Round 2: From addiction to recovery

[KD]

The last time eating all raw(meats) I lasted 6 mo, but ran into some problems that may or may not have even been related, but In the end weight loss was also massive. I still supposedly looked really healthy, but I think in the last couple weeks I was well under 140 (and I mean visibly). I don't know if its my type that doens't seem to be meshing well with raw or its that raw seems to surface alot of nasty things in my body (I lean more towards this, as I've been through some pretty heavy duty treatments and such). As like I said this time around I havn't seen great benefits, but certain things seem to be going well.

I would think if it was just the foods themselves there would be major problems from the get go. I tried going cooked VLC this time around, and although I didn't give it much a chance, the way I was doing it seemed to make sense just to eat raw again. I do read the MDA site occasionally (Primal Blueprint) as well as some Crossfit stuff now, and I'm pretty envious of how loosely they interpret paleo etc...coconut flour pancakes and bacon and such. Other than the 'knowledge' that keeps me raw, I can see eating those things, or things like chicken or some fish cooked as to me they are far superior than their raw versions (I've eaten enough raw chicken to be deadset on this opinion). But these guys who are eating all seared red meat etc...I dunno I'd just assume stick with raw than that. But I might end up doing the former. I want to at least do a few weeks with my high meats when they are done, AS I'd be sketched out eating them with cooked matter in my system. Perhaps if they work they'll be an asset if I choose to go back to including some cooked foods.

-

Heres a few other random things people get tested for.
D, B-12, C- Reactive Protein (CRP), Homocysteine, Hemoglobin A1C, DHEA, Testosterone, Estradiol, HGH,

If you don't have insurance, you might be able to avoid the doctor by using an online lab, other than that, I think most labs require the doctors write up.

https://directlabs.com/Default.aspx?&catid=90&language=en-US&tabid=55

[Paleo Donk]

Thanks for the blood test recommendations, I'll be sure to add those and research others to add. I have insurance, and I suppose I should go to a doctor to take advantage of it, they might actually have something important to say.

Under 140, wow thats really sick. I should have been more fair to my diet, raw foods appear to digest well - I feel nothing after eating them and am never bloated or have that full feeling. Its just kind of odd that there are obvious other signs of maldigestion that I have no answers to at the moment. I suppose it will just take a long time. I wonder what is the worst case scenario for people on years of RAF. It seems like all the long time RAF'ers have done very well, but this could very well just be survivalship bias where we only observe the people that made it and not the failures.

I too start loosely interpreting raw paleo whenever I see other foods. I feel that raw paleo is the answer. It makes tremendous sense to me and seems so superior with respects to all that I have read. It seems so hard to make a case against it, but empirically it is not working for me, so nights like tonight where I was at this huge banquet with free reign to all the food that I wanted to I caved. My mind had an easy way out of this one - since raw pale isn't working, why would it matter if I cheated. Cheating could even be healthier right now, if I am not digesting raw properly and my immune system is attacking me. Probably not, but the chance is there.

Before the banquet, I had fasted til about 4 p.m., came home starving for fat, and had some bone marrow, though I wasn't in the mood for bone marrow - I really wanted some suet, which is highly saturated. Bone marrow is only ~ 30% saturated iirc. I don't have any suet around so I just ate the marrow which quickly sated me in some way. I then tried to eat some raw kidney for the first time and didn't get very far. It tastes like liver covered in some urine. I had 6 egg yolks with lime juice with some trace mineral magnesium - which tastes unbelievably bad by itself and just a drop manages to make the mixture taste bad, but tolerable. The daily suggested amount is 4 drops (4ml), which I cannot see myself approaching ever, since the taste is so bad.

I get to the banquet a few hours later not hungry but willing to eat. I hold off for the first hour but then decide to try some roast beef. I try eating the cooked fat but do not get very and start feeling full and bloated much quicker than normal. I used to be able to eat tons of cooked beef without feeling too ill. Not sure if I am just paying attention more to my body or am actually more vulnerable to cooked meat or both but of of course this cheating leads to more and so I gorged on fruit and ate maybe 15 chocolate covered strawberries. Yum!!! MY stomach immediately bloated up but not as bad as two weeks ago so I was able to remain conscious. I was really craving carbs the last couple days after being nearly carb free for 10 days.

I wonder how much these cheats affect my body. I would assume that one big cheat every so often is going to be very hard for someone adapted to eating mainly raw fat. I think the body fine tunes itself for certain inputs. I also wonder if I'd be more likely to cheat now that my diet isn't working or if and when my diet starts to work, because as for now there really isn't much reason for me to stay on it, especially if you were an outsider observing just my physical symptoms.

I also ordered 20 pounds of suet from us wellness meats, which should be good for a couple months.

Also, good point about high meat. I was letting my meat rot on its own at room temperature or below for a few days to as long as just over a week, I actually liked the rotting meat. I don't think it technically got high but it did have a strong smell and some of it was pretty slimy, though it wasn't anywhere near the sliminess of the meat I've seen posted here. I probably should invest in a small fridge to store some high meat on my own. There is no way I can keep that stuff in my aunts fridge. Its starting to get too hot here for me to keep the meat out in the garage, I'd really like to avoid making her entire home stink, which I think I might have already done so to some extent. So, now Im eating all the meat fresh defrosted or out in my room for at most a day, not long enough for it to get that smelly.

[KD]

Often, you'll need a doc to interpret the results, as its like a bunch of random numbers. Be really specific with any questions, as if something is just remotely acceptable they might just say 'good'.

Yeah, I usually have no digestive issues other than this bout, and the occasional nausea/loss of appetite which might be indicative of something or other, but no undigested matter, discomfort or belching/gas. *shrugs* As for the long-timers thing. I agree. Also I think fundamentally even if RAF is indeed the best diet to maintain health, for some either other tools might be needed with the diet to create it, or other tools are needed before one continues with the diet if they are too compromised (which makes little intellectual sense as other than CW, raw is supposed to be easier on the body than cooked)

As for loosely interpreting, I was merely saying that I can see the appeal of such over eating a diet of just lightly cooked red meats which is cut and dry inferior to raw (even if the cooked version might work better for some). Wearas at least with PB one can claim (traditionally) the variety of plant and animal sources etc and the social flexibility to some degree as healthful... Although when I briefly was following PB, everything others were eating seemed like almost SAD type habits, and I was already trying to target any fungal issues so I was basically just eating grass-fed meat, fish, poached eggs, and vegetables. I wasn't really getting any other fat so I got back into raw dairy, and that didn't mix well with cooked, and the diet was already so limited and I really dislike cooking - especially more than once a day - so I just went back to raw.

I've noticed on the Dirty Carnivore site that alot of the people doing cooked, arn't really doing a whole lot in terms of added fats, However I havn't spent much time there. Would you say this is accurate?

I think if one is not thriving, eventually yeah there is going to be some fuck it type mentality. But also if one is doing fine they might not be as anal about things.

I'm still preparing meals for others and don't have any real cravings, made chicken tonight, and ended up just eating a a few little ounces of raw beef instead. So from an outsider I think that would probably look a lot more distorted than succumbing to some chocolate covered fruit.

-
THt is alot of suet! I think ordering fat is really going to be the only option for me to staying on the diet 100%.

[djr_81]

I had 6 egg yolks with lime juice with some trace mineral magnesium - which tastes unbelievably bad by itself and just a drop manages to make the mixture taste bad, but tolerable. The daily suggested amount is 4 drops (4ml), which I cannot see myself approaching ever, since the taste is so bad.

If it tastes bad you're not deficient in that trace mineral.
My family used to have a good laugh doing the test panel of trace mineral solutions. I think it was a panel of 8 minerals, all in their own aqueous solutions, that you put a drop of each on the tongue to see what you're deficient in. If it tasted sweet/good you were deficient. If it tasted bland you were borderline. If it tasted bad you were fine with that mineral.
The funniest part was we'd have a friend who was over give it a shot and they'd invariably have different minerals tasted completely different to them. Molybdenum, the most foul tasting one of the bunch for me, would be quite plain for someone else while perhaps  Chromium would be disgusting for them and quite tasty for me.
Now that I think of it I will give the panel a test tonight (haven't done it in years) and see what my deficiencies, if any, are after eating carnivore for 8 months.

[William]

I've noticed on the Dirty Carnivore site that alot of the people doing cooked, arn't really doing a whole lot in terms of added fats, However I havn't spent much time there. Would you say this is accurate?

Yes.

THt is alot of suet! I think ordering fat is really going to be the only option for me to staying on the diet 100%.

The last time I bought fat, it was 63 pounds. Rendered, the tallow filled all of my storage, but I won't have to buy any more fat for months.

If it tastes bad you're not deficient in that trace mineral.
My family used to have a good laugh doing the test panel of trace mineral solutions. I think it was a panel of 8 minerals, all in their own aqueous solutions, that you put a drop of each on the tongue to see what you're deficient in. If it tasted sweet/good you were deficient. If it tasted bland you were borderline. If it tasted bad you were fine with that mineral.

I'd like to try that - can you post a source url?

[djr_81]

I'd like to try that - can you post a source url?

http://www.bodybio.com/storeproduct405.aspx
Testing like this is a real eye-opener as it's a clear, instantaneous, and undeniable feedback.

Oh, and here (http://www.spectrumsupplements.ca/content.asp?node=333&cateid=16) is their Canadian counterpart.

[Paleo Donk]

I finally have the pleasure of reporting my first significant piece of good news since starting raw paleo 4 months ago. This morning I awoke to the urge to produce stool, which I did - this very long, dark, dense, homogeneous thick mass came straight down from my ass. I probably should of kept it, like restaurants keep their first dollar bills as a token to my first sign of progress. My body felt very light all day, especially my abdomen/gut area. My body felt very at ease the entire day. The pile of sledgehammers dragging behind me were absent today and I felt like I could easily move around with no pain. I had some mild brain fog but this was probably the best my body has felt yet.

If I had to guess, what helped, it would probably be the HCL pills. Although I did eat heaps of carbs last night, I'm not sure they would have gone through my digestive system that fast overnight. Plus, every other time I have carbed up, I have produced terrible soft turds, though no pain. ZC causes me to become constipated with very thin turds.

So, obviously I will be continuing to take the HCL pills but I do want to get to the root of the problems. I actually stayed up late last night past 1:30 and woke up at 7:30 with energy and the ability to move around. Even when I was up at 1:30 I wasn't really pushing myself, it felt somewhat natural - so perhaps my energy had corrected itself somewhat before my magic dump. I had glossed completely over adrenal fatigue this past four months, just assuming that raw zero carb would cure almost everything. But, it seems there are quite a few people that have had adrenal fatigue symptoms with raw zero carb and I found quite a few threads here with little anecdotal evidence that zero carbs can indeed be difficult for those with burnt adrenals. Not to mention Matt Stone and his latest attack of low-carb almost solely because of this glandular malfunction while on it. This connected with me well, since I no doubt have very badly disturbed my adrenals playing poker, yelling, screaming, crying and breaking computers for the last 5 years. Not to mention doing nearly the same thing when I play sports. So, I plan on looking at getting some raw sweetbreads(adrenals, thymus and pancreas), though this seems to be pretty difficult. If I cannot find them, I will just by Dr. Ron's freeze dried glandular supplements.

I'm also not going to restrict carbs for the time being, for the reasons that there is all this chatter about that zc does stress the adrenals. I was so extremely tired on rzc, that I don't think HCL alone will help me out. I've also followed several other zc journals where HCL did not give them the energy they needed. I will even add cooked starch as this seems to be one of the better choices of cooked foods to add to a diet. I do not think this necessarily optimal or even close, its just that it may have some beneficial effects letting my adrenals heal. Meat and fat will be as raw as ever.

I am hopeful for a full recovery but I think I still need to remove my amalgams and then chelate the metals out - which I have not figured out the best method for yet. I'll probably try something natural first - chorella and coriander tincture before trying Cutlers methods but I still have a lot to research here first. I also want to continue liver flushing and so should be eating lots of raw yolks but might try something more potent with a Hulda Clark type liver flush. I also have a bag of french green clay that I will look into using as an even further healing agent.

KD, yes it seems that not that many people at DC add fat. I think a lot of them still eat grain-fed meat which doesn't need much fat. Many people there seem to be very concerned with weight and not as much with other health issues, whearas here at rpf, it seems there is little discussion on weight on more on finding the underlying cause of these issues. Also, 20lbs of suet isnt that much and I would have bought more if I knew I was going to be staying here longer. I never seem to lose the taste for suet though marrow can definitely give me a stop like it did yesterday. Perhaps my body would like to be fueled more with saturated fat than mono.

DJR, I really hope you are right, that my taste buds can tell the whole story with deficiencies, though I'm reluctant to take your statement as strong as you state it. I've only managed to intake maybe 3ml total in the past couple weeks since I got the trace minerals Mg, and thats not even their suggested 1 day intake. My taste buds don't have an off switch for fruit or other carbs so I'm going to be cautious with listening to them, though it'd be really interesting to take that test.

With that said, I tried to eat kidney yesterday and failed massively, so perhaps my kidneys are fine?  I was also pretty hungry when I tried them. I've had them sitting out now for a couple days and will try them again tonight. If they still taste bad I'm either going to cook them or toss them. Also interesting, is that I had a bunch of liver a week ago or and stuffed it down with ease but a month or so before that I couldn't get through 100g of it. Maybe I need to eat liver more frequently?

I'm also going to probably add some kelp for some iodine as this seems to be connected with glandular malfunction.


This is just speculation but, my digestion has been very poor for at least the past 5 years, if not longer and I might not have as many issues with carbs as I once thought. Cooked VLC seemed to save me at first, but it may have had nothing to do with the low carb content. We shall see

[ys]

you don't look too bad in the picture if that's really you.

i've had 4 amalgam fillings removed in a rather dirty way.  i still have 2 more.  i have not seen any difference whatsoever before or after.  i did heavy metal testing for both stool and urine and both came well below limits.  i heard that hair test is more accurate.

organs taste, mmmm it is all in your head.  liver has very sweet taste, kidney tastes like piss, spleen has very bloody and rusty taste, tongue tastes like any other muscle meat.  i have no issue eating them all.

i have yet to see the benefits of raw meat, but i do think raw meat has more nutrients/vitamins

[Paleo Donk]

you don't look too bad in the picture if that's really you.

lol... I might put up a workout video sometime in the next few months if I can remember to ask my aunt for her camera before I go to the gym.


Lots of ups and downs as usual since the last post. Most up - I've had some good days at school with decent energy. Nothing like I think I should have though. Still it was an improvement until today. Extremely fatigued to the point that breathing was annoying. It was excruciating getting words out of mouth. I head felt sick all morning as well, very heavy and almost dizzy when I would bend down to drink water. I had to step out of class and lie down a couple times because I couldn't even sit in the chairs. Then we had a Spanish festival at lunchtime where I ate everything in site. Plate after plate of mainly rice, beans and small portions of beef and chicken. I could not stop eating, the food tasted so good. I then felt a little sick and sat down and felt pretty relieved. Very comforted, no anxiety and not as much bloating as I had during easter a few weeks ago where I could barely move.

I then got out of my chair and went back for more food - mainly tres leches cake- which is probably my favorite cake and had several pieces of it along with a ton of fruit. This made me things worse and I had to lie down somewhere. I had a pretty good bowel movement first and then went to sleep in a classroom and felt much better upon waking. I'm pretty angry that I can't figure out how to make myself feel better. Maybe its all in my head like everyone tells me. Fuck all of them. Just thinking about what a 10mg adderall would do to improve my energy almost puts tears in my eyes. Fuck sitting behind this computer and bitching. I also injured my hamstring running the bases in softball, so I cannot run or lift. whatever, its always excuses for me. I'm still thankful for what I have. I will find a way out of this.

I'm going to do a Hulda Clark type liver flush soon, perhaps as early as tomorrow.

[Paleo Donk]

Since I've had enormous trouble passing normal stools, have low/non-existent stomach acid, and continued low energy I decided to go through with a Hulda Clark style liver flush last night. All of these signs are pointing to insufficient bile secretion and/or inadequate usage of such bile secretion. There are some pretty good anecdotal success stories over at curezone. Heres the recipe and steps

http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/huldas_recipe.asp

I skipped out on the epsom salts since they taste terrible and MrBBQ warned me about electrolyte depletion. I also replaced the olive oil with macadamia nut oil because of lowered omega 6 content.

I squeezed 1.5 grapefruits to get about 4-6oz of juice and combined this with about 4oz of oil. I was supposed to shake this up well but it was getting late and I didn't have a container so I did the best I could to mix the stuff together. I added a few drops of the black walnut extract and drank the mix within a few minutes. It didn't taste particularly good but it wasn't hard to take down either. I laid down and went to bed pretty quickly. I also heated up and soaked a kitchen rag in castor oil in my attempt at a castor oil pack and placed it around my liver area for a few minutes. I got bored with it and took it off. I only had a small cooked meal around 1 p.m. and fasted after that.

I slept right through the night, woke up and had to poo and had a pretty normal, pretty well formed bowel movement. Nothing interesting at the moment. I feel fine right now. No better, no worse. I didn't feel anything in my liver area or anything different really. This is fine, I wasn't expecting a miracle. I will flush again soon. It can take several flushes to get anything interesting out and dozens to completely cleanse the liver. As long as its not making me feel significantly worse I'm going to keep at it. There are some variables to play with as well - apple cider vinegar, different herbs and oil that I'll be playing around with as well.

Also theres a great little series on youtube that goes into good detail on how important accessible bile is to good digestion..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMPpBMHiiXc&feature=related

[ys]

Video would be nice.

Let us know the results of those flushes.  My hunch is all those so called flushes are nothing more than placebo effect.  But who really knows?

[Paleo Donk]

My hunch is all those so called flushes are nothing more than placebo effect.  But who really knows?

I get mad when people write this, though I am working on just letting it pass. Its just an opinion that differs from mine so it should not really make me mad, but it does challenge my inner belief and my immediate reaction is to get angry.

What makes you say something so strong as you think liver flushing is a placebo effect? Have you read through the hundreds of stories on curezone who claim positive results? Did you see the video I just posted? Its excellent and these stones are not fake. They are real. The sludge is real. It can severely disrupt bile secretion into the small intestines which can cause a host of digestive and auto-immune problems. Just watch the video. Your asshole doesn't tear open and bleed following raw paleo. Mine does and its terrible.

Read through this very accurate account of a man who has gone through 50+ flushes now getting out over 300ml worth of stones over a period of 4 years.

http://curezone.com/blogs/fm.asp?i=985349


Here is where you can find the rest of his journey.

http://curezone.com/blogs/f.asp?f=1196

Heres a tip. If someone is suffering badly and trying something new, you probably shouldn't say anything about it being a placebo, especially since it seems like you haven't read any of the previous. Perhaps you have and you can make a case against liver flushes and if so, then make that point. I realize you said this is a hunch, and you might have just simply dismissed liver flushing since it sounds like crack-potting, but you really should do some research before making such seemingly benign comments.

[ys]

well someone is not in a good mood today.  i don't like you are taking out your frustration on me, but that's ok, i do not take things personally.

but you really should do some research before making such seemingly benign comments

that's the thing, there is no scientific research that i can find regarding flushes.  all there is out there is people's claims and personal opinions.  and you know, people claim a lot of things.

[chucky]

Has anyone ever analysed the stones ? What I know is that these stones are from formation of cholesterol and bile. The real stones are too large to pass.

[Paleo Donk]

Small update - I've had 4 separate bowel movements though I'm not sure any of them are related to the flush. The first three were all good and solid, though slightly painful - I had a rather thick turd that must of tore something minor a couple days ago thats been a little irritating. The last one was loose and like diarrhea I suppose.

J,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallstone

"the real stones are too large too pass" - Another baseless statement. How do you guys make such blind assertions? You could have said that in your opinion or that there is evidence such that but not what you wrote. Sure, you'll probably get defensive now that I've attacked your statement but it is what it is. It could take multiple flushes to wear down the bigger stones until they are small enough to pass through to the intestines. Telmans liver file shows that he was still passing stones in the 3cm range even after 30+ flushes and I'd probably guess that these types of stones did not form completely on their own after this many flushes and were instead much bigger and eventually shrunk

[Paleo Donk]

Update on strength

I maxed out my lifts over the course of the last month - somewhat randomly, since I hadn't maxed in bench and squat for over a year

Bench - 265
Squat - 355
Deadlift - 425

I maxed 275 more than a year ago on bench and so tried 285 to set a new record and got buried. I'm going to do more dumbbell work along with starting to add inclines which I have just ignored. At my peak I had inclined 210x5 and could only get 175x5 this last week. Thats really unfortunate that my strength in benching didn't translate that well to incline. This also leads me to believe that my strength is not very transferable to real life applications. Both squat and DL I probably had more in me.

Parts of my right hamstring are blue and black but I could still get down into a full olympic squat last night with 315 on without any pain, so I guess its healing up on its own.

Weight is up to 190, the carb binging seems to have done it. I did want to get down to the mid 170's for summer but this is really vain and I'm going to do whatever it takes to feel good first.

[Paleo Donk]

I attempted to surf for the first time this summer with horrible results. It was still fun trying and I plan on doing this as much as possible, since I can throw a stone into the ocean from the front porch. I'd really like to be outdoors doing some kind of physical activity for at least an hour 5+ days a week.

Energy levels were pretty decent today, especially after I took a 20 minute time out to breath as deep as I could into my abdomen. I did the deep breathing while sitting at my computer. It took so much will power not to go grab the mouse and surf, but once I got past the 5 minute mark or so I settled in and was able to relax and thats when my energy started coming back to me.

The ground suet I got from US wellness seems to taste significantly worse than the slankers suet which I could eat at will almost no matter what. I left it out for several days which didn't improve the taste. I then moved the suet inside a small fridge I bought, which seemed to make matters worse because of this new plastic smell that the fat was absorbing. Its really unfortunate, because I thought I had a good solution to my raw fat problems. I bought some baking soda to put in the fridge to soak up the smell, so perhaps this will help. I'm still eating some of the suet, it just tastes pretty poor right now compared to slankers.

[Ioanna]

do you buy the suet already ground? or do that yourself?  (didn't know they sold it ground)

baking soda in the fridge has worked perfectly for me.  i change it monthly or so. no smell.

[klowcarb]

Good to know! I was wondering how USW's ground suet was.

[Paleo Donk]

Ioanna, I bought it previously ground and now have 15 pounds in the freezer that I'm kinda dreading eating. http://www.grasslandbeef.com/Detail.bok?no=670

Also, I'm going to prom again after an 11 year absence in a couple weeks. With a date. And she's up for eating raw meat and egg yolks. No reservations at all.  We met during a sand castle building contest this last weekend. Holla

[yon yonson]

Also, I'm going to prom again after an 11 year absence in a couple weeks. With a date. And she's up for eating raw meat and egg yolks. No reservations at all.  We met during a sand castle building contest this last weekend. Holla

nice! well done sir

[Paleo Donk]

Thanks yy, I'm really looking forward to it.

I successfully completed an ice cream and cake liver flush a couple nights ago. They say tres leches cake is the by far the best cake to use because the multitude of dairy confuses the liver and thus biliary action is heightened. So at around 22:00 I ate about 700g cake along with 300g ice cream topped off with 200g blackberries. The anti-oxidants in the berries mitigate all of the harmful AGE's from the excess glucose. I followed this up the following morning with more cake and then later in the afternoon had 800g ice cream to finish the flush. The protocol was extremely easy to follow and produced a tremendous amount of turds. Skin looks healthier as well.

[klowcarb]

Please tell me you are joking! 

[KD]

tres leches. piece of cake.

[Paleo Donk]

Yeah, I was kidding about the liver flushing bit but I did consume a pretty decent sized cake and half a gallon of ice cream within 24 hours. I checked my weight at the gym today and am up to 196 about 10 pounds heavier than 2 weeks ago iirc. I don't really care. Nothing has really made me feel any different energy wise so I'm kind of gleefully jumping off a deep end diet wise. I'm hoping this is mainly water weight. Maybe I'll finally break 200 - I've gotten up to 199 before so this might be my chance!

Got some good news with the suet, its starting to taste better but still not as good as Slankers and the plastic smell seems to be gone, probably thanks to the baking soda.

Got a bunch of lamb and goat organs including some thymus which I will try very shortly, probably a small dose seeing that some people have had some severe reactions to it.

HCL supplementation is grinding to a slow halt. After taking 2-3 my body starts to reject them. My stool is pretty well-formed for the most part. My theory on HCL supplementation is that it only masks underlying symptoms of poor digestive ability. Its hard for me to believe that it magically makes your stomach want to produce more stomach acid on its own and in fact it would make much more sense that it would lessen the stomach's natural ability to produce HCL in the long run. I hope I'm wrong about this but I don't think it should be used for a long period of time, especially when you get down to needing just a few pills. Feeling a burn is a pretty bad thing and perpetually doing so is probably dangerous. I like the way KD described HCL use as a "litmus test" as to how your stomach is performing. I'm not taking them every meal like I did last week and I might just give up HCL for a few weeks or until poor stools come again. Or even just taking one per meal.

Just lifted and had a solid workout with good energy. Incline drastically improved over last time and I worked db's up to 90x5 which is just 5 pounds below my max. I felt very strong with decent stamina. I'm going to start concentrating more on overhead pressing/shoulder strength than benching. Maybe only bench a couple times a month as bench has very little carryover to athletic movements.