Raw Unheated Honey

[PaleoPhil]

Excess intake of proteins can cause acidic reactions which might be the cause.

Raw honey cruds up my teeth like bharminder said even if I eat it alone.

A few good tips would be to brush your teeth after your meals and swishing.

Yup, that's basically what bharminder recommended and that's what I do. No matter how well I brush, I still end up with crud in the morning after I eat plant carbs, so I think it may feed bacteria in my mouth.

Raw honey remains palatable for 100s and thousands of years because of its antibacterial and antifungal properties.

Yes, I've read about it's benefits and it's quite tasty, so I was disappointed with the results. I imagine that if I had been on a traditional diet from conception then raw honey probably wouldn't be a problem for me. There also many not be enough royal jelly in the kinds I've tried.

[King Salmon]

Raw honey remains palatable for 100s and thousands of years because of its antibacterial and antifungal properties.

Antifungal? How will it perform against Candida? Candida feeds on sugar.Honey is a sugar.It doesn't add up

[miles]

For those who want to eat unheated honey but get teeth problems I recommend brushing your teeth immediately after eating the honey. Since it is very sticky, it can wreck your teeth unless you clean them..

In my experience comb honey was much easier on the teeth.

[PaleoPhil]

I found comb honey to be slightly better to regular raw honey, though it still had negative dental effects. I think that chewing the wax helped a little. By interesting coincidence I've found that chewing suet, which has a similar consistency, has one of the best dental benefits of the foods I've tried.

[David Howe]

Antifungal? How will it perform against Candida? Candida feeds on sugar.Honey is a sugar.It doesn't add up

What's with the Candida, m8? Candida is your best friend. It's the body's backup system incase your insulin / pancreas couldnt get rid of the excess sugars in your body.

I have a question for you, do you include lots of fats in your diet; from animal or plant source? That might be the cause of your problem. Candida is in everyone of us, and will remain in us until we die. As long as you live and breathe, you will have Candida.

[David Howe]

I found comb honey to be slightly better to regular raw honey, though it still had negative dental effects. I think that chewing the wax helped a little. By interesting coincidence I've found that chewing suet, which has a similar consistency, has one of the best dental benefits of the foods I've tried.

So if you take one or two teaspoon(s) of honey everyday, you'll have teeth probs? What kind of teeth is that? That's not natural, phil. I dont have any problems. My teeth are like white pearls.

[David Howe]

In my experience comb honey was much easier on the teeth.

I like both, honey and honey comb. But it doesnt matter, both are very good for healthy teeth. Infact you can fight tooth decay by eating more honey.

[King Salmon]

What's with the Candida, m8? Candida is your best friend. It's the body's backup system incase your insulin / pancreas couldnt get rid of the excess sugars in your body.

So,you haven't heard of Candida overgrowth? Fats help for sure.I don't see how honey is a "miracle" food though.To me it's just another source of sugar.Coconut oil is a much better choice for anifungal/antibacterial IMHO.

[miles]

What's with the Candida, m8? Candida is your best friend. It's the body's backup system incase your insulin / pancreas couldnt get rid of the excess sugars in your body.

I have a question for you, do you include lots of fats in your diet; from animal or plant source? That might be the cause of your problem. Candida is in everyone of us, and will remain in us until we die. As long as you live and breathe, you will have Candida.

Sounds about what I thought. But couldn't someone have a problem that means they never produce enough insulin, and so would need to be careful around sugars until their body healed?

[David Howe]

So,you haven't heard of Candida overgrowth? Fats help for sure.I don't see how honey is a "miracle" food though.To me it's just another source of sugar.Coconut oil is a much better choice for anifungal/antibacterial IMHO.

Well it depends on what honey you are talking about. If it's the raw honey from the markets or from the next door bee-keeper then yes it is nothing special. Very good but not very potent. But if you go for Manuka Honey, or the Yemen Sidr Honey then now we're talking about the real stuff. Bees make around 37,000 trips of collecting pollen in their average life; the worker bees that collect the Pollen from the sidr tree (also known as Lote tree, Christ's Thorn, Jujube or Nabkh tree), die after only 3 trips (3 as opposed to 37000 (thirty seven thousand); that's how potent the nectar of this tree is), and the anti-oxidant levels of the sidr honey and those of the Manuka honey are 10 times those of the normal raw honey. Price is expensive though; 200 box per Kilo and that's the B Grade stuff.

Hehe, Coconut oil is Fat. Yes, if you're coming from a SAD diet, taking coconut oil or cooking with it or preparing your food with it is one hell of an improvement. But once your diet improves and so your body, you need to look into the real good stuff.

[PaleoPhil]

So if you take one or two teaspoon(s) of honey everyday, you'll have teeth probs? What kind of teeth is that? That's not natural, phil. I dont have any problems. My teeth are like white pearls.

I'm not claiming that you do have problems with honey. Everyone doesn't respond the same to everything. That's one thing that has been made eminently clear to me by this forum and others. I've been amazed by the wide variance in reactions to the same foods by people just at this forum, and even moreso when including folks at other forums I sometimes peruse. Don't worry about raw honey not working for me. If it works for you that's great and all you need be concerned with. Just please don't try to speak for everyone. Your experience is your own, not mine nor anyone else's. I have nothing against raw honey. I love it and would be thrilled if I adapted to it some day, maybe with the help of royal jelly, I don't know. If not, that's OK too, as I love meats and fish. I'll make lemonade of whatever lemons I'm given.

[David Howe]

I'm not claiming that you do have problems with honey. Everyone doesn't respond the same to everything. That's one thing that has been made eminently clear to me by this forum and others. I've been amazed by the wide variance in reactions to the same foods by people just at this forum, and even moreso when including folks at other forums I sometimes peruse. Don't worry about raw honey not working for me. If it works for you that's great and all you need be concerned with. Just please don't try to speak for everyone. Your experience is your own, not mine nor anyone else's. I have nothing against raw honey. I love it and would be thrilled if I adapted to it some day, maybe with the help of royal jelly, I don't know. If not, that's OK too, as I love meats and fish. I'll make lemonade of whatever lemons I'm given.

I just worry about people, that is all. 

But seriously, i am not speaking for everyone; i am simply pointing out my index finger at the obvious truth. We should not mislead people into thinking honey is bad for them. There's a reason why honey stays palatable for 100s of years. almost any food which stands the test of time is actually an excellent addition to one's diet. Honey is one of them. 

[PaleoPhil]

I just worry about people, that is all. 

But seriously, i am not speaking for everyone

That's good to see.

We should not mislead people into thinking honey is bad for them.

I haven't, and nor should we mislead them into think that honey is magically good for everyone. People should go by their own experiences, not just what you or I tell them.

There's a reason why honey stays palatable for 100s of years. almost any food which stands the test of time is actually an excellent addition to one's diet. Honey is one of them. 

But not necessarily for everyone, because you are "not speaking for everyone," right?

[michaelwh]

So if you take one or two teaspoon(s) of honey everyday, you'll have teeth probs? What kind of teeth is that? That's not natural, phil. I dont have any problems. My teeth are like white pearls.

I like both, honey and honey comb. But it doesnt matter, both are very good for healthy teeth. Infact you can fight tooth decay by eating more honey.

I experience dental problems if I eat honey on a regular basis.

If I eat a few teaspoons of honey every day, over the period of a month or two, then my teeth start getting loose. If I then cut out the honey, my teeth start getting firm again.

Honey has helped me with other things (for example, during a cold/flu), but it always has negative effects on my teeth.

I'm curious, what is the basis of your statement that "you can fight tooth decay by eating more honey"? Personal experience? Theory? Some article that you read?

[King Salmon]

David,so you like raw fish and honey?You must have been a bear in a previous life.

[David Howe]

That's good to see.
I haven't, and nor should we mislead them into think that honey is magically good for everyone. People should go by their own experiences, not just what you or I tell them.
But not necessarily for everyone, because you are "not speaking for everyone," right?

I would rather learn from other's mistakes. Yeah i wasnt speaking for everyone; it's just the echo of what i said resonating into everyone's ears. Truth can be very load and difficult to hide, Phil. Not speaking for everyone here, just from my experience.

[David Howe]

I experience dental problems if I eat honey on a regular basis.

If I eat a few teaspoons of honey every day, over the period of a month or two, then my teeth start getting loose. If I then cut out the honey, my teeth start getting firm again.

Honey has helped me with other things (for example, during a cold/flu), but it always has negative effects on my teeth.

I'm curious, what is the basis of your statement that "you can fight tooth decay by eating more honey"? Personal experience? Theory? Some article that you read?

yeah m8; personal experience and also read it on the net. Google it; i am not making this up. Next time Get Manuka Honey 15+ UMF and above; its not that expensive; around 30 to 40$.

[David Howe]

David,so you like raw fish and honey?You must have been a bear in a previous life.

And you must've been a Salmon Fish. If only we have met in the previous life.  

[Hannibal]

Honey has helped me with other things (for example, during a cold/flu), but it always has negative effects on my teeth.

Practically every stick has two ends.
Even so healthy organ-meats packed with so many nutrients have got a lot of purines which can lead to gout in some people.

[TylerDurden]

So where do you guys get your Raw Honey from? Any Bee Pollen / Royal Jelly Lovers out there?

  I used to get sundried bee pollen quite a lot some years ago but I stopped after I realised I was feeling abnormally hot soon afterwards. I find that raw, liquid honey of whatever type seems to cause an extremely negative shift in blood-sugar levels plus a nasty very odd taste in my mouth, so I cut it out quick from my diet. Raw honeycomb(especially the darker, richer kind like healther honeycomb) affects me much less, though I seem to react to it badly if I consume large amounts of it at a time. I get my honeycomb from local farmers' markets. I see it as a nice, occasional delicacy to have in the summer, but I wouldn't dream of having it as a staple in the diet. I never got any effect from bee propolis, but all the propolis products I found were highly processed, so that might have been the reason.

I also, after a long search,  tried genuinely raw royal jelly(almost all royal jelly seems to be preheated some way). That was the only genuinely healthy raw honey product, from my POV, as it gave me a huge amount of sudden instant energy.

One of the main things complained about on the Primal Diet was the excessive amounts of raw honey that Aajonus recommended(though I've heard from some that he recommends lower amounts now).  Therefore, while we view raw honey to be fine for some (though not RZCers, of course, among others), it's often recommended to keep raw honey intake to just low or moderate levels. I am sure there are some who can wolf down raw honey in very large amounts without any side-effects, but, last I checked, they were in a minority. Anyway, everyone is expected to do their own experimentation to see what works for one on a RVAF diet, given that we all have different tolerances to foods etc.

Love the avatar, naturally.

[michaelwh]

yeah m8; personal experience and also read it on the net. Google it; i am not making this up. Next time Get Manuka Honey 15+ UMF and above; its not that expensive; around 30 to 40$.

I did find a number of articles about how Manuka honey can help with dental problems, due to its anti-bacterial properties.

About 3 years ago, I found Manuka honey in a health food store and tried it. It was UMF 18 (the highest they had). However, it was heated (but not pasteurized). It had a nice taste. I was eating local honey at the same time as the Manuka honey, so I don't know if Manuka by itself is bad for my teeth. It might be worth a try. Do you know a source for unheated Manuka honey?

I've also been reading up on Yemen Sidr honey. Very expensive, but I might try it once. Maybe it won't have such a bad effect on my teeth.

[David Howe]

I did find a number of articles about how Manuka honey can help with dental problems, due to its anti-bacterial properties.

About 3 years ago, I found Manuka honey in a health food store and tried it. It was UMF 18 (the highest they had). However, it was heated (but not pasteurized). It had a nice taste. I was eating local honey at the same time as the Manuka honey, so I don't know if Manuka by itself is bad for my teeth. It might be worth a try. Do you know a source for unheated Manuka honey?

I've also been reading up on Yemen Sidr honey. Very expensive, but I might try it once. Maybe it won't have such a bad effect on my teeth.

You see, imo, nothing taken in moderation, will hurt you even poison (vaccination...etc). It's absurd to throw all the blame of our teeth problems on Honey because that's absolutely not true.  Anything taken excessively will cause damage (even water). The more is less.

I am actually looking for unheated Manuka like yourself. Havent done a proper search yet; i might do that later. Will revert if i stumbled across any sources. Please do the same too. But i think they'll mostly be heated.


I dont mind buying expensive yemen sidr honey; havent tried it yet myself (i just got to know about it recently). But i have to find a source i can trust because they can easily rip you and you'll never know. If i find anything, i will also revert.

[majormark]

Scott Wheeler explains here what is the insulin like substance:

"The insulin like factor is actually plant amylase, collected and concentrated by the bees. It will convert starches into maltose (thus reducing insulin requirements)."

http://flexrx.nourished.com.au/2008/08/06/the-primal-diet/#comment-985

[David Howe]

Well done, Major!

Another Yay to Raw Honey!

[PaleoPhil]

Scott Wheeler explains here what is the insulin like substance:

"The insulin like factor is actually plant amylase, collected and concentrated by the bees. It will convert starches into maltose (thus reducing insulin requirements)."

http://flexrx.nourished.com.au/2008/08/06/the-primal-diet/#comment-985

That's great, Majormark. I hope that means I'll be able to handle raw honey better some day in the future. On the bright side for me, it seems I can eat plenty more calories from honey with less negative effects than fruits, and my tolerance for raw honey seems to be gradually improving over time, in that I can eat more without getting nauseous or fuzzy-headed (though I can develop mild stomach irritation if I don't eat meat or fat with it). On the other hand, during the last 4 months in which I've been eating more carbs than in the prior months, including more raw honey, my dentist says I've developed the beginnings of two new cavities that need filling (though it also turns out that the new toothpaste I was using doesn't contain fluoride, so that may have been a factor), so maybe I'm just fooling myself with wishful thinking that I'll be able to handle raw honey well some day.

I also provided links to studies that suggest that royal jelly is also an insulin-like substance (although one older study didn't support this hypothesis). Is Aajonus aware of the reputed insulin-like effects of royal jelly? If not, it might be another point supporting his promotion of raw honey.

Some here have mentioned that AV reduced his recommendation of raw honey consumption. Have you heard this and do you have any sources on this that you can refer me to?

I know that hunter-gatherers gorge on honeycomb/grubcomb when it's available, as I've discussed before. There is also the case of "the Honeymen" who apparently consume enormous quantities of raw honeycomb, fermented raw honey, and mead and I haven't seen any reports of ill health among them, though that doesn't prove that they don't have any diseases of civilization, of course. It would surprise me if honey had serious negative health effects on people who eat a HG diet from conception, at least when the honey consumed is wild, raw, whole (honeycomb and grubcomb) and when consumed in season and in the quantities that HGs consume it in the wild.

In case there's any misunderstanding by anyone, my reports of negative effects from raw honey and raw honeycomb are only meant to be regarding me, not anyone else. I don't take exception to anyone reporting negative effects from the foods I thrive on--raw meats/fish/organs and animal fat--and I hope that no one takes exception to any negative reports I make about their most beneficial or favorite foods. Negative reports about popular foods like raw honey, pemmican and other fatty foods, raw fruits, and starchy foods seem to generate hostility at times. In my case, I'm not pushing any agenda, not prescribing for anyone, and not extrapolating my experience onto anyone. I love raw honey and I wish I could eat it every day, so I can't imagine any reason that my negative reports about it would cause hostility and I'm hoping that they haven't. If anyone does perceive a hidden propaganda message in what I write, I hope they will respond with specifics and I hope they will feel comfortable addressing them directly to me so I can resolve any misconceptions.

The negative effects I get from raw honey could be due to past damage from SAD or individual genetics or epigenetics or who knows what. Everyone is different. I'm open-minded to whatever the facts are. Like Lex, I mean what I say and nothing more. There is no hidden message in-between my lines.

BTW, I've tried heated 16+ Manuka honey before and to me it seemed like an inferior product to raw honey. I'm suprised that someone would promote heated honey on this board, particularly in a thread labeled "Raw Unheated Honey", as raw multiple Manuka honey products are easily found on Amazon.com. I'm curious about trying the 16+ or more raw Manuka honey products, but am not interested in trying the heated ones again.