Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?

[nurture]

I'm looking for some kind of article or proof that raw animal fats are good for the body as opposed to cooked fats. My mom has these really wrong ideas on nutrition and she thinks that eating raw animal fats will clog my arteries. I keep trying to tell her that in the raw unheated, unprocessed form the fats and cholesterol are what we need but she doesn't believe me for whatever reason.

Thanks, thanks thanks in advance.

[TylerDurden]

You need to read everything you can online re heat-created toxins, such as AGEs(advanced glycation end products, ALEs(Advanced Glycation End products, HCAs(heterocyclic Amines), PAHs(Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons), NSAs(Nitrosamines). Basically, all such studies damn cooked foods as being toxic, with cooked animal fats being singled out as being the worst in health.

Here's a point on the saturated fat page which states:-
  "One confounding issue in studies may be the formation of exogenous (outside the body) advanced glycation endproducts (AGEs) and oxidation products generated during cooking, which it appears some of the studies have not controlled for. It has been suggested that, "given the prominence of this type of food in the human diet, the deleterious effects of high-(saturated)fat foods may be in part due to the high content in glycotoxins, above and beyond those due to oxidized fatty acid derivatives." The glycotoxins, as he called them, are more commonly called AGEs" cited from:-

http://www.pnas.org/content/94/12/6474.long

In other words, the paper is stating that it isn't saturated fats that are to blame per se, contrary to current scientific claims, but that it's the heat-created toxins , such as AGEs, formed by cooking saturated-fat-heavy foods, which are really to blame.

Also check out the info for newbies section for the thread "dangers of cooked foods" for more studies.

[William]

This might help: http://www.thincs.org/  or you could just refer to the actual experience of we who eat lots of fat, but most people are so set in their ways that they would rather die than change their ideas.
And die they do.

I don't eat raw fat, tallow which is purified fat works for me.

[TylerDurden]

Forgive William's post, he is  absurdly convinced that cooked/rendered fat is somehow healthy, so is willing to ignore the multitude of scientific evidence damning cooked-animal-fat-consumption.

[carnivore]

I'm looking for some kind of article or proof that raw animal fats are good for the body as opposed to cooked fats. My mom has these really wrong ideas on nutrition and she thinks that eating raw animal fats will clog my arteries. I keep trying to tell her that in the raw unheated, unprocessed form the fats and cholesterol are what we need but she doesn't believe me for whatever reason.

Thanks, thanks thanks in advance.

To be healthy, the fat should not only be raw, but should also be "paleo", which means near the fatty acid profile of wild animals that was consumed during the paleolithic.
Here is a link on wild ruminant tissues : http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v56/n3/pdf/1601307a.pdf
Compared to domesticated animals, wild animals have overall less fat, less saturated fat, more w3 PUFA and less w6 PUFA. Brain (rich in DHA) and marrow (rich in MUFA and CLA), were frequently consumed by our paleo ancestors. This gives us an idea of the kind of fat we are adapted to eat regularly. In general, eating wild animal (game, seafood, wild caught fish and insects?), including organs, marrow, brain, etc. ensure to eat the good fat...

Tallow is clearly an inferior fat as it is processed and comes generally from domesticated animals. It has in addition no existence in human history. Nonetheless it can help beginners who have difficulties to eat raw fat. Or can be a way to preserve fat (like did natives with pemmican).

[carnivore]

Forgive William's post, he is  absurdly convinced that cooked/rendered fat is somehow healthy, so is willing to ignore the multitude of scientific evidence damning cooked-animal-fat-consumption.

And William explains with relevance his constancy to ignore the scientific evidences on the danger of cooked fat :

...  but most people are so set in their ways that they would rather die than change their ideas.
...

[TylerDurden]

The trouble is that there is too much damning evidence against cooked animal fats re lower life-expectancy etc. Now, one can poke one's head into the sand, like William, and pretend it doesn't exist, but that is just foolish(and, ultimately,  suicidal, in view of the increased mortality of those eating diets high in cooked animal foods). May I remind you that William is also an ardent believer in the notion that smoking isn't harmful to human health, and that the practice of smoking has similiar very solid scientific evidence against it just like  the sort  of studies damning cooked animal food-consumption.

In short, attacking a stance because one believes it's unhealthy is fine, attacking viewpoints solely because one feels they are representative of the mainstream/Establishment  is not scientific or rational.

[carnivore]

May I remind you that William is also an ardent believer in the notion that smoking isn't harmful to human health, and that the practice of smoking has similiar very solid scientific evidence against it just like  the sort  of studies damning cooked animal food-consumption.

Really?
Maybe it is just an attempt to save the traditional peace pipe ?

[TylerDurden]

Really?
Maybe it is just an attempt to save the traditional peace pipe ?

[carnivore]

After all, isn't he a Chief ??
 

[carnivore]

More seriously, the trouble some people face with raw animal fat even after several months (like me) maybe due to the wrong kind of fat from domesticated animals (too much saturate, unbalanced w6/w3 ratio, etc.). What are your thoughts ?

[Hannibal]

More seriously, the trouble some people face with raw animal fat even after several months (like me) maybe due to the wrong kind of fat from domesticated animals (too much saturate, unbalanced w6/w3 ratio, etc.). What are your thoughts ?

Have you read "Caveman Cuisine"? - http://www.mercola.com/article/Diet/caveman_cuisine.htm
The excerpt -

Camel fat, from the kind of animal the Neanderthals apparently hunted to extinction, is a whooping 63% saturated! Wild boar fat is about 41% saturated, exactly the same as lard from a domestic pig. Kidney fat-which modern man avoids but which the cave man would have eaten-is highly saturated. Buffalo kidney fat is 58% saturated, antelope kidney fat is 65% saturated, elk kidney fat is 62% saturated and mountain goat kidney fat is 66 % saturated. Caribou marrow has a preponderance of monounsaturated fat, and a small amount of polyunsaturated, but still contains more than 27% saturated fat. Figures for elephant tongue are unavailable but beef tongue is 45% saturated. Bears, which yield 48% of their kilocalories as fat, have a preponderance of monounsaturated fat, the same kind found in olives, almonds and other nuts.

The fat from domesticated pigs are high in MUFA and quite low in SFA. Mutton suet from grass-fed animals is much higher in SFA.

[carnivore]

Have you read "Caveman Cuisine"? - http://www.mercola.com/article/Diet/caveman_cuisine.htm
The excerpt -

Camel fat, from the kind of animal the Neanderthals apparently hunted to extinction, is a whooping 63% saturated! Wild boar fat is about 41% saturated, exactly the same as lard from a domestic pig. Kidney fat-which modern man avoids but which the cave man would have eaten-is highly saturated. Buffalo kidney fat is 58% saturated, antelope kidney fat is 65% saturated, elk kidney fat is 62% saturated and mountain goat kidney fat is 66 % saturated. Caribou marrow has a preponderance of monounsaturated fat, and a small amount of polyunsaturated, but still contains more than 27% saturated fat. Figures for elephant tongue are unavailable but beef tongue is 45% saturated. Bears, which yield 48% of their kilocalories as fat, have a preponderance of monounsaturated fat, the same kind found in olives, almonds and other nuts.

The fat from domesticated pigs are high in MUFA and quite low in SFA. Mutton suet from grass-fed animals is much higher in SFA.

It all depends on

-the tissue :
According to Cordain : Subcutaneous fat is very high in SFA (65%), brain around 30% SFA, muscle fat around 35% SFA and marrow around 25% SFA.
Of course, kidney fat is the highest in SFA, and i am not surprised that Fallon&Enig give the figures for it. But that's not representative of the fatty acid profile of the whole carcass!

-the food the animal eat :
For instance, free-range mutton who can eat acorns have their fat less saturated. Pigs who can eat chestnuts in the forest have more SFA in their fat.

and on what was eaten by our ancestors :
Marrow which was readily eaten is 65% MUFA. Brain, which was also preferred, is only 30% SFA. Wild animals are leaner and have less subcutaneous and muscle fat...

[TylerDurden]

Yes, it seems that Mercola and the WAPF/Sally Fallon et al, all make the mistake of assuming that Neolithic diets and practices were "caveman" practices. Quite the contrary, palaeo man never consumed salt, and he didn't consume fat-heavy grainfed animals, just leaner wild game etc.

[Hannibal]

Paleo man consumed SFA, MUFA and PUFA - ratio depended on the animal they hunted and the parts of the animal they consumed
Besides the hotter the region the more saturated the fatty acids of adipose tissue - in the arctic regions there is more PUFA; in the tropical regions there is more SFA

[Paleo Donk]

Forgive William's post, he is  absurdly convinced that cooked/rendered fat is somehow healthy, so is willing to ignore the multitude of scientific evidence damning cooked-animal-fat-consumption.

There was some discussion, not too long ago I think, about the differences between rendered tallow and cooked fat. IIRC, there was a stalemate but little evidence that showed if there truly was toxins present in tallow that aren't in raw animal fat. I just looked back and you posted a link about a study done about the toxins in the tallow

 http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jf00070a016?cookieSet=1

The intro and first couple of paragraphs were all that was freely available

The present study was initiated to investigate whether the cholesterol in tallow will undergo oxidation when it is heated at elevated temperatures similar to deep fat frying and specifically concerned the disappearance of cholesterol and appearance of oxidized  cholesterol derivatives (OCDs)

Though there were at least 4 OCD's found, the tallow was heated to 155 C (311 F) far above what it is when made originally made. After 376 hours of heating 10% of the cholesterol had been oxidized. There is also no where to check what kind of tallow it was and how it was originally made which further complicates things. But if I'm reading the paragraphs correctly it seems this study would be inconclusive with regards to whether or not there are actualy toxins in the fat in pemmican.

The original thread can be found here http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/different-fat/70/

[goodsamaritan]

My first hand experience with fat therapy was when my brother was almost dying and deathly cold in 2007.  A doc suggested we give a lot of Omega 3 FATS in fish oil capsules to my brother.  But my herbalist / healer was pretty angry at me for using processed supplements on my brother.  I gave in and instead bought fresh RAW TUNA with all the RAW OMEGA 3 FATS and my brother ate 1/2 kilo in one sitting at lunch.  Within 24 hours his cold feelings immediately stopped.

I was hooked!  Wow!  That is the power of RAW FAT.

[goodsamaritan]

Raw fat in treatments:

To cleanse livers, we do liver flushes.  Liver flushes are achieved by using a lot of fat.  Usually cold pressed virgin olive oil.  A raw paleo liver flush variation I also do is using fertilized egg yolks. http://www.curemanual.com/detox-protocols/liver-flush/edwin-2day-apple-juice-fast-liver-flush

To get rid of candida / yeast, there is VCO Detox http://tinyurl.com/vcodetox which is a 100% raw fat therapy diet with 0% protein and 0% carbs.

[raw]

Raw fat in treatments:

To cleanse livers, we do liver flushes.  Liver flushes are achieved by using a lot of fat.  Usually cold pressed virgin olive oil.  A raw paleo liver flush variation I also do is using fertilized egg yolks. http://www.curemanual.com/detox-protocols/liver-flush/edwin-2day-apple-juice-fast-liver-flush

To get rid of candida / yeast, there is VCO Detox http://tinyurl.com/vcodetox which is a 100% raw fat therapy diet with 0% protein and 0% carbs.

thanks gs. great info. my husband is very interested...

[goodsamaritan]

I have a customer who sells new zealand green mussel fats / lipids + extra virgin olive oil in capsules called Lyprinol.  See http://www.lyprinol.com

In the book Death to Diabetes, the author is of limited knowledge still so recommends extra virgin olive oil as his "best" fat... a lot of it in treating diabetes with super meals.  His super meal is seared wild salmon + slightly steamed organic broccoli + extra virgin olive oil. http://diabetes.curemanual.com/2008/07/watch-ex-diabetic-dewayne-teach-how-diabetes-is-cured/

Of course we know better raw fats today than extra virgin olive oil.



 

[wodgina]

GS how can you store raw plant fats like olive oil/VCO without them going rancid within a few short days?

[invisible]

Studies on raw meat is often not carried out because it's probably thought that it would be too dangerous because of bacteria, e coli etc. to even attempt. However I have a feeling your mother 'knows' that raw animal fats are bad for you and no study, no matter how convincing and accurate would change her mind.

[TylerDurden]

There was some discussion, not too long ago I think, about the differences between rendered tallow and cooked fat. IIRC, there was a stalemate but little evidence that showed if there truly was toxins present in tallow that aren't in raw animal fat. I just looked back and you posted a link about a study done about the toxins in the tallow

 http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jf00070a016?cookieSet=1

The intro and first couple of paragraphs were all that was freely available

Though there were at least 4 OCD's found, the tallow was heated to 155 C (311 F) far above what it is when made originally made. After 376 hours of heating 10% of the cholesterol had been oxidized. There is also no where to check what kind of tallow it was and how it was originally made which further complicates things. But if I'm reading the paragraphs correctly it seems this study would be inconclusive with regards to whether or not there are actualy toxins in the fat in pemmican.

  On the contrary, the evidence is quite clear, that heat oxidises cholesterol. Of course, there are far more studies done on cooked animal fats, in general, with only a handful done on tallow(unsurprising as tallow is hardly eaten by anyone  any more). The main point is, though, that fat is not some substance that remains magically unaffected by heat. Simply put, heating any  food damages it and changes it in numerous ways, changing its texture, destroying enzymes, adding heat-created toxins etc. Merely rendering a fat isn't going to solve those problems.

Someone, in referring to the dangers of rendered fats, quoted from an online text:-
> "Furthermore, [in cancer] there is commonly a deterioration in the
> lipid (fat-related) composition of the cell walls that allows toxins
> to enter the cells, and prevents waste residue from being removed. The
> main cause of this deterioration is the habitual consumption of heated
> or oxidized fats, and a deficiency of omega-3 fatty acids as in fish
> oils and linseed oil [and, he should have added, in grassfed animal
> fat]."


taken from:-  http://www.health-science-spirit.com/cancer1-overview.html

[William]

  The main point is, though, that fat is not some substance that remains magically unaffected by heat. Simply put, heating any  food damages it and changes it in numerous ways, changing its texture, destroying enzymes, adding heat-created toxins etc. Merely rendering a fat isn't going to solve those problems.

Surprising, then, that so many could eat only pemmican for so long and remain in perfect health. This includes the polar explorers, who lived in the most difficult and demanding conditions known, where illness=death.

Someone, in referring to the dangers of rendered fats, quoted from an online text:-
> "Furthermore, [in cancer] there is commonly a deterioration in the
> lipid (fat-related) composition of the cell walls that allows toxins
> to enter the cells, and prevents waste residue from being removed. The
> main cause of this deterioration is the habitual consumption of heated
> or oxidized fats, and a deficiency of omega-3 fatty acids as in fish
> oils and linseed oil [and, he should have added, in grassfed animal
> fat]."

Pemmicaneers eat neither heated or oxidized fats, nor do we lack omega-3 fatty acids, so no worries about cancer.
Furthermore, cancer cannot exist in a properly oxygenated system which we create by eating pemmican. This has been known since the 1930s. (Warburg)


taken from:-  http://www.health-science-spirit.com/cancer1-overview.html

[goodsamaritan]

GS how can you store raw plant fats like olive oil/VCO without them going rancid within a few short days?

I honestly don't know the chemistry behind it but they do keep quite well.
Maybe it is just the way they are.

I see VCO and EVOO as mere treatment fats.  They are purified.  They are not mainstay everyday fats for eating.  I do not think they are paleo.  Animal fats, now those rock, they taste much better too. VCO and EVOO is like taking medicine. Yuck.