Eskimo's and osteoporosis

[Diana]

While obviously people can do very well on zero carb diets, I would worry about bone health long term. I read that in high fat meat diets there is no measurable mineral loss, but what about the Eskimo's, did they not have the highest osteoporosis rates in the world?

Diana

[Hannibal]

but what about the Eskimo's, did they not have the highest osteoporosis rates in the world? 

Today Eskimos eat a lot of junk food.
If you'll look at the health of the traditional Innuits, before thay started to eat European foods, you'll see that they had had the strongest bones on the Earth.

[jessica]

what do carbs do for bone health?

[Diana]

Jessica,  high meat diets have very low calcium/phosphorus ratios. I understand that the high phosphorus of a meat diet makes it very acid forming, and will leach calcium from the bones.
Calcium would have to come from green vegetables especially, to get a favorable ratio, which will be absent on the zero carb diet. Other foods can also have calcium, but it is the balance which matters.

Hannibal, very interesting. Do you know a study or link where I can find this info? This is really intriguing. I have not been able to find any info online.

Diana

[Hannibal]

Jessica,  high meat diets have very low calcium/phosphorus ratios. I understand that the high phosphorus of a meat diet makes it very acid forming, and will leach calcium from the bones.

What do you mean by "high meat diets"? Do you mean lean diets or fat diets?
Re leaching the calcium - it's not true and it has been discussed many times on this forum
Besides there are so many studies that prove your statement wrong.
For example - http://www.low-carb.org.uk/10reasons.htm#reason8
excerpt:
"Reference:
Heaney, R.P., "Dietary Protein and Phosphorous Do not Affect Calcium Absorption," The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 72(3), 2000,pages 758-761.

Summary:
The purpose of this study was to evaluate whether variation in phosphorus and protein intakes is associated with variation in calcium absorption.

Over a 20-year period, 191 Roman Catholic nuns (with an average age 49 years) were studied approximately three times. At each check-up, calcium and phosphorus levels were measured. Both metabolic balance and absorption studies were performed every 5 years. Researchers discovered that there was no relationship between calcium absorption efficiency and either protein or phosphorus intake. Regardless of whether subjects' protein or phosphorus intakes were high or low, there was no impact on calcium absorption. "

Calcium would have to come from green vegetables especially, to get a favorable ratio, which will be absent on the zero carb diet. Other foods can also have calcium, but it is the balance which matters.

You can eat softer parts of bones of mammals and esp. the spine and fish bones of fish, which contain highly bioavailable calcium

Hannibal, very interesting. Do you know a study or link where I can find this info? This is really intriguing. I have not been able to find any info online.

Re Innuits there are books of Stephansson, e.g. "Fat of the land"

[Diana]

Hannibal,

Thanks for your corrections, and thanks so much for the links, these are really helpful. I find this fascinating stuff.

Diana

[Hannibal]

Diana, high meat lean diet, that is zero-carb, is indeed very unhealthy. Eating a lot of protein and a little of fat is unhealthy.
The fat is very important! 

[Paleo Donk]

I found a comment made by Satya, who posts here as a guest, on Dr. Harris paleo blog about the the apparent osteoporosis/bone loss of the eskimos after age 40.

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-forum/post/877806?currentPage=2



Here are the links she provided

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q6qyHDWgk2sC&pg=PA135&dq

http://books.google.com/books?id=3_8hTUOXCiwC&pg=PA236&dq

http://books.google.com/books?id=FhoCbLohEFAC&pg=PA128&dq


One of the comments before has this stated which I didn't check into but goes against Lex's/Del Fuego's experience

I've read a bit about the work of Dr. Michael R. Zimmerman who autopsied several Alaskan and Aleutian "mummies". These mummies showed signs of suffering from osteoporosis, degenerative joint disease, atherosclerosis (although no evidence of mycocardial infarct), bacterial infections including otitis media, endocarditis and pneumonia, parasitic infestations, periodontal bone loss (but no cavities), male-pattern baldness (I only mention this b/c some are claiming that balding is a disease of civilization), and starvation (as the cause of death).

[TylerDurden]

Hmm, the links given only mentioned wild claims re kayak hysteria(whatever that is) and calcium-deficiency - perhaps the osteoporosis claims are elsewhere in the online books but I haven't the time to search. What I can say with absolute conviction, though, is that the Eskimos are incredibly unlikely to have ever suffered from calcium-deficiency while on traditional diets. You see, calcium-deficiency is very, very rare, and usually involves a very high level of dairy(a number of people who are casein-/lactose-intolerant absorb calcium in dairy very badly, apparently) and/or excess intake of processed calcium supplements. It is routinely pointed out how incredibly strong the bones of Palaeolithic man were, and they consumed no dairy/high-calcium-filled diet until into the Mesolithic period arrived.

I'm amused re Satya's contribution. She seems to be a denier-type and migrates from 1 diet to another, always eventually attacking each one in turn. Well, good for her, I just hope she eventually finds what she's looking for.

[RawZi]

... You see, calcium-deficiency is very, very rare, and usually involves a very high level of dairy(a number of people who are casein-/lactose-intolerant absorb calcium in dairy very badly, apparently) and/or excess intake of processed calcium supplements. ...

    My son had very strong dense bones.  He even has an exray prior that shows.  He went on a strict totally ripe raw fruitarian diet as recommended to him by a NHS "professional", and lost a great deal of bone, as proven by wheelchair medical prescription after a bone break from standing (and not standing excessively).  I think this shows yet another way to lose calcium or other bone structure constituents.  Eskimos probably didn't eat many other fruit than berries, and even those not all year round.  His diet diet not focus on berries, but a variety of local organically grown fruit to our temperate climate.  Just thought I'd chime in, in case we think there aren't other ways to weaken some people's bones.

    My bones also started to feel weakened and change after eating only ripe fruit and nothing else but some lettuce for a period of time.  Also when I tried it without the lettuce.

[TylerDurden]

. You see, calcium-deficiency is very, very rare, and usually involves a very high level of dairy(a number of people who are casein-/lactose-intolerant absorb calcium in dairy very badly, apparently) and/or excess intake of processed calcium supplements.

Sorry, I got confused, there. When mentioning calcium-supplements I was thinking of an excessive intake of calcium, quite the opposite of what I should have been thinking of. At any rate, there've been studies done on Bantu women , who are on very low calcium diets, which showed that they had excellent bone-health, free of osteoporosis etc. Vegetarians love to cite such studies.

[carnivore]

I found a comment made by Satya, who posts here as a guest, on Dr. Harris paleo blog about the the apparent osteoporosis/bone loss of the eskimos after age 40.

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-forum/post/877806?currentPage=2

Wow, it looks like the "only human diet" is severely criticized on PaleoNu!
I am amazed that some can believe that a cooked muscle (from grainfed beef) only diet can be healthy on the long term. It is as extreme and dangerous as frutarianism...

[redfulcrum]

I totally agree.  Everyone should eat natural meat.  There is something powerful about the circle of life.  From the grass that grows to that big steak on a plate.  You start messing with nature, the more consequences you have to deal with. 

Carbohydrates are essentially an anti-nutrient.  The more empty they are, the more vitamins and minerals from your body stolen to be used up to metabolize the carbs.  They're already mostly empty in their natural state and on top of that, they contain chemicals that robs your meal of nutrients so you won't absorb it.  Processing them just makes them even worse.  All civilizations that relied on carbohydrates in the past had the same issues as today, without any modern industrial processing.  They were eating a natural high carb diet and still had these so called modern problems.   Pellagra, Scurvy, you name it, they got it.  Look at most of the people from poorer asia.  Short, skinny, and terrible oral health.  I wouldn't dare kiss one of those girls, and I'm asian.   Neolithic diets are very destructive to human health and most importantly, beauty.