me, as she frequently made her "champagne" which she did use local honey to make, and she did not hide that.  She also fed her dog raw chicken and did not attempt to hide that (plenty of Vegans on GI2MR force their cats and dogs to eat only Vegan food).  Around me, the impression she gave was a striving to constantly evolve and at the time using plant products more and more to HOPEFULLY only use them, as (a possible) experiment.  For example, she allowed clay therapy when I first met her, but then decided that since clay is not a plant, to use plants instead for similar therapies.  Another example of non-Vegan is her permission to use Clorox in the laundry, as a true Vegan would not kill anything directly (even germs at least I tried not to).  I never noticed her fussing about insects either, not in any capacity.  Most Vegans and other "ethical" vegetarians that I've known make points to show they don't eat nor kill insects.  Insects just didn't bother her.  Believe me, there were tons of insects around.  Vegans in my experience are usually out to prove how lacking in culpability they are, think they love the planet better than the next guy and think they don't hurt any being that crawls etc unlike all of the rest of the humans in their judgement and that humans are evil unless they are Vegans.  They may act like the last three descriptions because of some unresolved issues in their souls, that it is possible they are unaware of.   

    Dr. Ann's health was better than mine (more muscle and better recovery time etc), but I came there recovering from illness.  IMO her face showed the ravages of Advanced Glycation End-Products from the years Vegan food she ate.  That is not a healthy sign.  I don't think it was from aging from before she went raw.  She went raw at age fifty, and no one has such a wrinkly ugly face at age fifty.  Her face was really ugly IMO.  I have relatives older than her that have better looking face.  They have never gone a day without cooked meat in their adult lives.  I think this shows that there were possibly other health problems inside her body that just were not visible to the eye.  She did like people to get tests done to prove their illnesses and recoveries, but I've never seen test results that were hers.  I am curious what it might have shown.

    Let's agree to disagree.  I knew a different person than you do, as far as her.  As far as the rest of the vegetarian and Vegan gurus, I have met a number of them.  Like I said, I can judge people pretty well.  Let's just say that I have a poor impression of most of the ones I met.  I don't like detailing negatives.  Thanks for understanding.

[PaleoPhil]

Well, the odd thing to me is how we always utilize science and measurements when deciding whether something is harmful or not. It doesn't feel intuitive to look into the amount of sugar (with no mention of what kind of sugar) and conclude that it has to be harmful. Does eating 15 bananas in a day have a harmful effect on blood sugar? Does it causes energy highs and lows? Is it bad for you in combination with high fat intake or simply in and of itself? Right now all I get is contradictions depending on which camp you ask the questions to. That Steve Pavlina guy was testing his blood sugar throughout the 30 day vegan diet and it all played out normal. Of course, we could follow cherimoya's angry approach and point our fingers while shouting out "lies, liars and bastards!" but I'm rather relaxed and not interested in indulging in that type of behaviour.

I love your questions, whitebox, and these got me thinking about bananas again, which I find to have a fascinating history. I'll start a new thread on them, because my post will be rather lengthy and off-topic for this thread.

[cherimoya_kid]

 

    Let's agree to disagree.  I knew a different person than you do, as far as her.  As far as the rest of the vegetarian and Vegan gurus, I have met a number of them.  Like I said, I can judge people pretty well.  Let's just say that I have a poor impression of most of the ones I met.  I don't like detailing negatives.  Thanks for understanding.

I'm certainly willing to ban you, if you'd like. I got banned from rawfoods.com message boards for talking about raw meat, and I'm faster on the banning than any mod here. Those two facts are going to work against you avoiding banning, I think.

I will ban the heck out of you.  Let me be most clear about that.  The vegans ban the meat-eaters from their message boards, and I will ban you.  

I don't care how you feel about Ann.  I care about the truth about healthy diet.  That won't change.

[yon yonson]

haha, what?

[PaleoPhil]

Wait a minute, I'm confused. Didn't Rawzi basically concede that Cherimoya was right about Wigmore not really being a vegan here:

She was not a Vegan around me...

?

So don't you two basically agree now?

[whitebox84]

cherimoya, could you list and describe your exact daily diet? I think it's important to make it public attention in case it's the cause of your having acquired sociopathic qualities.

Or you just have a special sense of humour.   

[cherimoya_kid]

Wait a minute, I'm confused. Didn't Rawzi basically concede that Cherimoya was right about Wigmore not really being a vegan here: ?

So don't you two basically agree now?

Whitebox thinks that using honey means that you're not a vegan.  Her definition of veganism is based on some combination of morality and emotion.  My definition of veganism includes honey.  Functionally speaking, in terms of diet, honey is a vegan food.  It doesn't have any of the nutritional factors that organ meats/fish/shelfish/roe do, that make eating animal products useful for health.  My diet is determined by what's healthy before what's morally correct. 

[cherimoya_kid]

cherimoya, could you list and describe your exact daily diet? I think it's important to make it public attention in case it's the cause of your having acquired sociopathic qualities.

Or you just have a special sense of humour.  

I'm a sociopath?  OK.  You're a non-member. 90 days from now, your ban will expire.  I hope you can bring more to the forum next time, should you choose to return. 

I really wasn't kidding.  I'm sad that I have to ban vegans so viciously in order to make it clear that I won't tolerate vegan propaganda.

[TylerDurden]

Umm, please remember that many of our raw-meat-eating members, myself included, do also eat raw honey(and raw veg) and they generally view them as beneficial  or at least not harmful in small to large quantities(depending on the relevant member).

[cherimoya_kid]

Oh, I do eat honeycomb sometimes, but I don't assume that should be anything other than a small part of my diet.  It doesn't have any fat-soluble vitamins, nor really any water-soluble ones either, that I know of.  It's also not very mineral-rich.  I can tell that it increases my tooth sensitivity very quickly, so I don't eat very much of it. 

[wodgina]

Have I missed something? Why are people being banned/threatened with banning?

[yon yonson]

Have I missed something? Why are people being banned/threatened with banning?

seriously! why the hell would you ban a former vegan who is turning to raw animal foods? i just don't get it. who cares if the guy was still skeptical of raf? he was obviously a smart guy. pretty much all of us were in his same shoes at some point on our transition from raw vegan to raw paleo. totally unnecessary in my opinion

[van]

have to agree with Yon.  Didn't see any problem with what he was saying,  I too pose my doubts to others to test the waters.  Otherwise it's just blind adherence. I can remember writing The Bear about how the Inuit ate fish and rib bones.  He wrote me back saying that I had mental disorders....  A lot of us have ruined our health following one diet or another, so for me it's a pretty healthy sign to be questioning what others are experiencing. 

[cherimoya_kid]

seriously! why the hell would you ban a former vegan who is turning to raw animal foods? i just don't get it. who cares if the guy was still skeptical of raf? he was obviously a smart guy. pretty much all of us were in his same shoes at some point on our transition from raw vegan to raw paleo. totally unnecessary in my opinion

This forum isn't for skeptics to talk about how smart the 30-bananas-a-day guys are.  It's also not an Ann Wigmore Memorial Forum, either.  It's a raw animal foods forum.

The truth is, I've been treated far, far worse on raw vegan forums than I treat the vegans here. 

It's not so much what whitebox84 said, as the direction she was going.  She was getting less and less respectful, and more openly disrespectful.  First she says that there are some imbalanced people here, then calls me a sociopath.  It was getting worse and worse, just like it did with SuperInfinity.  And guess what?  SuperInfinity is still posting.  I banned him for the 4th time yesterday, and TylerDurden deleted his thread.  These vegans don't stop.  You have to stop them.  We were too patient with SuperInfinity. 

The reality is that vegans are the biggest threat to this forum, in terms of spamming/trolling.  We have had a few commercial spammers, but they usually just post one or twice, and then go away.  The vegans appear to be more tenacious, and they are here specifically to insult/disrupt and spread propaganda.   

If you don't like the job I'm doing, I invite you to try moderating a forum, sometime.  Craig Bates quit, because it's not exactly fun.  Between the Satyas, SuperInfinitys, etc.. and the sheer volume of messages, it's quite a task, and I do it for free.  I don't make one thin dime off of this moderating work.  I do it because I want to teach and learn. I'm sorry if you don't like the job I'm doing for free.  People who call me a sociopath don't exactly end up on my good side. Free moderation shouldn't involve tolerating being called imbalanced or a sociopath. 

I wouldn't tolerate members calling each other those things.  Why should I tolerate a member calling a moderator that? Do I not deserve the same respect?

Besides, it's not even a permanent ban.  I feel about 90% certain that whitebox84 will not have learned anything after 3 months, and will probably come back even more disrespectful.  That will result in a longer ban, I promise.  It's just like when SuperInfinity started posting, I was recommending a ban from day one, and all the other mods were telling me to wait.  But guess what?  They got sick of him, too, and, just to prove me right, he is still trolling here, even now.

If the vegans back down, I might start going easier on them.  Not until then.  They have their forums where they don't tolerate RAF talk.  At least we allow the mention of veganism here.

[van]

I didn't see whitebox anywhere near as threatening as superinfinity.  I think what you might want to look at is the tone of your emails back and forth with her.  In my opinion, they were antagonizing.  I might of sounded of at you myself.    One really hast to look deeply in the conveyed tone of one's communications, and not just simply at parts of an email that could be interpreted as offensive.   
   I don't think vegans have a chance against this forum.  We all have too much experience to be even the slightest bit daunted.

[RawZi]

    Not to be disrespectful, especial as you may be calling them by the opposite genders as an intentional insult, which would be fine with me, but I remember Superinfinity posting that she was female.  I also remember whitebox signing his name as Amir, which has never been a female name but always a male name from anything I ever read.  Just in case you didn't know, from all that I could find, and I do investigate a lot, this Amir is living as a male, has always been a male and has not portrayed himself as a female.  I could be wrong about that though.

    Also, in case you thought different, I am not a vegan.  I eat raw ants, raw maggots, raw pork, raw lobster, raw brain, raw testicle, raw spleen, (raw) high meats, raw just about anything and plan to eat as much raw animal as I can for the rest of my life (without overeating as raw fat and good raw meat nutrients eliminate cravings).  Any children in my future will eat raw meat.  I discussed this with my husband who eats only vegan.  I was a member of GI2MR at the time.  I posted when he told me I could feed our children any way I want, and they all know I eat raw meat very well.  I never hid my diet.  After all, when I became a member there, their rules for the whole forum were written as a place for people who love to eat raw food.  It did not mention what kind.  I was looking for comradery among raw eaters, and did not know about raw paleo.  You know I'm not vegan, right?    

    I had actually written a much longer response, but I don't think I need to prove how not vegan I am.  And I fully agree with you on Superinfinity.  I'm not sure about Whitebox though, as he/she was saying he/she is getting needed healing results eating raw tuna steak and raw salmon and even enjoying the taste etc.  You could be right about whitebox too though.  I am not all knowing.  I only know what I sense in person.

    I want truth as much as you do.  I want health too. 

It's not so much what whitebox84 said, as the direction she was going.  She was getting less and less respectful, and more openly disrespectful.  First she says that there are some imbalanced people here, then calls me a sociopath.  It was getting worse and worse, just like it did with SuperInfinity.  And guess what?  SuperInfinity is still posting.  I banned him for the 4th time yesterday, and TylerDurden deleted his thread.  These vegans don't stop.  You have to stop them.  We were too patient with SuperInfinity. 

...  

... 

...

... It's just like when SuperInfinity started posting, I was recommending a ban from day one, and all the other mods were telling me to wait.  But guess what?  They got sick of him, too, and, just to prove me right, he is still trolling here, even now.

If the vegans back down, I might start going easier on them.  Not until then.  They have their forums where they don't tolerate RAF talk.  At least we allow the mention of veganism here.

[PaleoPhil]

   Not to be disrespectful, especial as you may be calling them by the opposite genders as an intentional insult, which would be fine with me, but I remember Superinfinity posting that she was female.  I also remember whitebox signing his name as Amir, ...

SuperInfinity was a man named Padraig. Amir is also a man.

Amir still seems to be leaning toward raw vegan, with some fish and eggs eaten as perhaps a compromise for health purposes, but if he decides to avoid grains, legumes, dairy, sugars and processed foods, he'd still technically qualify as an RPDer, although if he eats a ton of fruit like a dozen or so bananas in a day, that would make it somewhat of a distortion of RPD. At any rate, most of his posts were interesting and intelligent and he is one of the few raw vegans to question the 811-type vegan dogma and try some fish and eggs. It's up to the moderators to do as they wish, but is imitating the raw vegan forums by quickly banning people really the best way to go?

[RawZi]

SuperInfinity was a man named Padraig.

    A man attempted contacting me reference raw food.  His name is too similar to Padraig.  What kind of name is that?  Is that a real name?  Something he made up?  I found him very suspicious.  I'm curious if this is the same person.  Some how I thought SuperInfinity was a young man, then I thought they were a young woman.  In either case, they're a very weird individual, and not worth having here by any stretch of the imagination.

[PaleoPhil]

Padraig is SuperInfinity's real name, yes, which I used to refer to him as from time to time in past posts here, and he didn't seem to mind my using his name. It's Irish for Patrick, and a nice name, IMO. I don't want to share too much of his personal details without his permission, and I don't know much anyway. Suffice it to say I agree we are better off with him not posting here, but I don't think he intentionally means to be a troll--at least not at first. I think he basically is who he is through no fault of his own (but that doesn't mean we have to tolerate his behavior, of course).

I was curious as to whether he was ticking off the folks at the raw vegan forum he linked to, so I checked and found out he had already also got banned at that forum not long after he got banned here, and the main moderator there seems like a very tolerant, peaceful chap, so you can see why I think it's best if SI doesn't post here.

[RawZi]

I think he basically is who he is through no fault of his own...

... he had already also got banned at that forum not long after he got banned here, and the main moderator there seems like a very tolerant...

    Sad.  Probably such a pest due to so much fruit, and the tinned junk food.  Diet can affect brain chemistry.

[cherimoya_kid]

      Diet can affect brain chemistry.

Which is why I get so angry about veganism, particularly low-fat veganism.  The poor nutrition harms your brain, which makes it harder for you to make intelligent decisions, including decisions about nutrition. 

I feel like I totally have the right to ban anybody who doesn't bring something to the discussions here, and who also is getting in arguments with mods and members.  Whitebox84 wasn't bringing anything of great use, and was not being particularly respectful.  It would be different if he had years of experience with the diet, or if he was more respectful. 

Besides, it's a temporary ban.  I will say this, though...if he misbehaves when he comes back, it's going to make me a LOT more willing to quickly ban anyone who starts talking about veganism as if it were some kind of viable path. I don't have time for this crap. 

[TylerDurden]

   Sad.  Probably such a pest due to so much fruit, and the tinned junk food.  Diet can affect brain chemistry.

This is the classic "us" and "them" approach, which I tend to be uncomfortable with. I mean if we call other diet-followers retarded or overly aggressive or whatever , we just give others(eg:- whitebox) an excuse to (wrongly) call us savage/aggressive etc. for eating raw meat diets. People are too varied in character due to other non-dietary factors for us to categorise them in this way.