Are Fish Oils (DHA & EPA) bad for us?

[majormark]

I Just listened to an interview about how Fish Oils are bad for us and I'd like to know your opinion on this:

http://www.oneradionetwork.com/health_-_podcasts/diet_and_nutrition/professor_brian_peskin_-_the_24-hour_diet_efa,_peos,_cancer_and_heart_disease_-_10.27.09_200910271346/

Brian Peskin claims two interesting things:

1. These are bad:
- DHA & EPA (because it's messing with the insulin response - unless you exercise)

2. These are good - PEOs (parent essential oils):
- Parent Omega 3 & 6 are the right stuff to get - the body makes DHA or EPA as needed

He also seems to be advocating a low carb type of diet.

If we were to believe the oils are bad than what alternatives do we have for vitamin D except for sunshine?

[raw]

that's really an interesting topic indeed. i just ordered 2 fish oil from blue ice company and that's ( fermented) for $43 each. i found the same one on dr. ron's web is more expensive. i don't know the differences. i don't exercise... and definitely get some positive result from consuming regular whole food's cod liver oil. i found that  contributed tremendous weight gains on me.

[MrBBQ]

Why is it then that aboriginal tribes were constantly seeking to secure the preformed long-chain n3 fatty acids, instead of pressing/consuming nuts/seeds?

Copy nature...

[majormark]

What do you mean MrBBQ? In what way they were doing that?

[Sully]

I think a person should eat whole fish. Then think about what would be available in their location by a natural means with simple tools.  There are many lakes and rivers in Wisconsin. Rivers seem to freeze over. But lake Michigan doesn't, but how could you get fish out of a lake in winter? Well Eskimos actually have collected fish that washed up on shore and immediately frozen. I enjoy the taste of ocean fish, but I don't think many are paleo. The ones I do are the ones close to shore or the surface of water. Also the ones that swim up stream to spawn like salmon. Maybe we should consider eating the ones close to shore and surface of water locally and in season. Indians couldn't eat salmon all year round. You know? So fish is a hard subject. By the way, Lake Michigan is very polluted from what I see and what people say, and from what factories are doing.

[Sully]

Isn't vitamin d in egg yolks, and all animal livers?

[Matt51]

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fishoil.shtml

[RawZi]

I think a person should eat whole fish. Then think about what would be available in their location by a natural means with simple tools.  There are many lakes and rivers in Wisconsin. Rivers seem to freeze over. But lake Michigan doesn't, but how could you get fish out of a lake in winter? Well Eskimos actually have collected fish that washed up on shore and immediately frozen. I enjoy the taste of ocean fish, but I don't think many are paleo. The ones I do are the ones close to shore or the surface of water. Also the ones that swim up stream to spawn like salmon.

    Fish oil supplements, personally for my consumption, have always seemed ridiculous.  I think mostly vegans take them who are and always were and always will be particularly against natural.  They probably think at best that they are taking less karma by only eating oil instead of a whole liver or whole egg or whole fish.  If they cared about ethics for real, they wouldn't leave the carcass squeezed out of oil for someone else to eat and subsequently become nutritionally deficient in the same nutrients they were.  They don't make sense.  Maybe it's because they starved their brains.

[Sully]

    Fish oil supplements, personally for my consumption, have always seemed ridiculous.  I think mostly vegans take them who are and always were and always will be particularly against natural.  They probably think at best that they are taking less karma by only eating oil instead of a whole liver or whole egg or whole fish.  If they cared about ethics for real, they wouldn't leave the carcass squeezed out of oil for someone else to eat and subsequently become nutritionally deficient in the same nutrients they were.  They don't make sense.  Maybe it's because they starved their brains.

I agree. Fish oil supplements aren't as good as eating the whole carcass and it's nutrients in a whole.

[PaleoPhil]

Isn't vitamin d in egg yolks, and all animal livers?

Yes, but the vit. D levels in yolks and livers are much lower than cod liver oil.

These are the numbers for standard egg and liver at NutritionData; I don't know the #'s for pasture-fed:
Egg, whole, raw, fresh 85.1 IU
Beef, liver, raw 4.5 IU (chicken liver is more, but it wasn't listed)

So you'd have to eat a lot of eggs (or egg yolks) and liver to get the recommended 5,000 - 8,000 IUs that Dr. Harris, Stephen Guyenet, PhD and others recommend when not getting much sunshine and vit.-D deficient. Call me crazy if you like, but after reading the sources that Lex also happened to read, and reading Lex's and Tyler's posts on the subject, I decided to give raw cod liver oil and even an additional straight vitamin D boost (note: Tyler doesn't recommend the latter) a try, because I don't want to wait years for my dental health to improve further, and vit. D along with other  key nutrients are claimed by many to have many important benefits, and I can't get as much sunlight as Lex does. I'm not completely sold myself, but I'll report any results or lack thereof.

[RawZi]

    I wish I had you guys and gals here.  It seems so nice to have humans around who understand nutrition.  About the closest I've had to that is a double date I went on  about a year ago.  I got habra nayyeh (without the onions), and my husband's friend's beautiful normally very sophisticated fiance dug into my plate and ate half.  She loved it, I guess she never saw that in a restaurant.  She moved far away right after.  Anyway, I wish I could share meals with you too, often.  I'm taking a break now for some liver or small Vitamin D dose, whichever name you prefer.   

[Nicola]

Can't help but post this for thoughts...from a guy called Christopher:

I think you should probably read Peter's new blog post http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2...n-oil.html


Quote:
To me the message is clear. In the presence of ethanol the determinant of your liver pathology is the amount of corn oil you "drink". Fish oil does the same, the next few posts all use fish oil.

I'm not going to lie, I think it's kinda funny and Ironic that your fear of basic zerocarb not providing you with everything you need has led you to supplement with a lot of fish oil and to make sure you get enough organ meats every week. Then this study comes out possibly showing that all that fish oil you take on a daily basis to "balance your omega 3's with your omega 6's from grain fed meat" has probably been hurting and possibly running your liver into overdrive which in my opinion would explain how bad your dark circles under your eyes are.

Oh ya and I also think you have digestion problems but you are too stubborn to actually give HCL a try which is kinda weird since you have no problem taking other supplements.

http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=1272&page=316

Nicola

[majormark]

After I asked him more details via email, he pointed me to this video where he describes several experiments (not studies) that proved Fish Oil to very unhealthy:

http://pinnacle-press.com/Fish-Oil-2/index.html

He did not comment on the Vitamin D issue.

[raw]

Yes, but the vit. D levels in yolks and livers are much lower than cod liver oil.

These are the numbers for standard egg and liver at NutritionData; I don't know the #'s for pasture-fed:
Egg, whole, raw, fresh 85.1 IU
Beef, liver, raw 4.5 IU (chicken liver is more, but it wasn't listed)

So you'd have to eat a lot of eggs (or egg yolks) and liver to get the recommended 5,000 - 8,000 IUs that Dr. Harris, Stephen Guyenet, PhD and others recommend when not getting much sunshine and vit.-D deficient. Call me crazy if you like, but after reading the sources that Lex also happened to read, and reading Lex's and Tyler's posts on the subject, I decided to give raw cod liver oil and even an additional straight vitamin D boost (note: Tyler doesn't recommend the latter) a try, because I don't want to wait years for my dental health to improve further, and vit. D along with other  key nutrients are claimed by many to have many important benefits, and I can't get as much sunlight as Lex does. I'm not completely sold myself, but I'll report any results or lack thereof.

i completely understand what paleophill saying, b/c my little baby suffers the lack of vit D3 until i give him enough of cod liver oil. i just don't have that much access to get enough sunlight on winter time. i can't take that risk again. my baby doesn't like the liver and he vomits after that. he loves the egg yolks and i'm giving now 5/6 of them. but he absolutely likes cod liver oil which i'm giving him 2 tbsps daily. if i would live in tropical country, i absolutely cut off those cod liver oil, but at this point i can't take the risk.

[PaleoPhil]

...http://pinnacle-press.com/Fish-Oil-2/index.html

He did not comment on the Vitamin D issue.

Yeah, and there's no mention of cod liver oil, or raw fermented cod liver oil, which I take. I take it for the A and D3, not for the omega 3s, which I figure I get enough of from grassfed and wild meats and seafood. Plus, just as the negative meat and fat studies might be due to the cooking (or error, poor methods, etc.), so too with negative fish oil studies. Don't hate the fish/animal fats, hate high-heating, and other processing like refining.

[goodsamaritan]

I don't see why I should take supplements like fish oils.
The reason I go around looking for the ultimate diet is so I don't need to take any supplements whatsoever.
When I want fish oil I eat raw fish.

[RawZi]

The reason I go around looking for the ultimate diet is so I don't need to take any supplements whatsoever.
When I want fish oil I eat raw fish.

    Same here.  I've done herbs up the kazoo!  I'm done with supplements and such.  I would take them if I absolutely had too, but I don't feel like supplementing when I feel better eating good food.   

but he absolutely likes cod liver oil which i'm giving him 2 tbsps daily. if i would live in tropical country, i absolutely cut off those cod liver oil

    He likes the cod liver oil?!? Wow.  I didn't think anyone liked that.  That's wonderful!  I guess his body knows it needs D.  

[Hannibal]

several experiments (not studies) that proved Fish Oil to very unhealthy:

But what kind of Fish Oil? This commercial, heated up to 170 degrees C, rafinated?
Do you know how Lysi cod liver oil is made? They heat it up to 160-170 degrees C, thoroughly rafinate, so that all the vitamins (A and D) are mostly anihilated; and then they add synthetic ones!
They told me that they heat it under very low pressure, so that EPA and DHA stay intact, but I don't believe that it is ok.
So there is very big difference between heated, rafinated cod liver oil and Blue Ice. I'm sure that those experments haven't been made on Blue Ice, which is the only one, that is genuinly raw, unheated and natural.

[PaleoPhil]

Here's one suggestion that CLO may not have the negative concerns of straight fish oil from Peter at Hyperlipid:

"I've seen studies where the A and D content of CLO undo the potential damage of high dose omega 3s but again, not to hand."

Tuesday, December 01, 2009
Cirrhosis and fish oil
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2009/12/cirrhosis-and-fish-oil.html

[majormark]

The key concept seems to be that the body needs the parent omega form not derivatives. Peskin describes the reason here:

http://www.brianpeskin.com/NEXUS%20Hidden%20Story%20Article.pdf

"Most parent omegas do not get converted to derivatives – they remain in the cell membrane and tissues in original parent form."

The raw, unheated oil may be better than others due to the lack of transfats but it still contains the derivatives which constitutes a pharmaceutical overdose, according to the link above.

The other interesting thing about EFAs is that they help with cellular oxygenation a lot.

[PaleoPhil]

The Peskin article at that link also condemns whole fish:

"Consuming whole fish instead of fish oil failed, too.13 That’s why the Japanese have greater cancer rates and greater heart disease rates than Americans."

Yet Peskin recommends canned wild fish, rich in omega 3 FAs in his list of recommended products: http://www.brianpeskin.com/recommendations.html. Why?

Animal brains also contain high levels of omega 3 FAs. I'm skeptical of claims that omega-3-rich whole foods like whole fish and animal brains would be highly cancer-causing given that raw brains are one of the earliest staple foods of hominids and remain a favorite food of HG people today. For example, the traditional Inuit ate lots of whole fish and brains, yet were noted to have much lower rates of cancer than modern food consumers.

That link also doesn't address the reportedly positive benefits of vitamins A and D3 from cod liver oil, which Peter mentioned may make it much superior to straight fish oil. Peskin also recommends a vitamin D book on his website.

Does anyone here take straight fish oil with no vitamin D3 and not much sunlight?
> If so, then you may want to consider getting some vitamin D3, and you may not need straight fish oil if your diet is not high in omega 6s anyway.
> If not, then what are we worrying about?

[majormark]

Good question about the canned fish recommendation. I'll send and email to ask about that.

Somehow I feel that eating the fish may be better than taking fish oils. I cant say that from experience though.

[Hannibal]

"Consuming whole fish instead of fish oil failed, too.13 That’s why the Japanese have greater cancer rates and greater heart disease rates than Americans."

That's ludicrous statement. There are hundreds or even thousands things that can have impact on somebody's health.
Correlation does not imply causation!

[PaleoPhil]

Good question about the canned fish recommendation. I'll send and email to ask about that.

Somehow I feel that eating the fish may be better than taking fish oils. I cant say that from experience though.

I agree, which is why I was surprised that Peskin bad-mouthed whole fish in that article you linked to. Personally, I get the mild-euphoria feeling from wild salmon--sometimes even from cooked--not just from raw GF red meat.

That's ludicrous statement. There are hundreds or even thousands things that can have impact on somebody's health.
Correlation does not imply causation!

Exactly, and it is well known that the Japanese smoke more than Americans, although they apparently have a lower rate of lung cancer. They also eat lots of rice, which is linked to different cancers than wheat, but still also linked to cancer.

I don't like to criticize much, but I have to say that I'm not very impressed with Mr. Peskin's articles so far, though they're not the worst I've seen, and do contain a few interesting points.

[Michael]

I must admit that I've had no opportunity to get on here recently so haven't read the Peskin article.  However, clicking on the link and seeing the Nexus Magazine header is hugely distracting to me as my past experience of it is that it's littered with rather new-agey junk science.  Of course, I may well be wrong in this instance.  The comments about dangers of eating whole fish doesn't fill me with any confidence though.

But what kind of Fish Oil? This commercial, heated up to 170 degrees C, rafinated?
Do you know how Lysi cod liver oil is made? They heat it up to 160-170 degrees C, thoroughly rafinate, so that all the vitamins (A and D) are mostly anihilated; and then they add synthetic ones!
They told me that they heat it under very low pressure, so that EPA and DHA stay intact, but I don't believe that it is ok.
So there is very big difference between heated, rafinated cod liver oil and Blue Ice. I'm sure that those experments haven't been made on Blue Ice, which is the only one, that is genuinly raw, unheated and natural.

I agree Hannibal.  As is often the case with these studies, they're using food sources that we wouldn't dream of using.  The raw fermented Blue Ice oil is altogether different and I wouldn't be convinced of any study results unless they were conducted using a raw traditionally made product.

I am disturbed at this sudden negative attention regarding fish oils at PaNu, Hyperlipid etc particularly as I'm ensuring my breast-feeding partner and soon-to-be-introduced-to-solids 6 month old are taking the Blue Ice FCLO (I'm not giving it to him yet).  Unfortunately, it's come at a time when I'm really busy with other stuff that I can't read up properly on the whole issue.  However, with lack of other sufficient Vitamin D food sources and lack of sufficient sunlight - particularly at this time of year in the UK - I will be continuing to take and give the oil to my family as I'd consider the lack of Vitamin D more destructive.