Black Shadows / Dark Circles / Eye Bagginess / Loss of skin tone under eyes

[MrBBQ]

Hey all,

I've been travelling a little, so I've only just managed to get myself together to start posting again...

Nevertheless, in the last couple of weeks (since I've been carefully low-carb 100% grass-fed RAF for a few months now), I've noticed an old visitor returning, which I haven't entertained since before my raw-vegan/cleansing/flushing days...black shadows/dark circles/eye bagginess/loss of skin tone under eyes...(it was one of the first things that subsided after transitioning away from a standard Western eating style).

My sleep follows circadian rhythms and I avoid stimulants or anything that may be bordering on toxic (I typically don't eat after 19:00 to allow the stomach to empty before sleep begins).

I could speculate a toxic/overworked liver (even though I've done plenty of liver/GB flushes), overtaxed kidneys, compromised endocrine glands, dirty or sticky blood - who knows?! Parasite activity? Overgrowth die-off?

Has anyone else experienced a re-emergence of this dark phenomena since progressing through high RAF? It seems counter-intuitive to healing, given that they subsided with raw-veganism and now they're returning.

Are there any adjustments that I could make (e.g. in ratios) that have been applicable for others, because at the moment, I look like I'm hungover with a poor night's sleep every day?!

Best,

MrBBQ

[TylerDurden]

I got the same black circles under my eyes, big time, on my weeks-long raw zero carb experiments, one reason, among many, why I had to give them up and go back to consuming a few raw  carbs. I've been told that black circles under the eyes is a symptom related to malfunctioning livers or kidneys. Since dehydration is also one possible cause, try drinking more water. If that doesn't work, then try adding in a few raw carbs.

[Michael]

I think your speculations would be similar to my own and others MrBBQ.  I suffered similar issues in my vegan days and I think it had a great deal to do with my liver and adrenal glands.

Personally, I don't recall re-experiencing these issues since eating a paleo diet but I did experience them whilst following an AV style primal diet in the early days.  Milk intolerance seemed to be a big factor.  Are you still consuming dairy products?

Alternatively, as you suggested, adjusting your ratios may be a good idea.  I was struggling since going VLC/ZC raw paleo but suddenly realised that I was consuming far too much meat and not enough fat.  I'm now following a similar regime to Lex in that I try to obtain 80-85% of calories from raw animal fat, keep protein to 80-90g per day and aim for around 2,200 calories per day.  It seems to be working a treat and instantly resolved any problems I was having with strain on digestion.  You may just be overtaxing your system.

[MrBBQ]

@Tyler/Michael: Thanks for the quick responses, which are greatly appreciated. ;-o

My raw-veganism did not contribute to this darkness phenomenon, but cleared it completely (to an extent that amazed me initially), so my playful interest is why it's returned while low-carb RAF (given that some pro-vegan schools continue to assert that animal food is suboptimal, regardless of its nutrition viability).

Hydration:
I'm reluctant to drink stagnant, bottled spring water and there's no local running spring nearby. I distill my tap water (effectively no total dissolved solids), which drips into a glass Bodum jar with a little sun-dried sea salt and a piece of wakame/kombu alongside some large quartz crystals. I then mix this water in a 1:5 ratio with a 1:1 mix of rawest-I-can-get coconut water/coconut milk, plus some trace mineral, elemental silicon and iodine drops. Ultimately, from what I've read, if you're ingesting water, it should be structured in nature's way (that is, very fresh from a running spring) and having a complement of ionic minerals, not dissolved rocks - humans cannot get their nutrition from ground/dissolved rocks (instead it's deposited in joints/organs). I don't own a water ioniser, so I can't ionise the water, hence I remove the dissolved rocks (TDS) and add my own ionic minerals while structuring with quartz crystals. The coconut water/milk is for the added electrolytes and a little natural sugar, which does not spike my BG in such a small quantity.

Nevertheless, I have been cycling to my office each day in the last few weeks and not being so vigilant about extra hydration, so maybe I could increase my fluids experimentally.

Also, on the matter of minerals, I have been experimenting with occasional bone broths, especially for winter nights, yet I realise that this kind of thermodynamic preparation must present some kind of toxic/oxidative load. Maybe its benefits counter its payload, but as someone once said "there's no pot boiling in nature" - wise words!

Does anyone have any advice on worthwhile hydration/mineralisation, rather than just delivering some kind of H2O? If I drink too much water, I'm constantly p*ssing like a mule...

That said, does anyone have commentary on the renal load of a primarily RAF diet, which I realise is a subject of debate (as is the pH balance saga)?

Carbs:
I eat berries everyday (they're pretty low in sugar) as well as the occasional mango or papaya, which I consider to be great sources of anti-oxidants (pigment-rich!) and often combine them with thick macadamia+hazelnut+pecan+brazil milk, home-juiced coconut cream or chocolate mouse (avocado blended with raw cocoa+carob+vanilla). I don't overdo fruit because I'm trying to heal my teeth. I shy away from blending any fruit because the sugars seem to become more free than when haphazardly masticating.

Do you know any other worthwhile carbs that I could incorporate? Does anyone include any amount of daily nuts for vitamins/minerals/anti-oxidants?

Hepatic Sufficiency:
I've already completed upwards of 20 liver flushes, all producing an array of toxic-smelling debris...I'm always working up to the next flush with different organic acids, herbs, tinctures etc. (these never caused eye bags - quite the opposite), so the liver is an ongoing endeavour until that organ is functioning optimally. I also recommend castor oil packs over the liver/GB, which stimulates lymph movement and promotes bile viscosity / deposit dissolution.

Endocrine/Ductless Glands:
I can't comment on the so-called ductless endocrine glands, but I like to think that I'm avoiding goitrogens, avoiding stimulants, ingesting enough iodine (drops+seaweed powders) and enjoying moderate adaptogens/tonics. If anyone has any interesting recommendations, I'd be glad to accept them!

Dairy:
I had been toying very moderately with raw goat's milk kefir, mainly for something to mix with my raw egg yolks (and some raw honey or something) and to exhaust the remnants of the last order (in my freezer). I've done that on and off before low-carb RAF, which never induced circles/shadows, but it's a good point and something that I quickly stopped when I noticed the onset.

Ratios:
I've just been eating proportions of fatty meat with my top brisket fat, although I've preferred to let my intuition/taste do the measurement. Typically, it's 200-300g meat and 150-200g fat per day. I think I looked on www.nutritiondata.com and noticed how little weight in meat is actually protein - it's more cholesterol than anything, which I never realised.

So, may I ask first - do you measure protein/fat ratios by calories or grams? How many grams of meat and corresponding fat do you eat each day? How many meals do you eat each day and during what time window?

I always wonder what capacity the liver/GB has to produce enough bile to emulsify/uptake all this fat, plus it (high-fat diet) must be a great emptier of these organs that're toxified on a constant basis. I was also thinking/wondering if anyone had ever used animal fat as the basis for doing a liver flush, instead of olive oil+lemon juice...(?)

Eating all of this fat each day must be like doing daily, medium-sized liver flushes, albeit without the biliary duct relaxation with Epsom Salts - very good aerobics for the entire biliary system (possibly one of the main reasons for healing on low-carb RAF - regular bile movement, rather than bile stagnation/crystallisation/deposition).

Also, how many RAFers notice greasy or floating BMs (representing diminished fat digestion)? (I could imagine that this subsides over time on a high-fat diet)

Anyways...

Skin Tone/Wrinkling
Did anyone notice major improvements in skin tone or diminished/repaired wrinkles over a short/long term? (particularly with liver/GB flushing to improve the organ function and maximise uptake of fat+fat-soluble nutrients)?

@Tyler: What're you doing for mineralisation along with your hydration?
@Michael: I remember in an old post that you were experimenting with broths, egg shell minerals and clays - are you still doing that?

I really appreciate the interesting ideas that you've mentioned, thanks. ;-)

[ys]

Thanks for starting this thread as I have dark things under my eyes as well.

I highly suspect sleep quality is a contributing factor.  Even after sleeping 10 hours I wake up like I've been working all night.  The body feels OK but the eyes feel really tired.  I think my sleep is not deep enough and my brain does not have enough time to rest.  My sleep is very light.

I really wish I did not have to go to work in the morning so I could get few hours of sleep more.

In my opinion liver should clean itself pretty quickly on high-fat diet rich in Vit A.  Liver is the only organ that can re-grow itself.  And liver can take huge punishments.  It takes decades of heavy abuse to bring a liver down.

In any case, I'm also very interested to know what works in this case.

[TylerDurden]

Hmm, I'd assumed that the poster's diet was raw zero carb but since it contains some raw carbs, it should be placed in the raw omnivore forum, which I'll do now.

[MrBBQ]

Food intolerance, particularly with dairy (as Tyler/Michael said) is often the cause of the darkness phenomena.

Gut dysbiosis can be a potent source of toxic metabolites, so that's a consideration. I personally notice that I still have a fermentative condition oftentimes with fruit+nuts, even with high RAF low-carb.

Some debris in the liver/gallbladder is too encrusted and too well-formed for any self-cleaning mechanism (after decades of bile stasis events due to poor lifestyle/nutrition). No amount of fat in the diet will dislodge those stones/deposits. Furthermore, some people that've had their gallbladder removed are only told that it was micro-crystalline sludge that was precipitating their pronounced symptoms. Maybe you could check out some pictures of gallstones to develop a visual feel, or try some flushing for a more kinesthetic feel - definitely something that further whitens the whites of the eyes and gives an awesome feeling of peace/wellbeing ('til more debris comes from the back of the liver and clogs things up again, just in time for the next flush!).

Anyone embarking on healing cannot truly heal (to the greatest extent) without completely emptying the liver/gallbladder/ducts, by means of non-invasive flushing. You can eat whatever optimal paleo food you like, which may have some impact, but the true healing therapeutic begins with the liver. A fully functioning liver means optimal bile output -> optimal peristalsis -> optimal detoxification channel -> clean biliary system -> clean blood -> clean inter-cellular fluid -> clean intra-cellular fluid -> optimal cellular metabolism -> vibrant health and improved anti-oxidant status (toxins typically steal electrons, so better out than in!).

Of course, nutritional excellence and a diverse, well-balanced internal ecosystem follows...Some people don't "seem" to need animal products after this, but that remains to be seen...Some breatharians assert that all essential nutrients can be manufactured by diverse gut flora and maybe they just need a little sugar from time to time, even possibly from urine recycling (shivambu shastra!).

Why does vitamin A / retinol have impact on the hygiene of the liver/gallbladder? In my research, vitamin A has no bearing on bile flow/viscosity, which is ultimately the substance of the "swamp" in that system, which needs to be cleaned and ideally, running like a river with no big rocks or pebbles to inhibit flow. Vitamin A is just a fat-soluble nutrient with lots of metabolic applications, but with no clear impact on bile flow.

The advantage with a high-fat diet is that it constantly requires bile movement, so there's less stagnation and possibly clearance of some of the smaller debris (although not necessarily the larger formations).

I used to drink a large cup of cold-brewed (toddy) coffee in a morning with frothy nut milk, which used to stimulate a nice contraction of the liver/gallbladder (almost like a coffee enema) due to the mild caffeine and a fair amount of nutty fats - I could guarantee that within twenty minutes, there would be a major peristaltic action and the contents of my guts, including a load of bile would be dumped (I always made sure I was on the toilet, naturally). Of course, that's why high-fat RAF diets are a facilitator of good bowel movements - because they stimulate regular, sizeable bile output, which ultimately stimulates peristalsis (hence no requirement for fibre).

On the matter of sleep, there are many factors. I never eat within 3 hours of going to bed. My room is completely dark. My upstairs electrical circuits are off at the circuit breaker - this makes an enormous difference, almost as if the room is more still/super-silent (without electrosmog from circuits, which is also perpetuated by the springs in the bed). Ideally, you'd like to stimulate melatonin production, which is the sleep neurotransmitter (only released fully without the presence of photons, hitting your retina!). Ideally, for human growth hormone to be released and facilitate cellular repair, you have to reach delta sleep and fluctuate between that and dream sleep (you need vitamin B6 for dream recall, so enough of that will allow you to remember dreams - eat your raw meat and maybe have a couple of spoons of fresh bee pollen before bed). Here's an interesting practice (hibernation/overnight diet): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c1lbfhPLeM (liver glycogen top-up with small raw honey intake for recovery physiology)

Another possibility would be to try herbs like valerian, passionflower, hops, chamomile etc., which invoke a nice, sleepy mood - nice to drink on the beach in the sun or before bed...I often drink a valerian+chamomile tea to diminish my awareness of the less-than-Zen contemporaries at work.

Of course, no stimulants (caffeine, theobromine/cocoa) or fast moving sugars as a minimum.

Following circadian rhythms (knowing your organs follow circadian rhythms as traditional/folkloric medicine asserts) is the best schedule in this age of artificial light and humming electrical circuits...

What about exercise for 0.5-1 hours in the evening?

[TylerDurden]

My raw-veganism did not contribute to this darkness phenomenon, but cleared it completely (to an extent that amazed me initially), so my playful interest is why it's returned while low-carb RAF (given that some pro-vegan schools continue to assert that animal food is suboptimal, regardless of its nutrition viability).

Well, I had black circles under my eyes in my raw vegan phase but they were far less pronounced than in my SAD-eating days or the raw zero-carb phases I went through. They're often a sign of allergies, incidentally.

Hydration:
I'm reluctant to drink stagnant, bottled spring water and there's no local running spring nearby. I distill my tap water (effectively no total dissolved solids), which drips into a glass Bodum jar with a little sun-dried sea salt and a piece of wakame/kombu alongside some large quartz crystals. I then mix this water in a 1:5 ratio with a 1:1 mix of rawest-I-can-get coconut water/coconut milk, plus some trace mineral, elemental silicon and iodine drops. Ultimately, from what I've read, if you're ingesting water, it should be structured in nature's way (that is, very fresh from a running spring) and having a complement of ionic minerals, not dissolved rocks - humans cannot get their nutrition from ground/dissolved rocks (instead it's deposited in joints/organs). I don't own a water ioniser, so I can't ionise the water, hence I remove the dissolved rocks (TDS) and add my own ionic minerals while structuring with quartz crystals. The coconut water/milk is for the added electrolytes and a little natural sugar, which does not spike my BG in such a small quantity.

Well, it's up to you what you drink. For my own part, I far prefer bottled (high-alkaline/PH 8.4)) mineral-water

Also, on the matter of minerals, I have been experimenting with occasional bone broths, especially for winter nights, yet I realise that this kind of thermodynamic preparation must present some kind of toxic/oxidative load. Maybe its benefits counter its payload, but as someone once said "there's no pot boiling in nature" - wise words!

Waste of time, IMO.  You're better off eating raw organs as they're so nutrient-dense.

Does anyone have any advice on worthwhile hydration/mineralisation, rather than just delivering some kind of H2O? If I drink too much water, I'm constantly p*ssing like a mule...

In my raw, zero-carb phase, I found that was constantly thirsty no matter how much mineral-water I drank. I assumed at the time that the problem was that I wasn't absorbing the water properly just p*ssing it out, so I added some salt to the mineral water which is supposed to help hydration. While that didn'tsolve my problem with that RZC diet, you might have a go.

That said, does anyone have commentary on the renal load of a primarily RAF diet, which I realise is a subject of debate (as is the pH balance saga)?

My view is that the PH balalnce theory is dead-in-the-water given the experiences of the Inuit and our own experiences, especially those of 100% RZCers. As for renal load, I find that difficult to believe, though perhaps 100% RZC might be an issue. Certainly, going VLC didn't bother my kidnesy at all.

and often combine them with thick macadamia+hazelnut+pecan+brazil milk, home-juiced coconut cream or chocolate mouse (avocado blended with raw cocoa+carob+vanilla).

Cut those artificial foods out 100%, just keep the avocado without the extras. For example, a number of people have had food-intolerance issues with raw coconut oil, myself included, and raw coconut cream may be a serious problem as well. Raw coconut oil was the food I turned out to be most allergic to in terms of immediate severity, with severe digestive pain being caused by it,among other things.

Do you know any other worthwhile carbs that I could incorporate? Does anyone include any amount of daily nuts for vitamins/minerals/anti-oxidants?

If you're going to eat raw nuts, eat them whole and not crushed or processed in any way, and make sure to soak them in water for 24 hours before eating them(they contain lots of antinutrients in them which are reduced if you soak them for that length of time).

Hepatic Sufficiency:
I've already completed upwards of 20 liver flushes, all producing an array of toxic-smelling debris...I'm always working up to the next flush with different organic acids, herbs, tinctures etc. (these never caused eye bags - quite the opposite), so the liver is an ongoing endeavour until that organ is functioning optimally. I also recommend castor oil packs over the liver/GB, which stimulates lymph movement and promotes bile viscosity / deposit dissolution.

Can't imagine that castor oil packs could be remotely healthy. You could try milk thistle herb for the liver(assuming you can get it in unprocessed, non-pill form).

Endocrine/Ductless Glands:
I can't comment on the so-called ductless endocrine glands, but I like to think that I'm avoiding goitrogens, avoiding stimulants, ingesting enough iodine (drops+seaweed powders) and enjoying moderate adaptogens/tonics. If anyone has any interesting recommendations, I'd be glad to accept them!

Try Dr Ron's raw adrenal and raw thyroid freze-dried extracts(just goolge dr ron and that'll be the first link). They're the only raw-friendly glandular product I know of(ie no trans-fats used as fillers etc.)

Ratios:
So, may I ask first - do you measure protein/fat ratios by calories or grams? How many grams of meat and corresponding fat do you eat each day? How many meals do you eat each day and during what time window?

I normally eat 1 large meal a day, usually within a 2 hour period , and I try to make it less than 4 hours as much as possible(to be in line with Intermittent Fasting rules). I also, every now and then, have a whole-day fast so as to remain full of energy and not constantly digesting(which wears down the body).

I don't measure my foods as such. I might eat up to a 1.2 kg lamb leg(the weight includes the bone which I don't of course, eat) a day, but no more than that, usually.

Also, how many RAFers notice greasy or floating BMs (representing diminished fat digestion)? (I could imagine that this subsides over time on a high-fat diet)

Not me. I did have ocasional issues with not digesting raw suet properly(just went through in the stools largely unabsorbed), but that only happened with 1 source of raw suet and not any others.

Anyways...

Skin Tone/Wrinkling
Did anyone notice major improvements in skin tone or diminished/repaired wrinkles over a short/long term? (particularly with liver/GB flushing to improve the organ function and maximise uptake of fat+fat-soluble nutrients)?

I experienced major improvements in skin-tone with my RPD diet. I've never used liver-flushing methods. Never felt the need.

@Tyler: What're you doing for mineralisation along with your hydration?

I just buy high-alkaline bottled water and drink that. High alkaline means a high mineral-content, AFAIR, and I get so many raw foods high in minerals(such as20 raw oysters every fortnight etc.) that I don't need to supplement with anything else.

[Michael]

I'm not sure where to begin MrBBQ!    To be honest, it sounds as though you've been on a very similar journey to my own as I can relate to so many of your experiences, experiments, reflections and conclusions.  Good to read your posts!

My first thoughts are that you need to simplify matters.  For years I overcomplicated it all - endless liver flushes (I used to use olive oil/pink grapefruit juice), enema's, raw goat kefir/egg/honey/butter drinks, drying/grinding/soaking egg shells in lemon juice for calcium citrate, bone broths, complex water management systems similar to your own, jucing/grinding/drying coconuts, soaking/drying nuts & seeds, homemade sauerkraut etc.  It's in my nature to over-analyse literally everything and I find that it's so easy to take that approach with regards to our health and diets.  From being on this forum, I've taken confidence from people like Lex and Andrew (Wodgina) to just keep things a little more simple and to trust in the natural paleo foods of man.

During the long periods of obsessively indulging in the foods and therapies described I always had problems whether it be dark rings under the eyes, faulty digestion, blood sugar/energy problems, brainfog, dry skin, mood swings etc.  Sure, RAF had reduced these issues greatly and removed others completely but they were still issues.

Have you been following Lex's journal?  If not, I'd highly recommend you read it as it's crammed full of wonderful information.

Currently, I consume a very simple diet.  I eat around 400g fatty brisket or fatty lamb breast per day along with around 100-150g of raw ground suet.  I flavour this with small amounts of red onion, herbs (parsley, coriander etc).  I get a fortnightly delivery of lamb liver and heart which I consume in liquidised form over 2 or 3 days.  I take Blue Ice cod liver oil.  I drink water and small amounts of tea (to be sociable).  That's pretty much it!  Occasionally I may include some raw fish but I can't recall the last time.

Since I've been following this regime, my digestion has hugely improved, skin problems have gone, people keep telling me I look well, my physique has improved without exercise, sleep has improved, energy/blood sugar has balanced which enables me to eat just 2 meals per day.  These have all been lifelong problems for me!  Now, I eat before work at 7-8am, work all day with nothing but water, and then have a single meal in the evening at 6-7pm.  I don't get hungry and my energy/moods are stable.  No snacks.  No fruit.  No nuts.  No coconut, honey, dairy....  No more problems!

It appears that I hugely underestimated anti-nutrients.  As Lex's recent bone scan alludes to - minerals are not an issue as long as we're eating good quality paleo foods.

Your experience may be different but I'd recommend simplification.

[Michael]

On the matter of sleep, there are many factors. I never eat within 3 hours of going to bed. My room is completely dark. My upstairs electrical circuits are off at the circuit breaker - this makes an enormous difference, almost as if the room is more still/super-silent (without electrosmog from circuits, which is also perpetuated by the springs in the bed). Ideally, you'd like to stimulate melatonin production, which is the sleep neurotransmitter (only released fully without the presence of photons, hitting your retina!). Ideally, for human growth hormone to be released and facilitate cellular repair, you have to reach delta sleep and fluctuate between that and dream sleep (you need vitamin B6 for dream recall, so enough of that will allow you to remember dreams - eat your raw meat and maybe have a couple of spoons of fresh bee pollen before bed).

Good points on the matter of sleep MrBBQ.  I fully agree.  In addition to diet changes, my lifelong insomnia has finally been resolved by incorporating all of these things.  In addition to shielding or removing the electric fields of the house wiring and appliances, it's also critical to ensure you're not being submerged with EMF from mobile phones, DECT phones, mobile masts, WI-FI etc.  See www.powerwatch.org.uk for details.  There are many ways to diagnose and resolves such issues.  Again, as MrBBQ mentioned, complete darkness is important for many too - including myself.  Melatonin production can be halted from light rays hitting any exposed cells - from my reading - not just the retina!  I'd recommend reading Lights Out: Sleep Sugar and Survival by T.S.Wiley.

[majormark]

Maybe there is something to this idea of sleeping in complete darkness. I usually sleep in a room where light comes in from the street at night. I want to get some opaque window roller shades soon.

What do you use to cover the windows completely?

[Michael]

Yes, I find it absolutely essential that I'm in a completely darkened room majormark.  I've been renting for the last year since selling my house which has made this more difficult.  I've bought some expensive thick, heavy curtains which have been lined with blackout material.  The only problem is that light still creeps in above the curtains and at the sides between the gap with the wall.  This can be solved by fixing the curtain ends to the wall with curtain tape/velcro/tiebacks and by having a curtain pelmet - obviously too much bother/expense whilst renting.

Before I sold my own house, we invested in having a blind specialist tailor make and fit black-out blinds to all bedroom windows in addition to any curtains.  That certainly worked brilliantly and it was difficult to see your hand in front of your face even with street lamps immediately outside the bedroom windows!    

[MrBBQ]

Somehow, I overlooked replying to this thread, even though I'd read and re-read the subsequent replies (thanks to everyone). I must've been subconsciously accumulating some potentially useful muses to spout at the point of critical mass, or thereabouts.

Michael, you are the master of darkness - a much coveted title! Typically, you're representing the pinnacle, by any measure (kewl!)...;-)) Maybe things would be much better in the vast presence of a truly photon-unpolluted night sky...

Nevertheless, there is some perturbation to my mind in the devaluation/dismissal of the application of liver flushing and castor oil packs. Care to elucidate your rationale, if it pleases you...

Initially, it's well-established that bile fulfils many roles within the downstream GI tract, particularly the pH balancing of stomach churn/chyme, amphiphilic emulsification of fats (and thereby uptake of fat-soluble nutrients) and stimulation of intestinal peristalsis. We also realise that bile facilitates the transport of fat-soluble toxins and spent blood cell components (i.e. bilirubin) out into the intestines for clearance to the greater sewer system. Clearly (or murkily!), bile flow is key...

I seem to remember reading somewhere that stomach acid production bears some correlation to bile output, although I can't provide a reference at the moment (hyperlinkmania). Maybe the stomach throttles back when it gets the signal (somehow, don't know the mechanism - vagal-enteric system!) that too much acid is entering the intestine without sufficient normalisation/neutralisation by bile/pancreatic fluid.

Of course, with high fat consumption, along with the non-essential amino acids taurine/glycine, some phosphatidyl choline / lecithin and maybe(!) some regularly ingested bitters (e.g. gentian/angustora, coffee, arugula etc.), bile stasis and crystallisation out of solution may be discouraged. Nevertheless, after some decades with a toxic non-paleolithic living/eating style, coupled with disrespect for circadian rhythms, bile statis and crystallisation of bile components (that is, cholesterol, fat-soluble toxins, salts etc.) due to electrical charge imbalances in the substrate, precipitate (literally!) solid globule formation/growth. In their more sinister maturity, these well-formed crystal/precipitated globules take on a rock-hard mineral coat with the ubiquitous title "gallstones".

Apparently, these heavyweights resist all manner of punishments, leaving the remaining (last resort) option to relax the smooth muscles controlling peristalsis of the biliary tree (intra-hepatic ducts, cystic duct, common bile duct) and orchestrate a devisive spasm-contraction/action of the liver/gallbladder to push debris towards the light at the end of the tunnel. This is the basis of the so-called liver/GB flush...(and subsequent fasttrack of this preformed toxic material out of the downstream GI tract)

I found many methods to "spasmode" my bile injectors/ejectors, but consistently, without some dosing of epsom salts and liquid fats (e.g. 200ml extra virgin olive oil), I have never witnessed biliary debris in the bowl, although I don't exactly pay excess attention! I can consistently stimulate bile release and rapid peristalsis by drinking a cup of cold-brewed/toddy (low-caffeine) coffee with nut milk, or otherwise, just some "yellow dock+bupleurum" tincture in water (there are many more examples that work for me, which I've oft stumbled upon by accident).

I've recommended liver/GB flushing to many people and noticed radical changes in their health (eye whites, lipofuscin/moles/tags disappearing, clearance of inflammation, massive improvement in circulation, fat deposits clearing). Personally, to dismiss this kind of healing modality constitutes a disservice in my opinion...Of course, as a perpetual skeptic without necessarily also having the hinges of self-righteous pragmatism, I'm open to debunking...

I use castor packs regularly and I notice the action they have to stimulate lymph/circulatory movement (as well as the potential to impact biliary deposits) and produce an unquestionable sense of wellbeing. Do you have experience with this folk/archaic practice, which lives on 'til this day?

My intention is to completely transition to RAF-ZC-IF, although I still notice rapid heart rate, cramps etc. without some enjoyment of fruits, nuts, minerals/salts etc. Also, I neither trust water direct from the tap nor from plastic bottles on a shelf. I prefer to make rainwater, add some ionic electrolytes, structure with quartz/magnets and complex with a small ratio of fresh coconut water/pulp. I don't like drinking mineral water containing dissolved rocks and then pissing it out multiple times during the day. Maybe if I was drinking direct from a spring (or collected regularly in glass bottles), I'd consider drinking spring water moderately, but frankly, I've never developed a taste for plain water. The dichotomy is that some peoples seem to thrive on low TDS water and some on high TDS water, but maybe neither of those were ever stagnating/de-vitalising in plastic (a sweet source of xenoestrogens).

One perspective:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4770477589537728517#docid=-8915966819502040048

People may say "it works for me" in defence of some kind of self-fashioned/fashioning fiction, yet may I assert that every sensory experience is relative, even as respects the hallmarks of a truly functional homeostatic. It's probably the same reason that I'm now humbly eating raw grass-fed flesh in lieu of descending into catabolic, pseudo-spiritualised meltdown...

Intermittent Fasting @ Work:
By the way, does anyone ever eat two RAF meals roughly between 12:30 and 16:00 at work? I work 08:00-16:30 in an office with little tolerance for anything as free/open-minded as ZC-RAF-IF, so I would typically have to eat my lunch at 12:30 and then the subsequent meal at 15:30 (clocking off for a half-hour 'til 16:00). I would propose to eat maybe a piece of fruit or something between those meals, which would allow me to finish digestion at 19:30 latest and detox 'til 12:30 the following day (17 hours of metabolic freedom).

What says any IFers around here? (incidentally, who is doing IFing?)

Has anyone ever considered Viktor Schauberger's work (vortex-love!) on water vitality?

I'm eating (loving!) 300-400g meat (different cuts - mainly fatty rump, chuck, shin, topside, lamb chops) with some liver and egg yolks, plus freshly chopped 50-100g top-brisket fat between two meals. I estimate that about 25% of meat is protein, so I keep below 100g protein, so as not to do the excess gluconeogenesis thing and resultant glycation.

Has anyone noticed improvement in wrinkling (probably AGEs/age(!)-related) around eyes on ZC?

With the dualistic cosmology, we can all recognise that not one person has the same experience, so insight/hindsight is not always readily transferrable in whispers...;-))

[MrBBQ]

Oh, did I mention bile movements as an outward shuttle for oxidised cholesterol, as well as acting as an anti-parasite / GI tract eco-steriliser? (many other roles as well, I'm sure)

[Michael]

MrBBQ - I need to crawl into my den of darkness very shortly so will hope to reply more extensively to your post tomorrow.   

At this point I would just like to mention that my rationale for the devaluation/dismissal of liver flushing is in no need of elucidation as I didn't intend to devalue it at all.  Were you referring to my comments or those of others?

to be continued .... 

[MrBBQ]

Hehe, cool...It was more an appeal for our very good contemporary Tyler to substantiate his subjectivity on the matter of castor oil + biliary flushing, which I consider to be valuable.

As we all know, nutrition is only as valuable as what one can uptake, starting with ingestion and finishing with excretion. Personally, I believe that the more one can uptake, the less one has to eat. The less one requires to be satiated, the less time one must spend eating and furthermore, the longer one may live via SIRT-1 gene expression etc. (yeah, I know intermittent fasting is another facilitator, but coupled with an optimal uptake/intake ratio, it could be even more effective).

Ultimately, my point was that with optimal bile flow, potentially less food may be required. Maybe a high fat diet would clear some of the smaller debris from the biliary tree and prevent bile stasis, but what about the larger/fused debris that becomes quite dangerous when it develops a rock-hard mineral coating? Also, what about people adopting the diet in later life, who have biliary insufficiency/attacks (I know quite a few non-family/friend standard dieters around me that've opted to have their GB removed and biliary tree mutilated)?

So, to reiterate, it's uptake vs intake...(and the potential for recycling)

And may I simply assert...Why not juxtaposit non-invasive healing modalities with optimal nutrition?!

It would be ideal of there was some way to gather metrics on bile sufficiency...;-))

[TylerDurden]

Nevertheless, there is some perturbation to my mind in the devaluation/dismissal of the application of liver flushing and castor oil packs. Care to elucidate your rationale, if it pleases you...

It's perfectly simple. Those liver-flushes/castor-oil packs are generally  characteristic of dubious semi-raw-diet ideologies such as Body Electronics, Gerson Therapy and the like. Most people seem to find them pretty useless, IMO and do better on raw, high-quality foods - and, certainly, minus a rawpalaeodiet, people aren't going to benefit much from them if they're still eating a lot of non-raw, non-palaeo foods, like with those semi-raw diets I mentioned. I agree, that in exceptional circumstances, people can benefit from some supplements(even processed),if, for example, there's a massive nutritional deficiency and the like, but, generally speaking, a RVAF diet works better in the long run. I  should add that I've also done liver-flushes and the like in the past and didn't get any real benefit.

My intention is to completely transition to RAF-ZC-IF, although I still notice rapid heart rate, cramps etc. without some enjoyment of fruits, nuts, minerals/salts etc

This really doesn't sound as though you're able to adapt successfully to RZC/100% RAF. If this sort of thing continues for much longer, it would be far better for you to add back in some raw carbs.

Also, I neither trust water direct from the tap nor from plastic bottles on a shelf. I prefer to make rainwater, add some ionic electrolytes, structure with quartz/magnets and complex with a small ratio of fresh coconut water/pulp. I don't like drinking mineral water containing dissolved rocks and then pissing it out multiple times during the day. Maybe if I was drinking direct from a spring (or collected regularly in glass bottles), I'd consider drinking spring water moderately, but frankly, I've never developed a taste for plain water. The dichotomy is that some peoples seem to thrive on low TDS water and some on high TDS water, but maybe neither of those were ever stagnating/de-vitalising in plastic (a sweet source of xenoestrogens).

I've drunk actual rainwater from rainwater-tanks in my family's cottage in County Donegal. Excellent stuff, not sure one can make a 100% authentic artificial version therefrom. As for claims re plastic harming the water within, I'm not so sure they're justified. I mean microscopic amounts of chemicals aren't that much of an issue, IMO, and we are daily exposed to such microscopic amounts even in the countryside. I view the issue as being on the same dubious  level as all those anti-mercury-claims(see past posts).

What says any IFers around here? (incidentally, who is doing IFing?)

I'm doing IF. I do 1 large meal a day, over a 4-hour period(usually much less). I've also often done whole-day fasts here and there(anywhere from 1 to 4 days a fortnight, not necessarily consecutive). IF , for me, was a lifesaver as all those frequent mini-meals that Aajonus recommended slowed down my healing-rate quite drastically. I felt so invigorated, early on, on those days I didn't eat.

Has anyone ever considered Viktor Schauberger's work (vortex-love!) on water vitality?

No, never. Sounds awfully New-Agey to me.

Has anyone noticed improvement in wrinkling (probably AGEs/age(!)-related) around eyes on ZC?

I'm too young for wrinkles, really(albeit not a RZCer). But even raw, omnivorous palaeos experience a distinct lack of wrinkling(well, that is most long-term RVAFers report looking like they are c.10-15 biological years younger when in middle-age, by comparison to their same-aged contemporaries).

[MrBBQ]

Hehe, cool...I love stuff that flies in the face of other stuff...

I'd heard from toxicological circles that 1 atom of mercury is enough to induce the death of a cell. Mercury is pro-oxidant, stealing spare electrons. The application of mercury in dental amalgams is a testament to the evasion of massive liability on the part of the various dental associations. I have 4 amalgams and as soon as I've decided on an appropriate chelation/clathration approach, I shall be having them carefully removed.

I'm not sure if you've engaged in any mercury amalgam removal/chelation (most use massive surface area clays/zeolites, cilantro/coriander and chlorella/algae), but I'm interested to know if you gathered any metrics beforehand.

Maybe your anecdote testifies nothing, yet there're many people that recover from chronic conditions with reduced heavy metal exposure and chelation.

Since I began exclusively eating RV/WAI, then RVAF, my hair has begun falling out (in disproportionate amounts) and then immediately growing back again. My hair has been past shoulder length for the last 5 years, although it's currently all different lengths, mainly because I refuse to shave it all off. I speculate that my hair loss/regrowth is the self-evidence of my mercury amalgams, given that my nutritional profile far exceeds my standard diet modality prior (with the greater potential for detoxification).

Typically, liver flushing is the same (layer upon layer of anecdotes, particularly from those veterans on curezone) and I'm still awaiting your description of an optimal approach to clearing away cholelithiasis due to a stone-filled liver/GB...Personally, I have noticed very significant differences from biliary flushing and I've also experienced biliary pain from passing stones (even with the smooth muscles relaxed a la magnesium).

Given that your average infant has already accumulated bile stones, it's doubtful that you've cleared them or not accumulated them. Naturally, I respect your choice...

Otherwise, if anyone else is interested in experimenting with liver flushing, read Telman's Liver File blog on CureZone (http://curezone.com/blogs/f.asp?f=1196). Also, the condition of bile stasis/sludge/stones in the biliary tree is oft-referred in TCM as "damp heat"), whereby there're many effective herbs that can assist to facilitate liver/GB flushing.

If you'll gladly homogenise the endocrine-disrupting xenoestrogens into your daily environmental toxicity cocktail, that's your prerogative - maybe you should start introducing a few parts per million of exogenous HCAs/AGEs and aflatoxins, just to balance out the flavour, hehe. Personally, I'll stick to non-leaching materials like glass, or at worst, higher quality metals/alloys. Maybe I'll accept LDPE or HDPE for my ice cube trays, but otherwise, I'll prefer the excellence approach to foreground/background toxicity avoidance.

Typically, efficacy rules, so if anything works for anyone, great, otherwise adapt/change...;-))

Many standard people develop superficial and sometimes deeper lines in their late 20s / early 30s, so no wrinkles (or at least superficial lines) is quite uncommon, particularly on the forehead or around the eyes. I was interested to gather anecdotes about people reforming skin complexion/tone/lines on RVAF - maybe that's for another thread...

[MrBBQ]

By the way Tyler, thanks for the quick insight on your IF.

Also, Schauberger was a pragmatist-naturalist, so his compassionate observations were rooted in true nature - not pseudo-science. I remain open-minded to archaism and esoterism, as well as pragmatism! ;-))

[ys]

I'm not sure if you've engaged in any mercury amalgam removal/chelation (most use massive surface area clays/zeolites, cilantro/coriander and chlorella/algae), but I'm interested to know if you gathered any metrics beforehand.

I had 4 amalgam fillings removed last year, I have 2 small amalgam fillings left.  The removal was done without any special mercury-aware tools, with regular dental tools.  I have not noticed any differences in my health that could be related to mercury fillings removal.

About 2 months ago I did heavy metal testing for urine and stool.  Both came out well within the limits.

I will try to remove remaining 2 fillings sometime next year.

[TylerDurden]

Hehe, cool...I love stuff that flies in the face of other stuff...

I'd heard from toxicological circles that 1 atom of mercury is enough to induce the death of a cell. Mercury is pro-oxidant, stealing spare electrons. The application of mercury in dental amalgams is a testament to the evasion of massive liability on the part of the various dental associations. I have 4 amalgams and as soon as I've decided on an appropriate chelation/clathration approach, I shall be having them carefully removed.

Aajonus has pointed out that mercury in the food-chain is bound up in organic compounds so is perfectly bioavailable and not a problem. There is an anti-mercury-hysteria site which details some of the absurdities behind the anti-mercury-hysteria movement, and mentions the agenda behind it too. Plus there's that famous Seychelles study which fully debunked anti-mercury claims a long time ago(they tested Seychelles children who routinely eat 10 times the usual amounts of seafood that Americans eat, and they suffered no side-effects whatsoever):-

http://www.fishscam.com/mercuryMyths.cfm

http://www.rochester.edu/pr/releases/med/mercury.htm

I'm not sure if you've engaged in any mercury amalgam removal/chelation (most use massive surface area clays/zeolites, cilantro/coriander and chlorella/algae), but I'm interested to know if you gathered any metrics beforehand.

I had no anti-mercury agenda, but I used to go in for chlorella/alage in a very big way in my raw vegan days and they did nothing for me. I've used cilantro/coriander early on in my rawpalaeo days and again no effects. i did use clay and only got 1 beneficial effect from it the first time , though I doubt it was due to mercury-levels being lowered after having used other anti-mercury measures which did nothing for me whatsoever- subsequent uses of clay had no discernible effect. Oh, and because my father was a big fan of the anti-mercury nonsense, he gave me a free mercury-amalgam removal of my 1 artificial filling, and that did nothing for me either.Re metrics:- I never bother measuring things as most science is too vague about what constitutes health, for example, ideal blood-pressure/cholesterol-levels etc. are so variable depending on the relevant expert that one can't be sure what signifies true health.

It's not only that many people, including myself, gain no real benefit from mercury-removal techniques, but there have been cases of people dying from chelation therapy and the like.

Since I began exclusively eating RV/WAI, then RVAF, my hair has begun falling out (in disproportionate amounts) and then immediately growing back again. My hair has been past shoulder length for the last 5 years, although it's currently all different lengths, mainly because I refuse to shave it all off. I speculate that my hair loss/regrowth is the self-evidence of my mercury amalgams, given that my nutritional profile far exceeds my standard diet modality prior (with the greater potential for detoxification).

The hair-loss and regrowth seems to be a common pattern among RVAFers, regardless of whether they have mercury-issues or not, just one of the signs of standard detox. I had that happen to me in the early years of going rawpalaeo, and many other RVAFers too, many without mercury-amalgams out in their teeth.

Typically, liver flushing is the same (layer upon layer of anecdotes, particularly from those veterans on curezone) and I'm still awaiting your description of an optimal approach to clearing away cholelithiasis due to a stone-filled liver/GB...Personally, I have noticed very significant differences from biliary flushing and I've also experienced biliary pain from passing stones (even with the smooth muscles relaxed a la magnesium).

The fact that most of the people doing liver-flushes also happily eat at least partially-cooked/processed diets which routinely help clog those livers should indicate that liver-flushing doesn't do much good for such. And, I've noticed, for my own part, that those who get over-obsessed with fads on raw diets(whether being overly obsessed  re mercury or vaccines or liver-flushes or detox or whatever) tend to be the least healthy ones(ie they more commonly report health-problems than others). A good example is the primal diet yahoo group a few years ago. At any rate, I view a simple rawpalaeodiet(and/or perhaps fasting) as being way more effective.

If you'll gladly homogenise the endocrine-disrupting xenoestrogens into your daily environmental toxicity cocktail, that's your prerogative - maybe you should start introducing a few parts per million of exogenous HCAs/AGEs and aflatoxins, just to balance out the flavour, hehe. Personally, I'll stick to non-leaching materials like glass, or at worst, higher quality metals/alloys. Maybe I'll accept LDPE or HDPE for my ice cube trays, but otherwise, I'll prefer the excellence approach to foreground/background toxicity avoidance.

Like I said, there is a danger in going for  absolute perfection(which doesn't really exist, anyway). After a certain point there are diminishing returns and too great effort/cost involved. For example, I chose to go 100% rawpalaeo hardcore in every way  for 6-12 months at a time for some of the early years of this diet, and there were certain awkward results due to social complications etc.

Many standard people develop superficial and sometimes deeper lines in their late 20s / early 30s, so no wrinkles (or at least superficial lines) is quite uncommon, particularly on the forehead or around the eyes. I was interested to gather anecdotes about people reforming skin complexion/tone/lines on RVAF - maybe that's for another thread...

Well, I've done well re skin-tone/lines. Partly because I had skin-inflammation due to dairy-allergies and black circles under the eyes  and muscle-wastage, until the rawpalaeodiet got rid of those issues.

[RawZi]

    Thank you for the links.  Lots of people I know online are hysterical about the topic of mercury.

There is an anti-mercury-hysteria site which details some of the absurdities behind the anti-mercury-hysteria movement, and mentions the agenda behind it too. Plus there's that famous Seychelles study which fully debunked anti-mercury claims a long time ago(they tested Seychelles children who routinely eat 10 times the usual amounts of seafood that Americans eat, and they suffered no side-effects whatsoever):-

http://www.fishscam.com/mercuryMyths.cfm

http://www.rochester.edu/pr/releases/med/mercury.htm

    If someone's face stays young, no wrinkles, no lines, no sagging, keeps tone under eyes, no age spots, no blemishes, bright and not grayish well past their thirties without using any products to do this nor any kind of treatments, might it be due to some kind of inflammatory process in their body?  Might it not be a sign of no diagnosable condition? 

    I'm thinking about myself.  People routinely think I am way younger than my age.  This was occuring even before I started RAF, although I feel the difference now and it feels much better.  I was definitely not without illness as was confirmed by lab test after lab test.

 

Well, I've done well re skin-tone/lines. Partly because I had skin-inflammation due to dairy-allergies and black circles under the eyes  and muscle-wastage, until the rawpalaeodiet got rid of those issues.

[MrBBQ]

So the safety concern and subsequent ban of mercury amalgam dentistry in Denmark, Norway and Sweden is unsubstantiated? Ocean mercury load aside (whether organically bound/complexed), for me (and many others), dental amalgams remain a safety risk and my intent is to minimise heavy metal exposure by having them correctly removed and the residue carefully chelated with the most natural means. Furthermore, on the matter of the oceans, aren't there many more inorganic/organic molecules in that ecosystem that weren't around at the time of our paleolithic/hominid genome development. I'm all for advocating these counter-counter arguments, but when there's some substance in the original argument, I don't easily dismiss it. Once again, I suppose efficacy rules and I do value your experiences/insights...

@RawZi: What's your point? I would prefer to say adequate cellular/systemic metabolism (absence of inflammatory process) is the facilitator of vitality hallmarks, yet are you proposing any strategy? Are we talking biochemistry of inter/intra-cellular fluid, electrolyte sufficiency, organ function, gut symbiosis, anti-oxidant status, general systemic healing? We are, of course now in the wider ecosystem of industrial civilisation and orthodox medical iatrogenesis, so the equation has slightly more variables...

Danger of absolute perfection? I agree that there are no absolutes nor any true ideological definition of perfection, but I prefer to propose "best endeavour", particularly on account of those healing a chronic or terminal condition. Naturally, we recount stories of natural lifeforms trekking/migrating for large portions of their life to secure their optimal nutrition, so maybe in Western civilisation, this notion is skewed somewhat.

Awkward results and social complications? As The Doors' Jim Morrison said "Where's your will to be weird?" and maybe some other cliches. Ultimately, I only embraced the raw eating style on account of my subversiveness. Surely, living peoples' projections of what one is socially-accepted to do is undermining to one's own intuitive course? Aren't people doing what they desire like buying into destructive food industries, so they can satisfy their materialistic obligations projected upon them by their equally-soulless peers (a la covert peer pressure). Best to embrace intellectual anarchy to some extent, as a means for self-realisation (of course, be surrendering, hehe). Maybe there're some RAFers around here that take their raw animal meals to work in opaque lunch boxes, or try to gently introduce unsuspecting ones, I don't know...Tiny minds everywhere is my (non-judgemental, hehe) observation...
(http://www.insurgentdesire.org.uk/niceism.htm)

I still wonder what your advice would be to someone experiencing acute biliary attacks with strong admonition from orthodox medicine to tear out the defective (and apparently needless, yet systemically critical) organ...;-))

[RawZi]

    @MrBBQ I would still advise to try raw wild-caught fish and to avoid mercury from other sources.  I do think my diet helps me too, just wondering if some kind of inflammatory process is keeping my face young.  

    People used to think pink cheeks were a sign of health.  Now doctors look at it and start testing for lupus.  I'm not even sure lupus is a disease.  I have been diagnosed with it years ago.  I was eating refined wheat, cooked vegetables and other problematic foods at the time on a regular basis.  I knew there were problems in my body, even though I did prove to have no organ scarring later.  What started them doing testing for autoimmune diseases on me was my healthy looking pink cheeks.  They believed me that there was something up in my body, but they didn't know where to start till the doctor observe my cheek color.  I did prove higher in several lupus type antibodies than anyone they had ever tested by far.  

    I checked again after starting RAF, and the antibodies, some came down to normal range, other came down to still high but levels doctors are more accustomed to seeing.  This was several years ago.  I'm getting new results shortly.  My point being, are a highly active immune systems only a sign of illness as the authorities propose it is?  Or is a highly active immune system only a problem when eating the food the authorities think are normal or experiencing other high stresses?  Is my very active immune system good for something the authorities are not aware of, like keeping my face young?  Maybe it's something else altogether or nothing.

[MrBBQ]

Hehe, cool...I understand your point now RawZi...Personally, I consider the silent inflammation that continues unnoticed for years to be more of a threatening syndrome than immunomodulation challenge manifestations like regularly-reddened skin. The toxic load of the kidney/liver<-blood<-tissues is of significance in re-balancing immune conditions, so long-term abstinence from food-borne toxins would be a very helpful factor.

I would love to start eating wild, raw fish, but frankly, I have no idea where to buy it from (whereby it's fresh and has been handled properly) and I'm not versed in searching for parasites, which I'd prefer not to consume (Anisakis etc.). I realise that these things can't inhabit our bodies for long, but it's my intention to steer clear, where possible. What's your strategy?

I'm typically mistaken for being much younger, yet I believe it's part of my demeanour as well as a long-term health endeavour (partly catalysed by having an endoscope shoved up the worst orifice that could be envisaged for a male of the species - for no good reason - damn why did I remind myself of that again!).

On the matter of allopathic doctors and their technological diagnostics/metrics, it's obviously within the ethnographic edifice of elitist altruism - a benign institution, if ever it's been linked to global industrial complexes...A last-resort option, if it ever came to that...

Did you ever consider herbalism as an endeavour in further stimulating your healing, as well as periodic/intermittent water/liquid-nutritional fasting?

Also, what about the bio-diversity of your gut's ecosystem - high meats, ferments etc.? Immunity is rooted there, so some say (as well as neurotransmitter production and even blood cell production, as some controversially say of the latter).

Do you know about the humates/fulvates of moomiyo/shilajit, which are also meant to be immunomodulators, as well as sources of so-called soil-borne organisms? I suppose I'm getting off-topic now, so I'll care not to digress further...