Raw Unheated Honey

[King Salmon]

I know that hunter-gatherers gorge on honeycomb/grubcomb when it's available, as I've discussed before. There is also the case of "the Honeymen" who apparently consume enormous quantities of raw honeycomb, fermented raw honey, and mead and I haven't seen any reports of ill health among them,

In case there's any misunderstanding by anyone, my reports of negative effects from raw honey and raw honeycomb are only meant to be regarding me, not anyone else. I don't take exception to anyone reporting negative effects from the foods I thrive on--raw meats/fish/organs and animal fat--and I hope that no one takes exception to any negative reports I make about their most beneficial or favorite foods. Negative reports about popular foods like raw honey, pemmican and other fatty foods, raw fruits, and starchy foods seem to generate hostility at times. In my case, I'm not pushing any agenda, not prescribing for anyone, and not extrapolating my experience onto anyone. I love raw honey and I wish I could eat it every day, so I can't imagine any reason that my negative reports about it would cause hostility and I'm hoping that they haven't. If anyone does perceive a hidden propaganda message in what I write, I hope they will respond with specifics and I hope they will feel comfortable addressing them directly to me so I can resolve any misconceptions.

The negative effects I get from raw honey could be due to past damage from SAD or individual genetics or epigenetics or who knows what. Everyone is different. I'm open-minded to whatever the facts are. Like Lex, I mean what I say and nothing more. There is no hidden message in-between my lines.

cool,"Honeymen"...sounds like a band from the 60's

Btw,that's a heck of a disclaimer Phil.I don't know why you feel you need to write all that.To make it easier you might as well put something at the bottom of your sig.Just in case you need to get that across in future posts.Just sayin'.

Like I've said before,one man's food is another man's poison.There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.If someone wants to eat honey all day.Have at it.I just get a little tired of the salesmanship of cetain "miracle" foods by certain posters.For myself,I'm doing great on coconut oil.But I'm sure not promoting it

[PaleoPhil]

I don't know why you feel you need to write all that.To make it easier you might as well put something at the bottom of your sig.Just in case you need to get that across in future posts.Just sayin'.

I think I already have the basics covered in my sig "Discussion aids' and there's no more room, unfortunately. Few seem to notice them anyway. I must admit that I don't read sigs much myself. For one thing, the font is too small, though I've been trying to read them more since I created my own sig. I also put something in my avatar. In spite of all this, when I report any negative results from carby foods in this forum there seems to often follow some sort of complaint about people putting down good foods or making up false symptoms or misreading their symptoms or not giving the food enough time or doing something wrong or something of the sort. No amount of explaining before, during or after seems has seemed to prevent or alleviate it up to now. Sometimes folks will say that the complaints are unrelated to the posts in which I and other posters report negative results from eating popular foods. But it's strange that they always seem to come right afterwards for whatever reason. My current strategy is to beat the point to death in the hopes that I get complaints about too much explanation instead of perceptions of too much hostility by me toward yummy raw honey and raw fruit. So far it seems to be working.

Like I've said before,one man's food is another man's poison.There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.If someone wants to eat honey all day.Have at it.

Exactly. I'm not disputing them--on the contrary, I'm envious. If it really bothered me it would be like adding insult to injury to receive negative reactions to my negative reports from trying to eat the foods I love and wish I could eat more of. But it doesn't really bother me anyway. I look at negative reactions and rebuttals as useful tools for putting my analyses, ideas and assumptions/givens to the test or improving my communications. That's why I tend to get more out of boards where people disagree with me more, like this one, than ones where people largely agree with me, so I can see alternative views and maybe learn something or spark a new tangential idea (although this can go too far to the other extreme--I doubt I'd learn much at 30BAD, where people would likely just spew unsupported propaganda at me off the top of their heads about how I shouldn't murder animals and how magical eating tons of sugary fruits is and the like). Like someone else indicated, I don't like "circle jerks," if you'll pardon the expression. I also think people could disagree without acting disagreeable. A combination of a variety of views with fact-based and research-supported points politely made by experienced and well-read people would be the best of all worlds, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it. I would like to get to the point where my communications are sufficiently clear that people disagree with me for views I actually hold rather than views that are the complete opposite of what I think.

I just get a little tired of the salesmanship of cetain "miracle" foods by certain posters.For myself,I'm doing great on coconut oil.But I'm sure not promoting it

I hear you. I try not to sell anything myself, nor portray anything as "miracle" foods. And yet, if you had told me years ago the benefits I would experience from avoiding certain foods and eating certain others, it would have sounded like an impossible miracle to me. So I do understand people's desire to want to "save the world," as it were. That seems to wear off somewhat in many people over time. It seems to be the newbies who are most prone to the most strident evangelism, though not always (I think DurianRider has been at it quite a while now, for example, though I don't know how long).

[Wolf]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I was wondering if anyone knew if Trader Joe's Raw Organic Honey is really raw.. because I know a lot of times things are labeled as raw but they don't mean it's unheated.  I think it is unheated though, because the honey is thick and solid and opaque rather than runny amber and see-through.. but there's nothing on the label saying if its unheated or unprocessed or anything.  but here's what it looks like:
(from google images)


I did find another place that sells raw honeys that actually say on the labels that its unheated/unprocessed/unfiltered but i think they are more expensive.  I also found this amazing super enriched honey, the brand is "Y.S. Organic Bee Farms" and is labeled "specially harvested/raw, unprocessed, unpasteurized super enriched honey" ... it's ingredients are bee pollen, bee propolis, royal jelly, and raw honey.  it tastes absolutely amazing, it's really delicious, I can't seem to get enough of it.  I just wish it was local, but unfortunately I haven't been able to find any local raw honey or honeycombs.  I'd recommend anyone who eats honey to try this super enriched honey though, if they can find it, the bottle looks like this:

[RomanK]

Yesterday there was reportage about African tribe. The people look great with good muscles, especially biceps (though not like bodybuilders ?)
The most valuable thing for them is HONEY! The men are ready to die for it! It is very dangerous business to collect honey. A man must climb on the tree (I suppose around 15 m)and with a axe “open” the trunk, collect honey combs and put it into the bucket, descend it down to the ground.
The whole process is very “primitive”, climbing with liana like rope loop device, bucket is from leaves and branches, man is practically naked. (I wonder how he survives?... Might be bees do not touch him?).
The only certain thing is: honey is treasure for these people and they eat it with big pleasure. But keep in mind that it is REAL honey...

[PaleoPhil]

I think the video you're talking about is one that was posted in this forum before. The narrator said that the man was stung many times, but he didn't even flinch. Amazing!

I've tried many raw honeys and I've been getting what seem like very positive results from Really Raw brand fermented honey. It seems like the best results from any honey so far, but it's too early to report in detail yet.

Has anyone else noticed better results from fermented raw honey than regular raw honey?

[MaximilianKohler]

That trader joe's honey is pretty nice. It's not excessively sweet. And it's pretty cheap for quality honey at $6/lb.

Not sure if it's completely unheated though. You could probably call them and ask.

[laterade]

Has anyone else noticed better results from fermented raw honey than regular raw honey?

How does one ferment honey?
I was pretty sure raw honey lasts longer than people do.

When I run a search all I can find is mead brewing...

[PaleoPhil]

Fermented honey = honey that contains a tiny bit of moisture and which has naturally fermented (like natural sauerkraut, yoghurt, kumiss, high meat, stink fish, fermented seal oil, fermented whale oil, etc.)
Mead = a fermented liquid beverage made from a naturally fermented solution of (honey + added water) and sometimes other ingredients

Fermented Honey      
http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/499-fermented-honey.html

"Since early times, man has made fermented drinks with honey. The most important was mead, an alcoholic beverage, enjoyed by the English and Russians. The word derives from the Sanskrit word for honey, which is madhu. A similar drink called t’ej is popular in Ethiopia.

What is less well known is the fact that honey itself can ferment, if it contains enough residual moisture and is left in a warm place--honey ferments but never spoils! Fermented honey actually expands somewhat, and develops rich flavors. It is an even better aid to digestion than regular honey."


Really Raw Fermented Honey
http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RRH&Category_Code=FRRH

"Fermented honey is the Nectar and Ambrosia of the Greek gods and the basic ingredient of Mead, a beverage enjoyed since antiquity.

With a rich, sharp taste and smell, our fermented honey is soft and frothy. The taste and consistency make it ideal for lemonade or smoothies (see our lemonade recipe). In general, it can be used exactly like our other honeys.

Moisture and warmth produce fermentation. When the moisture level of the honey is slightly elevated and the temperature is warm, fermentation may occur, due to the enzymes and the yeast in honey. Two main reasons for heating honey in modern times are to stop fermentation and be able to strain it. But fermentation is not harmful. Some people believe that it is more effective for digestion than honey that is not fermented, but we have not seen any documentation to either prove or disprove this theory.

During the fermentation process the honey can get bubbly and even overspill out of the jar, so keep that in mind when storing."


Mead
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead

"Mead (pronounced /'mi?d/ meed) (also called honey wine) is an alcoholic beverage that is produced by fermenting a solution of honey and water.[1] It may also be produced by fermenting a solution of water and honey with grain mash; the mash is strained off immediately after fermentation."

[laterade]

Thanks PP
You are always great with info!

Unfortunately the honey here in the southwest is mostly dry, like 15% moisture.
I might be making mead soon though, that should be interesting.

[PaleoPhil]

You're welcome! I love wise-cracking babies, BTW.

[laterade]

You're welcome! I love wise-cracking babies, BTW.

well someone called me a baby because I love milk, so I thought I would wear it! 
Also my facebook pic, it's my favorite picture of myself thus far. LoL!

[Wolf]

So, could I ferment my raw honey by adding a drop or so of water into my jar of honey and letting it sit for a while?  I've already let it been sitting out for a long time, though I don't suppose it has enough moisture to ferment properly..

It won't become alcoholic though, will it?  I am against consuming any sort of alcohol, I don't want this to turn into mead..

[RawZi]

    You could make honey alcoholic by mixing it with water and letting it sit.  At least it's not grain whiskey or grape wine.  I've added honey to grain sprouts and other times organic fruit peels with clean water to make bubbly mildly alcoholic beverages.  It goes over well with guests who would otherwise want beer or champagne.  It tastes "live", unlike anything one could buy.  I'm not so sure it's always goods to help you digest your meal, like some claim, but it's a fairly healthy thing that is not available otherwise.  I wouldn't say anyone would do well to drink it every day.

    By the way, I don't think fermented honey is on the primal diet.

[PaleoPhil]

It won't become alcoholic though, will it?  I am against consuming any sort of alcohol, I don't want this to turn into mead..[/font]

Based on the info above on mead, it sounds like it needs to be a solution of water with some honey in it to make mead, not honey with a drop of water. I've never seen thick mead for sale, have you? I can't say there would be zero alcohol in fermented honey, though I doubt there would be much. I'm not concerned about it myself. If you are, you could search online or ask at one of the mead forums.

BTW, I ordered both the unfermented and fermented Really Raw honey this time. I tried the unfermented and it didn't give me the benefits that the fermented did. So the fermentation seems to be the key for me. The WAPF claims that fermented honey is even better for the digestion than unfermented, but they didn't give any reasons why or any details. If anyone knows anything about fermented raw honey, I hope they'll share a tidbit or two. I searched online and haven't anything beyond the brief claim at the WAPF site.

[raw-al]

   You could make honey alcoholic by mixing it with water and letting it sit.  At least it's not grain whiskey or grape wine.  I've added honey to grain sprouts and other times organic fruit peels with clean water to make bubbly mildly alcoholic beverages.  It goes over well with guests who would otherwise want beer or champagne.  It tastes "live", unlike anything one could buy.  I'm not so sure it's always goods to help you digest your meal, like some claim, but it's a fairly healthy thing that is not available otherwise.  I wouldn't say anyone would do well to drink it every day.

    By the way, I don't think fermented honey is on the primal diet.

Details please! That sounds excellent. What sprouts, peels, how long etc.

[RawZi]

Details please! That sounds excellent. What sprouts, peels, how long etc.

    Mostly I'd use what I cut off organic local pineapple.

    I used wheat, rye and millet sprouts. Look at the CHI site. I think they would have a good recipe for "rejuvelac champagne".

[raw-al]

Here is what I found;

HOW TO MAKE REJUVELAC


CREATIVE HEALTH INSTITUTE’S METHOD:

This method is good if there are temperature fluctuations.  It makes a tarter, more flavorful rejuvelac than the whole berry method.  Also, because more of the seed is exposed to water, fermentation is more complete.  This results in a rejuvelac that is nutritionally superior to other methods.

1.   Soak wheat seeds for 10-12 hours (soft variety preferable).
2.   Drain.  Let sprout for at least one full day (until you see a tail).  Rinse twice a day.
3.   Grind sprouted seeds in a blender.
4.   Put one cup ground seed sprouts into a gallon jar and fill with water.
5.   Let stand at room temperature (68-72 degrees), stirring twice daily for 2 to 4 days.  If the temperature of the room is higher, fermentation occurs more quickly.  Rejuvelac may be ready in as little as 1 day.


WHOLE BERRY METHOD

1.   Soak wheat seeds for 10-12 hours (soft variety preferable) in a gallon jar.
2.   Drain.  Let sprout for at least one full day (until you see a tail).  Rinse twice a day.
3.   Pour water over the sprouted wheat seeds in the jar.  Use approximately 3 times the amount of water as there are wheat seeds.
4.   Cover the jar with wire mesh or cheese cloth.  Keep at room temperature for 48 hours.
5.   You now have your first batch of rejuvelac.  Pour the liquid into another jar for drinking.  Ideally drinks should be at room temperature, so have some rejuvelac at room temperature in a pitcher or decanter and refrigerate the amount not needed.  Rejuvelac will keep for several days if refrigerated.  Use rejuvelac whenever blending because its vitamin E content acts as an antioxidant.
6.   Use the leftover wheat seeds to make 2 more batches of rejuvelac.  Start at step 3 again, but soak for 24 hours each time instead of for 48 hours, then discard the wheat seeds.


HOW TO MAKE “PINK CHAMPAGNE” FROM REJUVELAC

1.   Put some uncooked honey in a bowl (about 1/8 cup per quart of rejuvelac). 
2.   Pour some rejuvelac onto the honey and mix thoroughly to dissolve the honey.
3.   Pour the mixture into the jar of rejuvelac and let stand at room temperature for 12 to 24 hours.
4.   Add a small amount of beet juice to give it a pink color.

[PaleoPhil]

...   By the way, I don't think fermented honey is on the primal diet.

Why not? It's made by one of the brands that Aajonus recommends and he recommends fermented meats and fish.

[RawZi]

Why not? It's made by one of the brands that Aajonus recommends and he recommends fermented meats and fish.

    I don't think he's against it either. I just never heard him mention it nor remember reading anything he wrote about it.

[RawZi]

    Practice also helps. Also, I prefer not to grind it.

Here is what I found;

HOW TO MAKE REJUVELAC


CREATIVE HEALTH INSTITUTE’S METHOD:

This method is good if there are temperature fluctuations.  It makes a tarter, more flavorful rejuvelac than the whole berry method.  Also, because more of the seed is exposed to water, fermentation is more complete.  This results in a rejuvelac that is nutritionally superior to other methods.

1.   Soak wheat seeds for 10-12 hours (soft variety preferable).
2.   Drain.  Let sprout for at least one full day (until you see a tail).  Rinse twice a day.
3.   Grind sprouted seeds in a blender.
4.   Put one cup ground seed sprouts into a gallon jar and fill with water.
5.   Let stand at room temperature (68-72 degrees), stirring twice daily for 2 to 4 days.  If the temperature of the room is higher, fermentation occurs more quickly.  Rejuvelac may be ready in as little as 1 day.


WHOLE BERRY METHOD

1.   Soak wheat seeds for 10-12 hours (soft variety preferable) in a gallon jar.
2.   Drain.  Let sprout for at least one full day (until you see a tail).  Rinse twice a day.
3.   Pour water over the sprouted wheat seeds in the jar.  Use approximately 3 times the amount of water as there are wheat seeds.
4.   Cover the jar with wire mesh or cheese cloth.  Keep at room temperature for 48 hours.
5.   You now have your first batch of rejuvelac.  Pour the liquid into another jar for drinking.  Ideally drinks should be at room temperature, so have some rejuvelac at room temperature in a pitcher or decanter and refrigerate the amount not needed.  Rejuvelac will keep for several days if refrigerated.  Use rejuvelac whenever blending because its vitamin E content acts as an antioxidant.
6.   Use the leftover wheat seeds to make 2 more batches of rejuvelac.  Start at step 3 again, but soak for 24 hours each time instead of for 48 hours, then discard the wheat seeds.


HOW TO MAKE “PINK CHAMPAGNE” FROM REJUVELAC

1.   Put some uncooked honey in a bowl (about 1/8 cup per quart of rejuvelac). 
2.   Pour some rejuvelac onto the honey and mix thoroughly to dissolve the honey.
3.   Pour the mixture into the jar of rejuvelac and let stand at room temperature for 12 to 24 hours.
4.   Add a small amount of beet juice to give it a pink color.

[PaleoPhil]

    I don't think he's against it either. I just never heard him mention it nor remember reading anything he wrote about it.

Yeah, I haven't either. I wonder why?

[A_Tribe_Called_Paleo]

Can anyone back up AVs claims about raw honey? How it helps digest meats and fats? I can't find anything on google about it...

I had a terrible reaction to Really raw honey. I ate it with meat and butter. When eating raw honey my bowels transit time increased, and had a massive breakout of acne across my entire face.

Possible that Increased transit time is because honey helped digest more of my meals? Could acne be a detox of some type?

Waiting for my acne to clear up and will try a different brand.

AVs raw honey claims seem outrageous to me. If anyone has any evidence to support it please share!

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, I've tried nearly all the most-touted honeys and the fermented variety of Really Raw honey (a brand that I learned about from Aajonus and other members here) improved my digestion some and didn't give me any acne breakouts like other honeys did (including the unfermented version of Really Raw). Plus, it reduced my scalp dandruff and improved my hair, so that it felt less greasy, thicker, fuller, younger--though only as long as I continued to eat it at least every few days. For economic reasons I switched to a cheaper raw honey that doesn't provide as much benefits, though is still slightly beneficial.

Not everyone likes it, though. I've noticed that among the family and friends that I have given some to, the sickest report that they don't like it.

Maybe it helps that I don't eat large amounts of honey at a time. I've noticed that some people reporting problems from honey reported eating well over the teaspoon or tablespoon or two at a time that I normally eat, and I don't eat it every day.

Coincidentally, quite a bit of positive research about honey was recently shared here:

http://freetheanimal.com/2015/01/paleogate-cordains-coverup.html

As always, YMMV and to each his own.

[A_Tribe_Called_Paleo]

Paleo phil,

 thanks for the link!!! Loved the video!

I don't think I will use really raw honey again, unless it's the fermented type.

Definitely going to experiment with other brands. My friend gave me a glass jar of Wee Bees, seems promising. I want to try heavenly Organics acia honey as well.  Will experiment with fermenting my own honey as well.

Seems like honey is best eaten alone, or with comb/grubs like in video. Food combining seems very important for my digestion. I don't see how It could improve digestion of animal meat or fat(butter), likely will stear clear of those combinations.

[eveheart]

Can anyone back up AVs claims about raw honey? How it helps digest meats and fats?...
AVs raw honey claims seem outrageous to me.

To me, the most outrageous AV honey claim is the testimonial about a type 1 diabetic who ate her way through jars of honey and claims to have completely cured her diabetes.

Even the mere idea that we have to eat one food to help digest another really doesn't set well with me. If we couldn't digest a category of food, we wouldn't have been eating it for millenia. How would paleo man know about his "need" for honey to digest meat and fat, and where is there any evidence that our species used honey with all meats and fats because we needed it to help digestion?