Round 2: From addiction to recovery

[William]

I also don't think I have a clue as to what real hunger is either as I can't recently recall any signals telling me to stop.

You will get  a signal telling you to stop if you eat enough fat, especially if you eat it first.

 

I still have cravings for carbs and might add them back in sooner than later.

That's it! Carb crabings are caused by low fat, it's how and why people fail - see TD's experiment with eating RZC.

[TylerDurden]

That's it! Carb crabings are caused by low fat, it's how and why people fail - see TD's experiment with eating RZC.

Just to correct one of William's many, many "inaccuracies", I actually ate a lot of raw fat when doing RZC, more so than I'm doing now, even. You see, in those days, I would routinely add plenty  raw marrow or raw suet to any meal involving anything else like raw fish, raw oysters or whatever.

[William]

I actually ate a lot of raw fat when doing RZC, more so than I'm doing now, even. You see, in those days, I would routinely add plenty  raw marrow or raw suet to any meal involving anything else like raw fish, raw oysters or whatever.

No doubt, but without weighing how could you know if it was 80% by calories?

[TylerDurden]

No doubt, but without weighing how could you know if it was 80% by calories?

  Because it would violate the laws of science if the vast amount of fat I was eating was less than 80% by calorie. Like I told you, I was so obsessive re fat that I went overboard. And besides, at the time I'd done some rough checking of percentages of fat by weight(checking marrow etc. on the usda nutrient database ) so it was pretty obvious

[William]

  Because it would violate the laws of science if the vast amount of fat I was eating was less than 80% by calorie.

Your conception of the laws of science appears to be unique.

[carnivore]

  Because it would violate the laws of science if the vast amount of fat I was eating was less than 80% by calorie. Like I told you, I was so obsessive re fat that I went overboard. And besides, at the time I'd done some rough checking of percentages of fat by weight(checking marrow etc. on the usda nutrient database ) so it was pretty obvious

It is possible that you ate way too much fat, like I did, and this, I believe is the cause of the symptoms I (and maybe you) experienced.

[TylerDurden]

It is possible that you ate way too much fat, like I did, and this, I believe is the cause of the symptoms I (and maybe you) experienced.

Well, I did 3 experiments with RZC. 2 I went overboard with re fat, the 3rd I just emulated Stefansson as normal. All failed. But the point is that my symptoms were too severe for the problem to have been due to not enough protein/too much fat etc. And I was eating plenty of raw animal foods, so I'm sure I got the standard 100g a day of raw protein.

I might well try a RZC experiment 5-10 years down the road (I'm such a masochist), but realistically speaking, I never really needed to do those RZC trials in the first place as my health had fully recovered by then. Trouble was that, at the time, I was so caught up in the whole fanatical "carbs are evil/carb-addicts" b*ll*cks on the web re stefansson etc. that I fell for it. At any rate, RZC was undoubtdly the most harmful to my health of all the diets I've tried, even SAD.

[William]

RZC was undoubtdly the most harmful to my health of all the diets I've tried, even SAD.

You are unique. Present yourself immediately to a research biologist - he/she/it can get a federal grant to study you.

[TylerDurden]

You are unique. Present yourself immediately to a research biologist - he/she/it can get a federal grant to study you.

No, I'm just one of many, judging from reports. And given Lex's kidney stones and the bear's throat cancer, I do find claims of perfection for RZers a trifle premature.

[Paleo Donk]

I'm not counting the fat calories but the lamb I'm eating looks extremely fatty. The chuck steaks are also fairly fatty. Unfortunately, I haven't found a good source that has total nutritional breakdown for grass fed critters. There has been a lot of work done on fatty acid analysis but this doesn't do me much good. I'm also not going to switch to ground beef just so that I can get a good reading on the fat percentage.

I've also eaten chunks of marrow this week. It doesn't really have a taste, perhaps a bit sweet, but is easy to eat. I never really crave fat alone, its always been for meat with fat inside. I did have a good bit of marrow this morning when I had no defrosted meat available.

As I said before, I'm eating a lot now, perhaps I have been fat starved this whole time. I don't know.. I just feel like eating a salad with lettuce, peppers, cucumbers, feta cheese, olives, oil... It sounds so good right now and perhaps a pinch of bread as well or maybe some starch like rice or potato.  Don't know, I'm going to keep eating a lot, which should give me all the fat I need even if it does give me extra protein.


The bears throat cancer and heart disease do give me lots of pause for concern though I can give excuses for him since I believe hes eaten mainly cooked grain-fed meat. Lex's kidney stones seem to be rather unique thus far, with few(none?) developing any on the zc board, though most of them are under a year.

My instincts tell me that I will be better off with a little carbs sprinkled in around 5% like I was the first time around when I was faring much better eating cheese, yogurt, cooked meat and veggies. Perhaps its just taking me a bit longer to adjust. Blehhh...just feels like I need a bit of carbs.

[Paleo Donk]

And Tyler, your teeth thing with zc is the most unique exeperience I have ever heard about.

Also, for clarification, I do get a very good stop when I eat nothing but fat. It starts to taste terrible very quickly if it is not attached to any meat.

[TylerDurden]

And Tyler, your teeth thing with zc is the most unique exeperience I have ever heard about.

Also, for clarification, I do get a very good stop when I eat nothing but fat. It starts to taste terrible very quickly if it is not attached to any meat.

  When I started failing with RZC, my appetite for raw meats went down like a stone. It didn't seem to matter, though, whether the meat was fatty or when I occasionally had some lean meats like turkey-breast-fillets.

re the bear:- I never had time to read through the whole boring thread at that other forum so hadn't realised he also had heart-disease-hmm, interesting. As for the teeth, teeth fall out often on other diets such as raw vegan etc. I just found it interesting that the effect was so quick with rzc. Of course, we all come to this diet with different health-problems and therefore different strengths and weaknesses re tolerating certain types of diet/foods or whatever.

[carnivore]

No, I'm just one of many, judging from reports. And given Lex's kidney stones and the bear's throat cancer, I do find claims of perfection for RZers a trifle premature.

I also don't do well with a carnivorous diet for now. I need to balance meat with a bit of plant material.

[carnivore]

Well, I did 3 experiments with RZC. 2 I went overboard with re fat, the 3rd I just emulated Stefansson as normal. All failed. But the point is that my symptoms were too severe for the problem to have been due to not enough protein/too much fat etc. And I was eating plenty of raw animal foods, so I'm sure I got the standard 100g a day of raw protein.

I might well try a RZC experiment 5-10 years down the road (I'm such a masochist), but realistically speaking, I never really needed to do those RZC trials in the first place as my health had fully recovered by then. Trouble was that, at the time, I was so caught up in the whole fanatical "carbs are evil/carb-addicts" b*ll*cks on the web re stefansson etc. that I fell for it. At any rate, RZC was undoubtdly the most harmful to my health of all the diets I've tried, even SAD.

Fat poisoning can be lethal, like protein or carb poisoning. It is why I believe any extreme diet, like ZC, is very dangerous. And their proponents with fanatic claims as well.

[William]

Fat poisoning can be lethal, like protein or carb poisoning. It is why I believe any extreme diet, like ZC, is very dangerous. And their proponents with fanatic claims as well.

Considering that too much fat makes one sick at the stomach, how could anyone get fat poisoning?

Lethal? Never heard of that.

RZC is the most conservative diet I know, what is extreme about it?

[Paleo Donk]

I think you might be right Willy- I gave it some more thought and there is a decent shot I'm not eating enough fat. Perhaps I keep eating so much because there isn't quite enough fat on my grass-fed critters. Last year I was eating only grain-fed meat so I was definitely getting plenty of fat and perhaps this was the reason I was doing so much better.

One major difference this time around are my bowel movements which were nice and solid for the first time in 5+ years when I switched diets the first time. It actually only took a week or so and was a huge relief. I think  I'm partially constipated, if thats possible, and have had multiple miniture turd sessions that don't give me much relief. I had these small softish turds appear about 5 days in a row before finally letting a larger amount go that was of some relief. I've had multiple false alarms where I sat on the toiler waiting for something to happen and getting nothing. I can't recall this ever happening last year and that was on cooked grain fed meat. I'm eating a bit of marrow but this might not be enough. I'm going to try and pick up as much fat as I can from whole foods or the one other place that sells grass fed meat very soon. My hunger pangs are also much more intense than last year. This all points to low fat intake.

I think poisoning from fat is probably hard to do if the fat is solid and raw. There was a point last year when I was sort of enamored with fat and started drinking heavy whipping cream. I could probably force myself to drink half a liter if I had to. I drank a couple large gulps and quickly felt light-headed, possibly because of the easily digestible liquid dairy fats.

I also experimented on myself for a couple weeks last year by overeating for two weeks to see what eating nothing but meat and fat would do to me. I averaged 4800 calories a day with 20% coming from protein and the rest from fat. I heavily supplemented with suet and would never get sick eating as much as 125g of it cooked at a time. I gained 7-8 pounds in the two weeks, contrary to the results of other people who puportedly overate nothing but meat and fat.

I documented the results here - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/85/health-fitness/greeksquareds-extreme-fat-challenge-strength-log-362797/

[PaleoPhil]

I do think that adding fats like suet, marrow, etc., is necessary when eating pasture-fed meats.

[Paleo Donk]

I got a couple pounds of grass-fed fat from whole foods and picked up one a chuck steak as well. I feel bad about getting something for free. The chuck smelled a bit different than slankers. I am a bit concerned about slankers meat being frozen at -14F as it surely must suffer some damage. The damage might be negligible but I found a chart a while back that I can't seem to find now that had meat losing 25% of its Vitamin C and smaller percentages of other vitamins. I may not be remembering correctly so I'll try and find something more definitive later.

I've had one very small piece of chuck sit out now for over a week. Its dried up almost completely and looks similar to a piece thats about to be used for pemmican. There is no bacteria build up on it. Well, I don't know what bacteria build-up is supposed to look like but I assumed it would change its appearance. Its just very dark and very dry. I had another bigger piece sitting out for a 4-5 days that I would nibble off a bit each day. It tastes quite good, better than the freshly unfrozen beef for sure.

I'm going to experiment and start keeping whole pieces of meat out days at a time. So far the drier the better. I've stopped using the fridge to hold the meat and just let it sit out in my room which is usually 75-80F.

Since I've been eating more my weight has gone up 5 pounds to 182. I'm also going to change up my workout schedule and try and be active 5 days a week. I really love playing sports like soccer and hopefully can find some games to play in soon.

I ran about 15 40yd sprints last night without that much rest and felt quite fast. I started timing them as best as I could and ran a 4.88. I felt like I was going faster but this isn't too bad for now.

[carnivore]

Considering that too much fat makes one sick at the stomach, how could anyone get fat poisoning?

Lethal? Never heard of that.

RZC is the most conservative diet I know, what is extreme about it?

I can overeat fat without troubles for my stomach, and suffer many symptoms (palpitation, pain, blurred vision, low energy, etc.).

[cayenne-diet]

Wow,, It's nice

Thank a lot,, 

[William]

I can overeat fat without troubles for my stomach, and suffer many symptoms (palpitation, pain, blurred vision, low energy, etc.).

What is it that you refer to as fat? I have to ask because there is so much confusion due to the anti-fat campaign in recent decades.

[carnivore]

What is it that you refer to as fat? I have to ask because there is so much confusion due to the anti-fat campaign in recent decades.

Whatever the fat : Animal and vegetable.

[miles]

It should be noted that there is a significant difference between:

1) The transition to utilising ketones during which some people, coming from a VHCarb diet seem to be low in energy, and;

2) Low energy due to indigestion of tough animal fat, making the body ill and have no energy.

[William]

Whatever the fat : Animal and vegetable.

Vegetable fat has the wrong molecular shape to properly substitute for animal fat required in the cells; it is used out of desperation in an otherwise fat-staved body.
Not surprising that a person would have unpleasant reaction to eating it.
And there is lots of evidence on this forum that not all animal fat is equally digestible.

[carnivore]

Vegetable fat has the wrong molecular shape to properly substitute for animal fat required in the cells; it is used out of desperation in an otherwise fat-staved body.

References ?

Not surprising that a person would have unpleasant reaction to eating it.
And there is lots of evidence on this forum that not all animal fat is equally digestible.

I have experimented with all the fat I can have, and my conclusion is that hard fat (like suet) is harder for my digestion, and soft fat (like in seafood, pork, butter or coconut) is easier to digest.