Ca/P ratio, does it matter?

[Diana]

One more burning question:

We have been thought that Ca/P ratio is important to prevent osteoporosis amongst other problems.

From this forum I learned that people on 100% RAF do not have issues with too low calcium or too high phosphorus, something to make one think.

Other observations are that people on macrobiotic diets are prone to get osteoporosis, which I think is because of the unfavorable Ca/P balance. It is also known that people do not well on only high fruit (due to lack of minerals), or on the combination high fruit/high fat. Again I thought this could be explained by the generally high concentrations of phosphorus (and acidity) in nuts and seeds.

Now my next question: what happens to someone on a low carb/high fat diet with lots and lots of nuts and seeds, giving a very low overall calcium/phosphorus ratio. Does that make one prone to get osteoporosis, or may it does not matter like it does not matter on the 100% RAF diet? Coconut meat, most nuts and seeds and egg yolks all have excess phosphorus, so it is very difficult to bring up the Ca/P ratio, unless one eats loads and loads of tough high fiber greens. Which makes me wonder: is it necessary? May be there is no need to worry about it?
 I am lost here.

Any insights are appreciated!

Diana

[Hannibal]

It isn't necessary. There is no need to worry abou it.

[Diana]

How do you know?

[Hannibal]

I meant that there is nothing to worry about Ca/P ratio, if you eat healthy raw foods and do not take any medicaments, etc.

[Diana]

My excuses if I was not clear, I meant to say, how do you know that there is no need to worry about Ca/P ratio? Do you have any evidence for that? Or do you just trust the body to take care of itself, provided it gets the right foods?

[Hannibal]

I gave you some link that proves that I'm right. There are much more such links.

[Diana]

I did not see a link in this thread, so assume that you refer to the link given in another thread. That link is referring to studies done with meat.  I assume that you extrapolate that info to legumes, nuts and seeds, but the studies are actually done with meat.
 I guess you are going to say that it does not matter whether it is meat or legumes or nuts and seeds? You still take it from that study?
Or did you provide another link and it did not show up my side?

'The author stated that in a natural setting, calcium intake would automatically increase when higher amounts of protein are consumed. Although calcium loss may occur, when calcium intake is adequate, bone density is unaffected. '

Right, I am beginning to feel a bit better about it now. May be it is time to relax about it and enjoy a wider variety of high phosphorus nuts and seeds, looking forward to it    (I am still not able to do much RAF except egg yolks)

Does that imply that the failure on high fruit/high fat diets has nothing to do with Ca/P ratio, but may have more to do with unbalanced carb/fat ratios and unbalanced hormonal issues?

[Hannibal]

A lot of nuts and seeds are not healthy for humans. We are not squirrels.

[goodsamaritan]

One more burning question:

We have been thought that Ca/P ratio is important to prevent osteoporosis amongst other problems.

From this forum I learned that people on 100% RAF do not have issues with too low calcium or too high phosphorus, something to make one think.

Other observations are that people on macrobiotic diets are prone to get osteoporosis, which I think is because of the unfavorable Ca/P balance. It is also known that people do not well on only high fruit (due to lack of minerals), or on the combination high fruit/high fat. Again I thought this could be explained by the generally high concentrations of phosphorus (and acidity) in nuts and seeds.

Now my next question: what happens to someone on a low carb/high fat diet with lots and lots of nuts and seeds, giving a very low overall calcium/phosphorus ratio. Does that make one prone to get osteoporosis, or may it does not matter like it does not matter on the 100% RAF diet? Coconut meat, most nuts and seeds and egg yolks all have excess phosphorus, so it is very difficult to bring up the Ca/P ratio, unless one eats loads and loads of tough high fiber greens. Which makes me wonder: is it necessary? May be there is no need to worry about it?
 I am lost here.

Any insights are appreciated!

Diana

If you read the book Cure Tooth Decay, the recipe is for 90++ % raw meat, raw fat, raw liver diet.  Tooth decays are cured.  I'll bet it does wonders to bones as well.

I wouldn't worry about osteoporosis if tooth decays are cured on a raw meat diet.

See http://www.myhealthblog.org/2008/07/11/cure-tooth-decay/

[Diana]

Hannibal,

I am  

Anyway, what are we, are we cats? 

[Hannibal]

Anyway, what are they, are they cats? 

They are rodents - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squirrel

[Diana]

Sorry, I edited my message.

[Diana]

goodsamaritan,

Thanks so much for the link on prevention and cure of tooth decay.  This is really shocking information. It really shows how mainstream science has gone astray.

I also think that if this all is true, there is no need to worry about high phosphorus foods, as long as they are natural. Thanks! This is going to make life a lot easier.

Diana

[lex_rooker]

Diana,
I have real life experience in this area.  7 or 8 years ago my dental X-rays showed that I was loosing bone density in my jaws and the dentist told me it would be just a matter of time before I would lose my teeth (they were starting to get loose).  A little over two years after starting a Paleo lifestyle and eating mostly raw meat and fat, dental x-rays confirmed that bone density in my jaws had increased significantly.

You will also find a DEXA bone density scan that I had done this year.  After about 3 1/2 years of eating mostly raw meat, my overall bone density is 95% or more of someone at their peak bone density level (someone half my age), and over 100% of the average of people in my age group.  You can see my DEXA results (as well as annual lab tests) as they are posted as a PDFs in the first entry of my Journal.

In addition, Dr Kurt Harris, a radiologist with 30 years experinece, examined my DEXA results and commented on them in his PaleoNutrition Blog here:

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/9/22/bone-density-assessment.html

Hope this helps,

Lex

[Diana]

Thanks Lex, your results are truly amazing !

May I ask you, when you were vegan all those previous years and not doing so well, what were you eating that time? I understand you did it "the healthy way"? Or did you have a lot of sugar and refined grains?

Diana

[lex_rooker]

Thanks Lex, your results are truly amazing !

May I ask you, when you were vegan all those previous years and not doing so well, what were you eating that time? I understand you did it "the healthy way"? Or did you have a lot of sugar and refined grains.

Diana,
I sprouted grains, beans, sunflower seeds, alfalfa seeds, and a ton of other stuff.  I made nut butters and cheeses, drank gallons of rejuvilac, quarts of wheat grass juice, and ate lots of fruit.  I made sprouted grain breads with sprouted legumes and dates, raisins, or figs.  My bible was "Diet for a Small Planet" by Lappe.  I spent hours calculating bean, grain, and nut combinations to assure that I was making "whole" proteins.  I ate no refined foods of any kind, very little dairy, and no eggs.  I followed all the gurus and even did a 31 day water fast (which darn near killed me). 

What did I get for all this trouble?  I was always cold, had very low energy, no sex drive, my teeth were starting to fall out, I had constant migraine headaches, my blood sugar was rising, blood pressure was rising, cholesterol was over 250, and triglycerides were off the charts. 

Not sure if you consider what I did as “right”, but at the time I was convinced that I was on the true enlightened path.  As for amazing results, it didn’t take much to improve on such a miserable diet.

Lex

[Diana]

Lex,

Very interesting, that sounds healthy enough! I have been thinking about it, wondering why some raw vegans seem to do so well, yet others don't. One reason could be that some people are simply not able to convert the beta-caroteen of vegetables and fruits to proper vitamin A, because of a compromised liver. I think I am one of those, because my liver was badly affected years ago by amalgam poisoning.
Also I know that Vit D deficiency has been linked to raised blood sugars, raised BP etc.

Thanks for sharing! It helps to put everything in the right perspective.

Diana

[PaleoPhil]

Lex,

Very interesting, that sounds healthy enough! I have been thinking about it, wondering why some raw vegans seem to do so well, yet others don't. One reason could be that some people are simply not able to convert the beta-caroteen of vegetables and fruits to proper vitamin A, because of a compromised liver. I think I am one of those, because my liver was badly affected years ago by amalgam poisoning.
Also I know that Vit D deficiency has been linked to raised blood sugars, raised BP etc.

Thanks for sharing! It helps to put everything in the right perspective.

Diana

Paul Nison was a 100% raw vegan for 15 years and recently started eating some animal food after he had a blood test that showed some nutritional deficiencies, despite thinking that he was fine (here is his coming-out video: http://www.youtube.com/user/thedurianking#p/u/18/DFN3wLPoqZw). In this and other videos he explains that it can take years for the body's stores of nutrients to deplete to the point of serious deficiency and he points out that there is not a single example alive today of someone who has thrived as a 100% pure raw vegan their whole life for 70 or more years and there are no living examples of raw vegans in their 90s who have been doing raw vegan for decades. From what he and others can see, 100% of raw vegans eventually include some animal foods in their diet (or die early before they get the chance). Plus, deficiency symptoms tend to be subtle and develop very gradually (because the nutrients are depleting very gradually) so that people don't tend to realize they have a deficiency until it gets severe. I have seen raw vegans who are clearly visibly malnourished claiming to be in great health.

I have experienced the same benefits that Lex reports from adopting a RAF diet. My teeth were loosening, to the point where one was coming close to falling out. Since going raw carnivore my teeth have been firming up, my gum health has been improving, pits in my teeth have filled in and a painful hole to the root of one tooth became resealed with dentin. I just had a panorama-view xray done of my teeth and jaw and my dentist was very pleased with it. All this despite having highly acidic (5.0 to 5.5 pH) urine.

So for Lex and myself, the claims of raw vegans that a meat-heavy diet must cause osteoporosis have turned out to be bogus propaganda. The opposite has proven to be true for us. YMMV

In contrast, I have lost count of the number of vegetarians, raw vegans and fruitarians who have experienced serious dental problems, such as pitting, loss of enamel, caries, gum disease, etc. since adopting their diet--especially those who go heavy on fruits or grains or both.

[lex_rooker]

Very interesting, that sounds healthy enough! I have been thinking about it, wondering why some raw vegans seem to do so well, yet others don't. One reason could be that some people are simply not able to convert the beta-caroteen of vegetables and fruits to proper vitamin A, because of a compromised liver. I think I am one of those, because my liver was badly affected years ago by amalgam poisoning.
Also I know that Vit D deficiency has been linked to raised blood sugars, raised BP etc.

Unfortunately this diet was anything but healthy.  I thought I was getting along well with it for the first few years, but over time the deficiencies became more and more evident to the point where, after almost 20 years I was a mess and could no longer ignore them.  I don't think it has anything at all with a person's ability to process some specific nutrient.  It has to do with a vegan/vegetarian diet being totally inappropriate for humans.  We did not evolve to eat this way.  

I expect your liver was compromised by the foods you've eaten all your life far more than a few amalgam fillings.  Blaming amalgam fillings for our poor health is just a diversion from the real culprit, bad diet.  

Isn't it interesting that we are so willing to blame the fillings in our teeth for our poor health, yet it never occurs to us that the need for fillings in the first place is an obvious sign of severe nutritional deficiency and poor health.  Your poor health started long before you got the amalgam fillings, and the need for the fillings shows that the diet you’ve been eating has not been kind to you.  If you continue eating this way I can guarantee it will get worse.  It happened to me and to everyone else that I know who has chosen and stuck with a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle for any length of time.  A few pills and supplements will prop you up for a while, but it only masks the damage and delay’s the inevitable.

Lex